Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

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Troubbble
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Troubbble » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:13 pm

TheGum wrote:
Troubbble wrote:Pretty sure the "Jeffries" who made the phone call early-on (and later tried to have the doppelganger killed) was Mike, in actuality. Makes sense, since he "wants to be with Bob again."

Seemed clear in Part 15 that Jeffries had not been in contact with the doppelganger in the last 25 years. And I think Mike makes a lot more sense than Diane...


I tend to agree with this, as it makes the most sense motivationally. There are a couple things that confuse me however-
1- the voice says you're going back in tomorrow, I will be with Bob again. Why would Mike tip his hand? Is he like, monologueing like some comic book villain here!?
2-he mentions that he spoke with Garland Briggs. Why would Mike speak to Briggs? What about?

And let's not forget that Doppelcoop has something to do with Hastings as well that hasn't been explained. He shows up and kills his wife saying "you follow human nature perfectly." What's the motivation here? We saw The woodsman in the neighboring cell earlier in the episode so we can assume that he informed Doppelcoop of the situation, I'm assuming they're aligned since they save him later. But if the woodsmen kill Hastings himself later, why didn't they just knock off his wife too?


Questions 1 and 2 I can't help with!

The Doppelganger killed Phyllis to help cover his tracks a little, after using her to help frame Bill for Ruth's murder. (Presumably she was ripe for manipulation, since both she and Bill were having affairs behind one anothers' backs.)

Doing this ensured Ruth's death would go down as a crime of passion, the main conspirator would no longer be alive to tell her story, and the supernatural nature of the murder would be concealed from any pesky Blue Rose taskforce members who might come calling... (Of course, he ended up on their radar anyway, once he crashed his car...)

See why you're questioning why the woodsmen didn't kill Phyllis, as they did Bill - and I'm not sure the answer. It's interesting, though, that Bill was killed once he returned to the site of the vortex to The Zone. Perhaps they are limited in some way?

The part I really don't understand is why Garland Briggs body was posed with Ruth's severed head. Placing Ruth's remains in the apartment fits in with the attempt to frame Bill Hastings, but depositing the Major's along with hers makes this case scream BLUE ROSE.

Wonder whether the Major somehow orchestrated this himself, after abandoning his body in The Zone. His fingerprints, along with Janey-E's ring, seem specifically intended to draw the attention of our heroes...
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TheGum
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby TheGum » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:19 pm

Yeah it perplexes me. Maybe they needed to see how much he really knew, and once he showed them to the zone, FBI got too close, so they killed him then because Doppelcoop wasn't available to do the job.
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Meaxylon
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Meaxylon » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:21 pm

TheGum wrote:
Troubbble wrote:Pretty sure the "Jeffries" who made the phone call early-on (and later tried to have the doppelganger killed) was Mike, in actuality. Makes sense, since he "wants to be with Bob again."

Seemed clear in Part 15 that Jeffries had not been in contact with the doppelganger in the last 25 years. And I think Mike makes a lot more sense than Diane...


I tend to agree with this, as it makes the most sense motivationally. There are a couple things that confuse me however-
1- the voice says you're going back in tomorrow, I will be with Bob again. Why would Mike tip his hand? Is he like, monologueing like some comic book villain here!?
2-he mentions that he spoke with Garland Briggs. Why would Mike speak to Briggs? What about?
......


#2
The person who called Doppelcoop didn't say that he himself spoke to Briggs, did he? He said to DoppelCoop: "You met with Garland Briggs", so the caller didn't meet Briggs, the Doppel did.
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TheGum
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby TheGum » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:30 pm

Good catch- this would seem to indicate the Doppelcoop killed Briggs, and challenge the theory that Briggs somehow orchestrated the body switch.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby TPDpz » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:36 pm

TheGum wrote:Fear and Love open the doors to the black and white lodges, yes, the owl cave map was a time, but Windom Earle needed Annie to gain entry because he needed her fear. Cooper was filled with fear when he entered, fear for Annie, possibly of what was inside that place. Cooper was only able to access the lodge because of his own fear, and that may have been the key to his undoing from the start.


Yeah, in a sense Coopers downfall were his feelings for Annie that put him to jeopardy. He seemed like a man without fear prior to that. Love however overcomes fear when it matters the most. Fear is the mindkiller and forces you to freeze at the worst point, but with love you can overcome that and make the ultimate sacrifice if necessary. In a sense Cooper had those both when entering the lodge, perhaps that is why he was not consumed. Windom surely had no love and his soul was consumed.

In the end I guess love will prevail. I don't know how it will go, I do not know what will happen, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Cooper waking up in the end in the bed at great Northern 25 years in the past and old never shown footage with Harry and many others greeting Coop when he wakes up, his mind had experienced 25 years in the struggle over himself, perhaps after he hit his head to the mirror or whatever. :]
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby ScarFace32 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:42 pm

I was thinking maybe Cooper is "under cover" as Mr. C, but I guess that doesn't really make sense at all. Is it possible when Cooper wakes up it will be as the body we see now as Mr. C?
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby cgs027 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:43 pm

TheGum wrote:Good catch- this would seem to indicate the Doppelcoop killed Briggs, and challenge the theory that Briggs somehow orchestrated the body switch.


This is where stuff gets super messy, though... If Mr. C killed Briggs, he was there when Ruth/Hastings showed up. So... he could have easily gotten the coordinates off of Ruth at that point. What is the point of the whole "Ray, I need those coordinates" (via the secretary, no less) then?

I'm still hoping there's some logic behind all of these coordinates, but am losing hope. Especially after it appeared that Jefferies gave Mr. C coordinates during their meeting (again -- what was the point of Ray then?). I highly doubt there are 3-4 different sets of coordinates flying around at this point -- there are only a few hours left... And someone noted somewhere (reddit?) that the Jefferies #s seemed to line up with the ones on Ruth's arm, anyways.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby TheGum » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:50 pm

I see Jeffries' coordinates as unexpected confirmation of what Ray gave him, unless Ray's coordinates were to the convenience store
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby cgs027 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:55 pm

TheGum wrote:I see Jeffries' coordinates as unexpected confirmation of what Ray gave him, unless Ray's coordinates were to the convenience store


Regarding the latter, why would Hasting's secretary have coordinates to the convenience store? If so, then we should expect the FBI to converge on the convenience store location (which I don't see happening). But Diane saw that the coordinates pointed to Twin Peaks. So, did they trick her? If so, why Twin Peaks (and why did they assume she wouldn't be suspicious that they never mentioned this fact to her -- they all share Twin Peaks in common, after all)? Just sayin'.
Last edited by cgs027 on Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby cgs027 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:58 pm

TheGum wrote:I see Jeffries' coordinates as unexpected confirmation of what Ray gave him, unless Ray's coordinates were to the convenience store


Also, during the Farm scene, Mr. C asked Ray where Jefferies was at, and he said "The Dutchman". Mr. C then shot him and said "I know where that is". So, why would he need coordinates there? Seemed like he took that "Dutchman" info and immediately went to find Jefferies, irregardless of the coordinates...

But yes, I agree that Jefferies may have ended up giving him the same coordinates that Ray had. I would have thought evil genius Mr. C would have noticed this after the first few digits, though (and not have to write the whole thing down).
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby vicksvapor77 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:01 pm

TheGum wrote:I see Jeffries' coordinates as unexpected confirmation of what Ray gave him, unless Ray's coordinates were to the convenience store


Thank you for bringing that up, because I didn't get that either. Didn't Ray already give him the coordinates? Jeffries is "writing down" the phone number for Judy which happen to be the coordinates. In other words, he will find Judy at the coordinates it seems.

Also, do we feel the "permanent" physical location of the Convenience Store is between Western Montana and Twin Peaks, since there are portals leading to it in Laura's picture and in Buckhorn, South Dakota? But what do we make of why it can be visible or not visible at certain times and its dissipation in part 15?
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby vicksvapor77 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:02 pm

cgs027 wrote:
TheGum wrote:I see Jeffries' coordinates as unexpected confirmation of what Ray gave him, unless Ray's coordinates were to the convenience store


Also, during the Farm scene, Mr. C asked Ray where Jefferies was at, and he said "The Dutchman". Mr. C then shot him and said "I know where that is". So, why would he need coordinates there? Seemed like he took that info and immediately went to find Jefferies, separate from the coordinates...


That's a good point, he went to the Dutchman's, seemingly unrelated to "the coordinates."
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Firewalkwithme91 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:04 pm

vicksvapor77 wrote:
cgs027 wrote:
TheGum wrote:I see Jeffries' coordinates as unexpected confirmation of what Ray gave him, unless Ray's coordinates were to the convenience store


Also, during the Farm scene, Mr. C asked Ray where Jefferies was at, and he said "The Dutchman". Mr. C then shot him and said "I know where that is". So, why would he need coordinates there? Seemed like he took that info and immediately went to find Jefferies, separate from the coordinates...


That's a good point, he went to the Dutchman's, seemingly unrelated to "the coordinates."


Just to clarify, he said: "I know WHAT that is."
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:06 pm

During the scene with Big Ed and Norma, and especially afterward with the extremely positive shot of the sky, I suddenly had this thought: "Man, things are feeling so good right now, shit's probably about to get really dark".

Next shot: Dark dread! Power lines. Deep forest in the night. Dale enters Twin Peaks and stops at the Convenience Store.

"I knew it!"

The one thing that bothered me about this Part was the attempted imitation of Jeffries. The voice actor really missed the mark and the result distracted and annoyed me. I had to wonder, "What's the point?" It would have been far more effective if his lines had been read to Kyle in order for him to respond, but if the scene itself featured nothing but the boiler and steam in silence, with Dale the only one talking, forcing us to infer what Jeffries was communicating, presumably on another wavelength. Oh well.

Regarding the legality of using a Bowie impersonator or mash-up of old footage as some holographic vision, there's a chance that it's not really an obstacle at all considering that David Bowie appeared in "American Gods" played by a woman. One has to assume that impersonating Bowie as Jeffries is much less of a big deal than impersonating the man himself.

Moving along, the scene with James didn't bother me. I just found it to be more Nadine Strength humor and it really was satisfying to see those guys taken out since they had James outnumbered and were majorly crossing the line. Do you really need to physically strike someone that you don't want talking to your wife? It's almost as though he's angry with her for giving James the time of day to begin with, and then woefully misplacing his frustration.

The face flashing along with The Jumping Man: Looks like Jeffries in certain frames. No idea why it would be, but back when we saw the meeting he refers to, he didn't appear to be there.

"I've been to one of their meetings. It was above a convenience store".

Maybe he was there by way of inhabiting The Jumping Man. Who knows... if it is his face alternating with Sarah's, that's even more confusing. What's the implication? That the frog moth impregnated Sarah? That Jeffries / The Jumping Man is her son?

Regarding Cooper's briefcase call, which has been discussed a bit lately, it seems unlikely that Albert was the one pretending to be Jeffries on the call to Coop. Same goes for Diane. It just doesn't make sense that either of them would want to "be with BOB again", does it? For it to be Gerard calling on behalf of MIKE, on the other hand (hee haw), would be more fitting, and it did sound more like him than any of the other candidates.

I'm standing by Mr. C being the original, physical Dale Cooper, as the whole concept of the Shadow Self is not a literal other self, but rather a metaphysical manifestation of the internal struggle. Dale's identity has been shattered due to the annihilation of his soul. I see "Dougie" as more of a sleepwalker inhabited by all that was good in Dale, an unconscious split from the whole, a blissfully unaware and innocent soul, forever spanning what he perceives as a single moment of warm contentedness.

My only question at this point is: How will Dale survive, if he does at all? Will the shards be joined once again? Or will one half destroy the other, necessitating a spiritual rebirth of sorts?

Disclaimer: This Part was enjoyed in conjunction with a cherry pie.
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ScarFace32
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby ScarFace32 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:18 pm

Mr. Strawberry wrote:During the scene with Big Ed and Norma, and especially afterward with the extremely positive shot of the sky, I suddenly had this thought: "Man, things are feeling so good right now, shit's probably about to get really dark".

Next shot: Dark dread! Power lines. Deep forest in the night. Dale enters Twin Peaks and stops at the Convenience Store.

"I knew it!"
.


Store not in TP

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