Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

[Mr. Reindeer]

.. on recasting ..

Terrific points all around, particularly on Bowie being a potential distraction. I guess we all have our own hang-ups. And I do agree that, if they did recast, Weller could have been a great Jeffries.

Film is a visual medium

This doesn't detract from the point you were making, but still have a pedantic reflex response to this statement which (as a soundie) rubs me the wrong way. Audiovisual medium!

Fair! Lynch would certainly have cringed at my poorly-chosen words as well.

[FredMadison]

So, to me, that’s Ed’s dream or final wishes flashing by… as he is dying, perhaps. That sequence seemed a little too driven by Ed to be full-on reality.

When the convenience store disappears and glitches into the woods (after Bad Coop’s visit), there’s smoke billowing out of it. And that place just looks like Ed’s gas station to me. As if Ed set his gas station on fire with those matches we saw him playing with in the previous episode.

[Deep Thought]

So, to me, that’s Ed’s dream or final wishes flashing by… as he is dying, perhaps. That sequence seemed a little too driven by Ed to be full-on reality.

When the convenience store disappears and glitches into the woods (after Bad Coop’s visit), there’s smoke billowing out of it. And that place just looks like Ed’s gas station to me. As if Ed set his gas station on fire with those matches we saw him playing with in the previous episode.

+1

[kornishpyxee]

I know you don't like extreme speculation so let me just say neither do I. But what that scene seemed to me was that Big Ed practically closed his eyes and willed Norma into his arms. I think it's probably "real" but at the same time that was where my mind went, that it was so perfect and dreamlike. All in all, one of Lynch's greatest scenes.

I was thinking the same thing. The first time i watched it, I thought Ed was up to something when he had his eyes closed--especially after all the discussion about his reflection's antics. But the second time i watched it, I noticed Norma and Walter's conversation started before Ed had his eyes closed. I was watching with my mom both times, and she thought Ed was praying.

Jenn (kornishpyxee)

[AJPRR2GO]

Too bad about the Jeffries date mixup. More TP date problems...

It is actually correct, the last time Cooper saw Jeffries was in 1989. In the original script for FWWM that scene takes place after the "one year later" point and after we have been introduced to Twin Peaks and Laura Palmer. So I assume that is when it was originally meant to take place, but in editing they decided to move the scene to the 1988-part of the film...

I know that the scene takes place in 89 in the script. But in the movie it takes place in 88 when Desmond disappears during the Banks investigation. Certainly the final movie is more canon than the script?

Very possible that they used scripts as reference points and for fact checking.
Far easier than going back over the video/audio each time you want to check something.
Could explain how some of the dates don't line up if they were changed post scriptwriting.

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[FredMadison]

And "threshold" obviously reminded me of "dweller on the threshold". http://www.metrolyrics.com/dweller-on-t ... rison.html

[Another owl]

Have to say: it's so funny seem some of you "celebrating" an (supposedly) return of Cooper....on the 16th episode!!! On a total of 18..

Let's face it. This is going bad. The Big Ed and Norma scene was like they rushed things in. Like "ok, we are obligated to show some old carachters so people don't complain. Just put them togheter in a total of 3 minutes and get over with it". But maybe he forgot that some fans NEVER complain. NEVER. Not even about yet another scene of Dougie eating a cake. "Wow! We are witnessing history". Really?
Some of you guys want this to be true so bad that it doesen't even matter that what we are witnessing, really, is a boy with a rubber glove that gave him superstrenght.
Lynch had all the money in the world to make Jeffries a tea kettle? Really? It's that ok for you? None of the new carcathers was well development (Beverly Paige? Beverly Paige's Husband? All the carachters in the Roadhouse? The list goes on and on).
Well, if some of you guys are enjoiyng it, that's fine. I resapect that. Really. And, hey, the show still have some good moments. Episode 8 was really awesone. But don't try so hard to put everithing Lynch does in the "genius work" category. The guy deserves some critics, after all. A lot of them, actually. This new TP it's in on the top of list, sadly.

[Hester Prynne]

Maybe she left her cabin to Cooper and he can live the rest of his life there assuming he wakes up.

I love this idea

[N. Needleman]

Let's face it. This is going bad.

K

[Normonaut]

Have to say: it's so funny seem some of you "celebrating" an (supposedly) return of Cooper....on the 16th episode!!! On a total of 18..

Let's face it. This is going bad. The Big Ed and Norma scene was like they rushed things in. Like "ok, we are obligated to show some old carachters so people don't complain. Just put them togheter in a total of 3 minutes and get over with it". But maybe he forgot that some fans NEVER complain. NEVER. Not even about yet another scene of Dougie eating a cake. "Wow! We are witnessing history". Really?
Some of you guys want this to be true so bad that it doesen't even matter that what we are witnessing, really, is a boy with a rubber glove that gave him superstrenght.
Lynch had all the money in the world to make Jeffries a tea kettle? Really? It's that ok for you? None of the new carcathers was well development (Beverly Paige? Beverly Paige's Husband? All the carachters in the Roadhouse? The list goes on and on).
Well, if some of you guys are enjoiyng it, that's fine. I resapect that. Really. And, hey, the show still have some good moments. Episode 8 was really awesone. But don't try so hard to put everithing Lynch does in the "genius work" category. The guy deserves some critics, after all. A lot of them, actually. This new TP it's in on the top of list, sadly.

You are kind of accusing us of forcing ourself to interpret something in a positive way, while you are interpreting something to fit your negative view.

It's very common in storytelling to have a super happy moment before things turn to shit. I knew when we saw that scene that this episode would be "dark". It's a classic move and happens time and time again. That's the purpose of this scene. To finish their story in a satisfying way. The build-up has been going on since 1990, so I don't think we can say it came out of nowhere. Just because you feel like it's fanservice, doesn't mean it actually is. Why WOULDN'T we see parts of the lives of some of the major players from S1 and 2? It was a perfect setup for what is to come. The darkness of this episode, and, potentially, the return of "light" to Twin Peaks.
A lot of people are complaining about the green glove dude, why are you making it seem like everyone is praising it?
Jeffries isn't a tea kettle, that's just you trying to make it sound worse than it is by degrading it. Basic argument technique. A lot of people who like the episode aren't happy with the Jeffries appearance either. Just like people would be divided if there was a recast. These are all opinions, and only one of them is yours.
You open with 3 paragraphs criticising us for liking this, then say you respect it IF we really are enjoying it?

What you're saying is basically "I don't like this, and I don't understand why you do. You are wrong, this is not good".
That's your opinion, please don't try to ridicule others for not sharing it. I genuinely love this season, and I'm more of a TP fan than a Lynch fan.

Let's face it. This is going bad.

K

Kudos for using so few words to say what I did with half a book

[Mr. Reindeer]

It is actually correct, the last time Cooper saw Jeffries was in 1989. In the original script for FWWM that scene takes place after the "one year later" point and after we have been introduced to Twin Peaks and Laura Palmer. So I assume that is when it was originally meant to take place, but in editing they decided to move the scene to the 1988-part of the film...

I know that the scene takes place in 89 in the script. But in the movie it takes place in 88 when Desmond disappears during the Banks investigation. Certainly the final movie is more canon than the script?

Very possible that they used scripts as reference points and for fact checking.
Far easier than going back over the video/audio each time you want to check something.
Could explain how some of the dates don't line up if they were changed post scriptwriting.

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The Jeffries scene is also 1989 in TMP, which was presumably the cut of that scene DKL most recently watched while they were writing the script.

[Deep Thought]

Have to say: it's so funny seem some of you "celebrating" an (supposedly) return of Cooper....on the 16th episode!!! On a total of 18.. [snip] Lynch had all the money in the world to make Jeffries a tea kettle? Really? It's that ok for you? None of the new carcathers was well development (Beverly Paige? Beverly Paige's Husband? All the carachters in the Roadhouse? The list goes on and on).

Character development is one way to tell a story, but not the only way, e.g. Homer. As David Nevins says (at least with DL's blessing and maybe his words), “the core of it is Agent Cooper’s odyssey back to Twin Peaks.” A very specific word, "odyssey," maybe look it up. It is exactly what we are getting, and I am in awe that Nevin's signed off on this and I feel lucky to be able to experience this happy capitalist "accident." I have always looked mostly to the socialist and communist systems for films like this, but seeing so many American productions now creeping towards niche audiences, it gives me hope we'll get more like this (without subtitles) in the future.

[Jasper]

Are we sure Bob is out of Mr. C? Doesn't have "have something they want"? Maybe the woodsmen were just tending to Bob in 8, making sure he was still "okay"? I don't think it's clear if Bob is out of Mr. C or not yet.

We did not see bob leave, just rise to the surface, personally the arm wrestling scene convinced me that bob is, in fact, still in Doppelcoop

If that's the case then what was the point of showing him? It's a little odd Bob hasn't been mentioned at all since then, and I felt like when Mr. C went to see Jeffries he wasn't in as powerful a position as he would be with Bob.

I think Mr. C was dying, so BOB was exiting the body. BOB didn't actually want to leave, because things weren't ever going to get much better than riding along with Mr. C and collecting so much garmonbozia. So the woodsmen intervene to heal Mr. C before BOB completely separates, thus preserving their union. If it had been Mr. C without BOB, there may have been no woodsmen intervention.

[Jasper]

I think Mike was using Ray to achieve his goal of Bob/Doppelcoop to return to the lodge and he was pretending to be Jeffries

It stands to reason, since whomever impersonated Jeffries (and manipulated Ray) was also able to furnish Ray with the Owl Cave Ring in his prison cell.

It's the same old fight over garmonbozia--with new pawns.

This all sounds right to me. Unless there is some other player in the Black Lodge pulling some strings. But these suggestion of it being Mike definitely sound right, for the most part. But the mystery phone call from earlier on has some odd stuff in it. "Just called to say goodbye" -- OK that makes sense if this is really Mike. But "then I will be with Bob again"? That doesn't seem to fit quite so well. Unless he's just talking about trapping Bob in the lodge (and is tired of only hanging out with the talking electro-tree).

BOB and MIKE had a marriage ("With this ring, I thee wed."), in which BOB seemed to be specially tasked with harvesting garmonbozia for the lodge. MIKE is supposed to be the top dog (and in the original series, he refers to BOB as his "familiar", which is like a black cat to a witch). BOB (chaotic evil) goes rogue and steals the corn for himself rather than taking it to the lodge (where MIKE is lawful evil, or arguably lawful neutral). In keeping the corn for himself, BOB gains ever greater power, which threatens the power balance of the lodge.

In FWWM, MIKE is trying to get BOB back under control, and prevent him from possessing Laura (which would mean greater power for BOB due to Laura's special nature) and from taking all of the Laura/Leland garmonbozia for himself (again, greater power for BOB).

In The Return, BOB has been out with Mr. C for 25 years, thus presumably harvesting garmonbozia in the most potent way, so MIKE/Gerard is trying to end this situation in order to prevent BOB from acquiring ever more power, and also to bring BOB back under control as a garmonbozia harvester (as per their marriage contract).

MIKE/Gerard and The Arm come across as good and helpful in The Return, but they are unlikely to be helping Cooper out of any kind of altruism, but rather as a way of neutralizing Mr. C and ending his powerful union with BOB.

[Hester Prynne]

I love the Garland Briggs as Judy theory - doesn't he say "Judy Garland" at the end of Season 2 when he's in the conf. room at the sheriff's dept and out of his mind on that stuff W. Earle gave him or am I misremembering?

Wasn't sure if I should post this here or the Judy thread, but I think Audrey could be a contender for Judy, as well. Just did a rewatch, and it's interesting that after Evil Coop's repeated question of "Who's Judy," and being told it's someone he had met, that the scene which follows is a name drop of Audrey Horne being Richard's mother. Also, when Audrey said she was tired of waiting for the phone to ring, it reminded me of the phone ringing in the convenience store/motel and Evil Coop materializing on the other end. A little out there, I know, but just thought it was interesting that they threw in Richard's mom reveal in after the repeated Judy references.