Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

Moderators: Annie, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne, Brad D

User avatar
N. Needleman
Posts: 2058
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:39 pm

Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:37 pm

ravingnightmare wrote:Seeing glimpses of him in his old state of mind does not constitute something like: "we have seen him for the past x number of episodes". Wake up people. Stop accepting whatever is thrown at you. You all know exactly what I mean with my previous statement.


We know, we just don't agree (or care).
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
User avatar
Deep Thought
Posts: 303
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:05 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Deep Thought » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:39 pm

ravingnightmare wrote:Wake up people.


Don't die!
There's your roast beef and cheese.
User avatar
Taperecorder
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 7:53 am

Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Taperecorder » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:40 pm

BGate wrote:
mtwentz wrote:
ravingnightmare wrote:15 episodes covered, no Dale Cooper.. Let that sink in for a while.


Not true: Dale Cooper showed up in Parts 1-3 (though no dialogue in Part 3).


Dale Cooper has been in every single episode. And I'm not talking about the Doppelganger.


Yep. I agree.
-
As above, so below.
-
thedarktrees
Posts: 98
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:30 pm

Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby thedarktrees » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:48 pm

Taperecorder wrote:
BGate wrote:
mtwentz wrote:
Not true: Dale Cooper showed up in Parts 1-3 (though no dialogue in Part 3).


Dale Cooper has been in every single episode. And I'm not talking about the Doppelganger.


Yep. I agree.


All this talk about what Coop and DoppelCoop are really about has gotten quite interesting. There's stuff here we've been forced to think about now that his awakening seems, finally, right around the corner.

For all the complaints about not having Cooper awaken earlier in the series, and instead being stuck with inept catatonic Dougie instead -- I kind of wonder whether the alternative of having Cooper wake up right away would have actually been better. Would this have meant a weird plot arc that features Cooper having to adjust to the world 25 years later? Would we have been subject to horribly awkward scenes of Coop learning about cell phones, 9/11, Donald Trump, the internet, etc? Would it have turned out to be a slightly more dramatic version of the old SNL unfrozen cavemen lawyer sketch? Thinking about it that way, maybe we've been better off with catatonic Coop for most of the show.
thedarktrees
Posts: 98
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:30 pm

Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby thedarktrees » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:54 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
whoisalhedges wrote:At first I was hostile to the notion of Shit Dale being Richard's father - precisely because in TPTR, DoppelCoop has always been so purposeful and deliberate in his actions. He doesn't seem to be one who would act out of animal lust; and he didn't seem to have a reason to destroy Audrey. Hell, if she was in a coma, if nobody even knew what happened (I imagine, even now - the Sheriff and Chief Deputy are talking about Cooper, and NOT talking about arresting him for rape - everyone probably assumes Richard is JJW's) there wouldn't even be any garmonbozia to collect!

But this is now. We remember episode 29. DoppelCoop is in charge now, but BOB was in charge then. And though, yes, he liked his garmonbozia, he DID act out of animal lust.

I suppose we shall see.


Yeh, DKL has consciously placed reused footage of giddy Episode 29 doppelCoop alongside the more dour 2017 version, so he has presumably thought about the transformation. It definitely fits with the series' themes of aging, but a lot of this thematic stuff (Coop's duality, death and aging) has been pretty between the lines this far.



That's one of the most interesting takes on aging in the new TP that I've heard. Totally hadn't thought about DoppelCoop himself in terms of aging. So far, they've mostly shown DoppelCoop as kind of invincible/ageless, but there may well be more going on here. This last episode, showing DoppelCoop's uncertain pleading for info from Jeffries really puts him in a slightly different light.
mickeyfickey
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:03 am

Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby mickeyfickey » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:15 pm

Firewalkwithme91 wrote:
dropkick23 wrote:
mickeyfickey wrote:
Explain to me how having quirky Cooper come back after 25 years of his life being gone, and his evil twin out in the world performing unspeakable evil, would make any sense whatsoever.


I'm just wondering what is so unspeakably evil about evil coop...half the characters on the show seem to be more evil than him.


That´s actually something that I find quite interesting. I mean BadCoop is clearly not a good guy but the people that he kills are pretty disposable characters that we are not attached to. He didn´t show up in Twin Peaks and started murdering Ed, Norma or Ben etc. , he actually left town and did his evil deeds somewhere else. Sure, we still don´t know if he really raped Audrey, Diane or Annie but as of now, he´s not the worst guy on this show.^^
This leads me to believe that there´s actually more of the old Cooper in Mr. C than what we know off. He´s not the exact opposite of our old Cooper. Instead of being chaotic or all over the place, he´s very organized and means business. He also doesn´t just go arround killing random people, no, they are always somehow connected to the information that he wants.

That´s why I´m really excited to see how this whole Dougie and Mr. C will play out because there has to be something deeper going than: Okay, this is the good and this is the bad version of Dale Cooper. Will they integrate? Or are we in for a big twist? Can´t wait.


Who is worse than Evil Cooper in this show? He's either murdered people directly, in cold blood, or coerced others into doing so. He literally has (had?) Bob inside him. His death toll is higher than anyone in the show currently, unless I'm missing something?
mickeyfickey
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:03 am

Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby mickeyfickey » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:23 pm

Is the "BadCoop is really just a swell guy" the new "Big Ed is black lodge denizen in frame 2,574" of this episode?
User avatar
zeronumber
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:42 pm

Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby zeronumber » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:28 pm

2¢ more:

Now that we see Sarah is truly possesed, or at least co~opted;

And we have some evidence of a connection with the Jumping Man...(..i.e. the ghostly face...)

The question of "how" she was corrupted comes to mind.

My conjecture-> She may as theoized be the Young Girl from Arizona.

And/or

Laura's painting of the Dooway, a gift fom the Chalfont...remained~ in Laura's room !

And Sarah found it...or became open to her..through dreams.

Terrible, terrible dreams...

Sent from my NEC-NE-201A1A using Tapatalk
User avatar
Framed_Angel
Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:16 am

Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Framed_Angel » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:30 pm

thedarktrees wrote:
somevelvetmorning wrote:So we have a woodsman that looks like he has recently been bleeding from his mouth and then we have this weird guy in the jail cell.Just a coincidence?
Not sure I see the similarty -- but more than that, I really don't see WHY we would or should want to see a similarity. Not to take away from any of the discussions that people want to have about the show, or to say that it needs to be viewed in any particular way, but I really, really don't understand that massive rush of interpretation that tries to find parallels and equivalences between different scenes -- and then try to assume that that has cracked some code that the viewer is supposed to solve. ..Asking this honestly -- why exactly should we be so desperately hunting for parallels like this?
I do agree at times, such speculation seems to be "reaching," yes? I was thinking today about the scene in an earlier Part [?], when Andy and Lucy and Hawk are in a prolonged back & forth about the chocolate bunnies. And when Hawk himself repeats Lucy's or Andy's "... Is it about the bunnies?" how it felt to me like such a break from character for him. It kind of let me down. But then of course some Parts later when the note about Jack Rabbit Palace is discovered-- some folks here wondered "Ohhhh, so it IS 'about the bunnies'!"

And yeah, I can see where it gets a little out of control at those moments, the parallel-note-taking. I figure on reading past what I can't use and considering what I can. There's so many things to unpack in any episode. No two people will unpack the same way. So few Parts remain for even a fraction of pieces to get puzzled together in the time that's left, I almost have puzzle-fatigue! Use a mental filter to keep the less-necessary at bay. I've quoted just one of several items that didn't engage me for drawing a parallel but I've encountered countless others that felt rewarding to re-examine for the sake of finding a different interpretation and even a previously undetected parallel.
"Fool me once... shame on me!"
TPDpz
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:52 am

Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby TPDpz » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:11 pm

I've read some things that possession works in the way that it merges with the host and hosts can have multiple spirits in them at the same time. In the mainstream culture possession is depicted as something like in the movie the exorcist / tv supernatural where you are completely under control. If I'm not wrong also the bible confirms this when interpretated correctly and yea, not going in to religious stuff, it's just as a reference for who knows where Lynch picks this stuff from. In our reality we can think of when someone is "not acting" like themselves they are being possessed because of tbeing in a state of low energy and are thus open for possession by black / malicious spirits, like the ones from black lodge. When you are being possessed, you might not even actually realize it yourself as it's blending in, not taking control fully.

This is what I think has happened with Sarah Palmer for example - losing her husband and daughter, being all by herself, getting in to alcohol for relief she must be in a pretty low self loathing state and open for possession. I do not think she was this thing to begin with but it's been going on for years so she must be pretty intoxicated and corrupt inside. Perhaps it's been the mothbug all along, but I don't think we can confirm this just yet? My gut still says the bug is for something else.

[EDIT] Laura said btw. that BOB had been having her since she was 12 in FWWM, so Leland was raping her since she was pre-teen, I wonder what had made Laura fall then for her to become vulnerable to BOB's vicinity.

None of these characters that have had these thing happen to them have been in "high spririts". They say we never get rid of our demons, but we can only learn to live above them.

Also another thing regarding dreams is that being awake in a dream is lucidity to a standpoint, that you're aware that you're dreaming. If you live in a dream and believe that it is the reality, as you are not aware that you're dreaming and cannot wake from it it's limbo, perhaps like a coma. Actually our life at least how I perceive it could be in a state of limbo.

We know for certain that some of these scenes happening have happened inside a dream. But are all of it?

The Ed scene was a dream I believe now as some have pointed out. If the cars were driving the wrong way during the Nadine scene with the shovel and the extraordinary weather etc.

A) I think Ed was having a lucid dream where he willed Norma to her arms and is very well alive, he was just awake in his dreams.
B) Something happened during the night he played with the matches and in his mind he created this heaven of his (yes, even after death).
C) All of what's going on in TP world is a dream
D) Something else

Are there any others parts parts where we have confirmation that there are so many inconsistencies that they should be happening inside a dream?

Perhaps Cooper is the dreamer. There is a struggle within for the person he is to become. The good in him was stuck in a limbo in the form of Dougie Jones and once he heard out the name Gordon Cole and remembered the life he's had the only way to escape it would be via death to transfer your consciousness away from it or to possibly forever lose that from your mind getting stuck in limbo. We'll see where he ends up or does he still wake up as Dougie being saved by Janie-E in the candylife. Also if others are like the dreamer, wouldn't that explain Ruby mimicing the good Coop? People have pointed out that others are acting more slow as well than their usual self, isn't that mimicing the good Coop?

Then again, it's Twin Peaks and we all just like to speculate and have our discussions. Whatever can happen. :]

Blue rose could indicate the ego that is fake for the ego can be shattered to multiple pieces, some of them very fake and taking control from our true selves. Some of them could be "manufactured" even, think MK-Ultra for example and it doesn't have to be that extreme, you can do it unknowingly yourself by being lead astray.

Fear -> anger -> hate, fear is the path to the dark side -Yoda! / Fear among other things was required to open the portal to the black lodge for mortal men / Hate is just an extreme form of self-preservation caused by fear -me / All you need is love - Lennon!
Last edited by TPDpz on Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
N. Needleman
Posts: 2058
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:39 pm

Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:37 pm

I mean, there's been way weirder spec than this over the last 27 years. I don't know what people are so stressed out about.
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
User avatar
Saturn's child
Posts: 394
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:38 pm
Location: Blue Mountains

Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Saturn's child » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:44 pm

N. Needleman wrote:I mean, there's been way weirder spec than this over the last 27 years. I don't know what people are so stressed out about.


Me neither. I kind of feel sorry for people who can't engage in (wild) speculation, I find it very enjoyable.
TPDpz
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:52 am

Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby TPDpz » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:52 pm

Saturn's child wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:I mean, there's been way weirder spec than this over the last 27 years. I don't know what people are so stressed out about.


Me neither. I kind of feel sorry for people who can't engage in (wild) speculation, I find it very enjoyable.


No reason to be stressed out at anything regarding TP. I also enjoy speculation and the fluctuations and paths our minds can lead us there. You can learn a lot from the way other people think. Speculation is great and if someone stresses out about that, just should skip it. To think for yourself is not for everyone, yet, but I'm sure it will be part of everyones path at some point. :]
Last edited by TPDpz on Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
crash_and_burn
Posts: 86
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 8:10 pm
Location: Two worlds and inbetween
Contact:

Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby crash_and_burn » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:04 pm

Janey-E doesn't show up at the door to find Coop with the Limo driver until after we hear the owl fly by.

The second owl is when we first see Sonny Jim help Coop sit down.

The owls are not what they seem, right?

What if Janey-E and Sonny Jim are the Tremonts?
User avatar
docLEXfisti
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 9:59 am

Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby docLEXfisti » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:28 pm

What I find intruiging is Booper and Richard teaming up, looking forward to the announced conversation in the car. Those boys...

Return to “Parts Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests