Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

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thedarktrees
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by thedarktrees »

ScarFace32 wrote:
vicksvapor77 wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:It's funny that probably the two most successful actors on the show (Tim Roth & Jennifer Jason Leigh) are the worst. I honestly hate both of them now.
You hate their acting? Or their characters?
Both but especially their acting. The way Jennifer Jason Leigh killed them and then was on the phone like "fries and ketchup"..it was just so bad

Yeah, I agree with this one. Chantal & Hutch are pretty cringe-inducing bad. The whole fast food thing being used to show us just how vicious and heartless they are in casually killing people is just terrible. Easily my least favorite characters, and to my mind the absolute thinnest and weakest ones in the whole show.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by Nighthawk »

Ashok wrote:
Hester Prynne wrote:But I think if Cooper makes it out of this season alive,it will be as equally hard to resubmerge himself in a world where he's constantly reminded of the life experiences and people he missed out on. I think he could easily become quieted, more of a recluse, after this whole experience sadly. My guess is this is why Janey-E and Sonny-Jim are in the story, so that our hero has the option of living the life he missed out on, even if it's not the one he chose.
As much as I want Cooper to return to the FBI and perhaps get reinstated, I'm going to miss Janey-E and Sonny-Jim. I really hope Janey-E learns the whole truth about Coop and his connection with Diane. I'll be over the moon if she decides to stay by Agent Cooper's side once Season 3 reaches its conclusion.
It doesn't seem like Cooper returning to the FBI is plausible after all the shenanigans that Doppel Coop has pulled. I suspect that the end for Cooper will be him ascending to the White Lodge. The question is what is to happen to Janey/Sonny, unless that idyllic Las Vegas house, complete with a family is what the Lodge life will look like.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by Ross »

Dom834 wrote:
cgs027 wrote:Again, I don't want this to devolve into Sherilyn-bashing or reliving the pre-production/production drama around it, but I just can't help but feel like all of those real-life elements conspired in Audrey's story (or at least some of the dialogue she's been given). "
The "angry tweets" happened several months after filming had wrapped and rather on the eve of the launch of the marketing campaign. By all evidence, Sherilyn was targeting Showtime execs and the minimal role they had planned for her in marketing the show. That's why she was saying it was all about Kyle, Kyle, Kyle and only him was being respected.

Sherilyn has given interviews since about her work on set and about Mark and David. Nothing's apparently changed since the days in which she was the leading cheerleader mounting a "No Lynch, no Twin Peaks" campaign on social media. She is still calling David a genius, still saying during a conversation they had on set he opened the door to doing more if it was well received. She talked about having a terrific time on set, and about being quite delighted by what Mark and David wrote for Audrey's character. She even did a co-interview along Mark Frost. When rumors spread because she wasn't at the premiere, she quickly and a bit angrily posted that she was sick and that was the sole reason she couldn't be there. She's also spoken quite positively about episodes that she's watching every week.

It looks like a pure urban legend that she had a falling out with David or Mark or that she wasn't pleased with her role.
There is much more to the behind the scenes problems with Sherilyn than we know, I'm sure.
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Rhiannon
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by Rhiannon »

I wonder whether Janey E is screaming because Cooper vanishes right before her eyes when he sticks the fork into the socket, possibly returning to the Lodge through the socket?
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by opium »

Deep Thought wrote:
opium wrote:Telling someone to trust "the masters" while essentially saying they just don't get it is far more condescending.
Yes, if someone were to say that it would be condescending. I never said anything like that though. I said I am keeping an open mind because I am giving DL/MF the benefit of the doubt. Not sure where you got the "just don't get it" part.
opium wrote:And the poor parts are pretentious, no doubt 'bout it. Watching a guy sweep for 10 mins to test "audience patience" is pretentious and a poor execution. There are many ways to create ideas and engage audience - or testing them, however you wanna phrase it - but sitting there watching Jacoby paint or a guy sweep is not good, and whatever meaning you derive from it doesn't account that it breaks up the pacing and flow of the episodes.

Pretension exists when something grand is executed poorly. And saying something is pretentious doesn't accuse anything of the audience, but only of the artist.
You're begging the question. See here, you are claiming your personal taste as the arbiter of good/poor execution. The viewers who approve of a "poor" scene are directly belittled for enjoying an "objectively" pretentious one, when in fact it is just a scene you don't like. That's fine. I think Hulk Hand is terrible, but I know some people love it. Do I need to know whether you like it or not before I can determine if it is pretentious? Btw, I love the floor sweeping, hate the shovel painting. Go figure.

It might have something to do with what we are used to. Compared to my usual preferred (often described as pretentious) books, music, and movies, TR is moving along very briskly indeed.
I re-read your reply to Jonah and I concede that I misunderstood it. My apologies.

But I shouldn't have to tell anyone it's my "personal taste." It should be obvious that they're opinions due to the fact that, well, I'm saying them and we're talking about entertainment, which is ultimately subjective. But I think, objectively, these scenes *do* break the pacing. I think any technical writer will tell you they do. Whether or not you derive entertainment from them is up to you, but I firmly believe the same concept could have been applied more creatively instead of what we got. You seem to be projecting a lot on me using pretension to describe the attitude of Lynch in applying these scenes, but you can call it whatever you want - *I* felt they were poorly done grand ideas, and calling it pretentious fits the bill in that it missed the mark for me and made me groan because I knew the ideas that were trying to be put across.

If you like "pretentious" material then fine, but that doesn't make the critique by critics less valid. And it doesn't make your love of it less valid either.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by wxray »

thedarktrees wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:
vicksvapor77 wrote:
You hate their acting? Or their characters?
Both but especially their acting. The way Jennifer Jason Leigh killed them and then was on the phone like "fries and ketchup"..it was just so bad

Yeah, I agree with this one. Chantal & Hutch are pretty cringe-inducing bad. The whole fast food thing being used to show us just how vicious and heartless they are in casually killing people is just terrible. Easily my least favorite characters, and to my mind the absolute thinnest and weakest ones in the whole show.
Definitely caricatures. It seems like JJL and Roth are enjoying themselves way too much. JJL is a bit over the top, like she was in Hudsucker Proxy. These two can act, so this is what DKL wanted, better or worse. The cartoon hit in this episode looked like it was done by a BUF summer intern. Or is it again the cartoon feel? Is this a poke at the Windom Earl character?

I dunno. I like both actors but I'm kind of just tolerating them and laughing, uncomfortably, at these scenes.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by MysteryMan14 »

thedarktrees wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:
vicksvapor77 wrote:
You hate their acting? Or their characters?
Both but especially their acting. The way Jennifer Jason Leigh killed them and then was on the phone like "fries and ketchup"..it was just so bad

Yeah, I agree with this one. Chantal & Hutch are pretty cringe-inducing bad. The whole fast food thing being used to show us just how vicious and heartless they are in casually killing people is just terrible. Easily my least favorite characters, and to my mind the absolute thinnest and weakest ones in the whole show.
I dont agree at all. Me and my sisters find their pseudo-philosophical chat kind of funny.
Am I the only one who doesn't give a flying fuck about how Bowe was portrayed? When I'd watched an ep. 15 first time I thought that Philip's voice was coming from the bell which was in episodes 3 and 8. Then later I read that it was a teapot Lol
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ScarFace32
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by ScarFace32 »

MysteryMan14 wrote:
thedarktrees wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:
Both but especially their acting. The way Jennifer Jason Leigh killed them and then was on the phone like "fries and ketchup"..it was just so bad

Yeah, I agree with this one. Chantal & Hutch are pretty cringe-inducing bad. The whole fast food thing being used to show us just how vicious and heartless they are in casually killing people is just terrible. Easily my least favorite characters, and to my mind the absolute thinnest and weakest ones in the whole show.
I dont agree at all. Me and my sisters find their pseudo-philosophical chat kind of funny.
Am I the only one who doesn't give a flying fuck about how Bowe was portrayed? When I'd watched an ep. 15 first time I thought that Philip's voice was coming from the bell which was in episodes 3 and 8. Then later I read that it was a teapot Lol
Not a big David Bowe fan I take it?
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alreadygoneplaces
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by alreadygoneplaces »

MysteryMan14 wrote:When I'd watched an ep. 15 first time I thought that Philip's voice was coming from the bell which was in episodes 3 and 8. Then later I read that it was a teapot Lol
Yeah, I was surprised to come here and see so many interpret Jeffries as being a teapot or even being the bell. I took it to mean he was communicating through the bell-like apparatus, from wherever/whenever/if ever he is. Or at least, I certainly don't think Jeffries was at the convenience store/motel location- he was just able to be contacted from there. The Jeffries bell shots had a totally different decor and architecture, more reminiscent of the Naido/American Girl exit rooms in that strange box in the void. Which would fit with Cooper saying to whoever he thought was Jeffries in Ep. 2 "and you're still nowhere" (nonexistent! / Flying Dutchman).
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by Deep Thought »

opium wrote:You seem to be projecting a lot on me using pretension to describe the attitude of Lynch in applying these scenes,
Yeah, sorry about that. That word triggers me I guess. :lol:
There's your roast beef and cheese.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by Ragnell »

alreadygoneplaces wrote:
MysteryMan14 wrote:When I'd watched an ep. 15 first time I thought that Philip's voice was coming from the bell which was in episodes 3 and 8. Then later I read that it was a teapot Lol
Yeah, I was surprised to come here and see so many interpret Jeffries as being a teapot or even being the bell. I took it to mean he was communicating through the bell-like apparatus, from wherever/whenever/if ever he is. Or at least, I certainly don't think Jeffries was at the convenience store/motel location- he was just able to be contacted from there. The Jeffries bell shots had a totally different decor and architecture, more reminiscent of the Naido/American Girl exit rooms in that strange box in the void. Which would fit with Cooper saying to whoever he thought was Jeffries in Ep. 2 "and you're still nowhere" (nonexistent! / Flying Dutchman).
I thought he was in the thing, reduced to his spiritual essence and taking a good soul-steam.

Well, first I thought "EX-TER-MIN-ATE" and then I thought the soul-steam thing.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by Ragnell »

1) A Chain Reaction of Self-Actualization -- There seems to be a widespread reaction that the Ed and Norma thing didn't have enough within season building, and I would agree except that I don't think this story is about them and I don't think that this is the last beat of it.

Dr. Jacoby receiving those shovels was the first real-world scene we saw in the first part. We waited 5 parts for the payoff and went "Oh, how funny! They were messing with us" like that was the goal of the shovel story. Then the podcast story continues, with an image of Nadine listening adoringly each time, with the reveal of the Golden Shovel and her storefront, and then we thought "Well, is that all we get of Nadine?" And no, we got to see Ed, lonely, for one ep, and Nadine meeting Jacoby and explaining how the shovel was a positive symbol for her, a talisman for her own betterment. And we thought, was that the payoff?

Well, no.

We see Nadine, carrying her golden talisman all the way from her place to Ed's, to prove to him she's thought about this and she's realized that she will be okay without him. And Ed, who we saw introduced as lonely and in love with another, rushes to the diner to realize his dreams.
Norma we've been seeing for several episodes, stuck in that booth in a beaureaucratic hell which wasn't as lonely and isolated as Ed's situation, but still kept her at a distance from those she loved. And, upon hearing Ed is free, she sits down to a business meeting and does what she's clearly been wanting to do for a while but, as of last ep, seemed very reluctant to do. She sells the franchises and goes back to just her diner, her home. And then she goes to Ed.

So, so far we've seen a chain reaction of self-actualization that has made Nadine, Ed, and Norma estactically happy. So while that kiss was the culmination of a 25-year-old plot, I don't believe it was the end of THIS plot, which has been slowly building from the very first hour. What happened between Ed and Norma this episode will likely have a direct effect on those around them, inspiring someone else to self-actualization and so on and so forth as we reach the climax of the season.

My money's on Shelly being the next link, because she was watching this with such emotion.
Either way, this didn't come out of nowhere. This was built out of scenes we've seen with Nadine, Norma and Jacoby since the very first 4 hours. The thing I think that's throwing people is the Ed piece is where they expect their POV to come, but the true action and the true character change we were watching was Nadine's as she joyfully viewed those Dr. Amp videos.


2) The Bosomy Woman -- I was watching the Mild Fuzz TV review of this ep and they were speculating that she and the Jumping Man were gatekeepers. I like this idea, and that would explain why she's played by a man. She's a liminal spirit, a spirit that exists to help cross boundaries, to help cross worlds and crossing gender is a touch that adds to that. It puts her on the threshold of a binary from the second you see her. It's also worth noting... Mr. C talks forwards, Jeffries talks forwards. She uses backwards speak, and I believe is the only person in the sequence to do so. She exists between genders, between worlds, and between those doors that line this space. That scene change at the end of the credits, long after the Roadhouse song ends, even implies she exists between episodes/parts.


3) The Jumping Man and Sarah -- I have to say, though, I don't think the Jumping Man is a gatekeeper like they do. I think he's a herald. The Jumping Man is the official of the court who greets the guests and announces their arrival. Only, instead of saying "Dale Cooper, Black Lodge Doppelganger and Crime Lord" he appears briefly and does some sort of ritual dance. He's a ceremonial role rather than a guardian.

And one of the reasons I say Herald instead of guardian is because the evidence is mounting that the Jumping Man is the one inhabiting Sarah. And the Herald of the Black Lodge taking a human host imply that something/someone extremely important is going to come to Twin Peaks. I suspect that he has come in advance of the Experiment.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by Deep Thought »

Ragnell wrote:. . . snip . . .
What a wonderful post.

And to follow up that thoughtful post, I have this incredibly important detail about Hulk Hand. When he punches the two blokes in the pub, the ZZ Top music scratches, sputters, and skips both times. So the Roadhouse is playing vinyl records and the thunderclap of power interfered with the music system but not the lights, or the Fireman's gift makes a record scratching noise just like the White Lodge gramophone would do if Batman and Robin got into a fight with Brutale in the White Lodge. Come to think of it, Hulk Hand plays out like James' sidekick.
There's your roast beef and cheese.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by whoisalhedges »

Is anyone else getting more and more worried about Big Ed as the hours pass?

If Ed Hurley were to have dictated his deepest fantasy, his heart's truest desire; it would not have played out any differently. He loves Nadine. It's a paternalistic love, not in the least romantic, but he never wanted to break her heart - as evidenced by him returning to her after S2, after "committing" to moving on and starting a life with Norma. So, of course he would want not only his freedom, but Nadine's blessing, he'd want Nadine to be happy for him and Norma.

Speaking of Norma, it's not her making a decision between two men. It's her unceremoniously dumping Asshole Walter, and not only that, but selling off her franchises - to spend all her time with Ed!

His eyes are closed....

I'm really worried that something happened that night. Maybe he put a "cyanide pill" in his Cup Noodle.

I don't want this. Hell, there's not much I want more in the world of Twin Peaks than for Norma and Big Ed to live happily ever after. But what made my heart flutter with joy on Sunday night is kinda scaring the hell out of me two days later.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by Esselgee »

Is there any chance that Showtime will start selling a Phillip Jeffries standee from the new season now? Or at least a Funko Pop figure?
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