Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby vicksvapor77 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:34 pm

TheGum wrote:Should we maybe be referring to the "woodsmen" as the "Dutchmen" at this point? Is the convenience store "the dutchman's"
They could easily all pass for pirates/seamen if in fact the convenience store is akin to the mythical Flying Dutchman


Well the official credits say "Woodsman" for the one in part 8 but check this out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutchman_(repair)
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby TheGum » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:37 pm

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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby whoisalhedges » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:45 pm

Ragnell wrote:...a bunch of really good shit...

Ragnell, on this single page, you have written two of the best posts I've read in my time here. Salut!
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Deep Thought » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:50 pm

Ragnell wrote:
Deep Thought wrote:
Ragnell wrote:Dale's soul was split, but not annihilated. He did have courage, he was willing to be destroyed or enslaved to save someone. He just couldn't beat his OWN dark side. And he couldn't open the second door, implying he didn't truly love Annie like he thought. He was trapped there. He did get close to the White Lodge, though, he made it to the purple sea that surrounds it.


I agree with this view. The Fireman has always seen DC as a seeker, but tells him in the opening scene that he has a long way to go to reach the White Lodge. "You are far away."

I see the Dougie part of Cooper's journey in the lyrics to Lynch's " Strange and Unproductive Thinking":

". . . cosmic Awareness, becoming one with the longing for complete surrender to the
Higher self, which has potentially been waiting these long eons of time,
And in fact sometimes has been dipping into a state of semi-sleep or
Unconsciousness, bordering on complete absence of thought."


So, do you think the opener was Dale projecting from the Black Lodge, or a flashforward and we'll see him make this visit soon?


I'm seeing it as the Fireman Skyping him.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby TPDpz » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:52 pm

Ragnell wrote:
TPDpz wrote:
Ragnell wrote:
You guys are making the same mistake the 90s Green Lantern writers made. Fear and Love open the doors. Facing the Lodge with "imperfect courage" annihilates your soul. Courage isn't the absence of fear or the presence of love, it's the ability no matter what the motives to overcome your fear. If you have no fear, it's not courage it's just stupidity. Windom Earle had no fear, he needed Annie's. What he had wasn't courage, it was overconfidence and it was his downfall.

It's also worth noting that the Black Lodge is a place "every soul passes through on the way to perfection", meaning you have to go through the Black Lodge to get to the White Lodge. You need the fear and the love to open both doors one after the other.

Dale's soul was split, but not annihilated. He did have courage, he was willing to be destroyed or enslaved to save someone. He just couldn't beat his OWN dark side. And he couldn't open the second door, implying he didn't truly love Annie like he thought. He was trapped there. He did get close to the White Lodge, though, he made it to the purple sea that surrounds it. After 25 years being trapped, and after seeing Laura again.

I don't know if that means he's in love with Laura (which is definitely something you can argue for, given the deep spiritual connection they share) or if 25 years with only these abstract spirits and thoughtforms around him have opened his heart to all humanity (which would be in keeping with his behavior as Dougie), but I am still convinced it means he wasn't as in love with Annie as he thought and that was what he was lacking in the test and what allowed his shadowself to slip past him.


I agree on your definition of courage and have not claimed the other. Performing a self-sacrificial move out of love does require courage and it is that love that helps you find that courage. Of course you can have courage without such situations as well and most usually have, it's called bravery. The indian braves loved their people and that made them overcome almost all situations and at all cost be ready to sacrifice themselves for the greater good. It's a common saying that love conquers all, love overcomes fear etc. and I can clearly see it why it is so. It's not only just word play, but in reality also states of energy that I will not dwell any deeper in to.

Being fearless does not equal being reckless. Windom was reckless, pure stupid to play with such forces and think they'd really care for him or he could gain anything from them for his selfish needs. If anything the lodge spirits despise that like we've seen with Mr. C. Windom was also without love and I merely speculated that it might've been the reason his soul was annihilated, for sure he had no source to dig deep for that courage.

Dale was also empowered with love and I was speculating that maybe that was the reason his soul was not annihilated. We do now know was it this or just his boldness that made him be that courageous. I think you make false assumptions on that his love was not enough.

Do we know for certain that there is a way from black lodge to the white lodge? And it is required to enter from the black lodge to the white lodge to survive it? How can we know that the second door was to be opened anyways, not all doors lead forward and how can we make the assumption that door was to be opened with love?

I also am still open to the case that this all could be a dream and the struggle is still on going inside his head. If someone can prove the other way around, then your assumption on the dark side winning might be true. I leave this all to be seen. I do like your theory on the lodge stuff however but to simplify courage and leave out the background for where you can dig deep for it is just not right. The root cause is as important if not more so than the outcome, especially in problems.


Only Hawk's statement, the same one that said he'd be annihilated with imperfect courage. Thing is, I never read Cooper and Annie as a genuine, substantial epic love. I thought it was a rebound romance, and the use of Caroline in his lodge test (which many fans attribute to Windom Earle's influence) said to me that he was transposing his old love onto Annie.

The fact that as Dougie he's actually had sexual relations and experienced romantic attention but not been reminded of Annie tells me I'm on the right track, though. If he was truly in love with her, he'd be reminded of her by those sorts of experiences, instead he just accepts them. Janey-E's hugs and kisses made him look up and to the direction Laura disappeared, and his first memory as Dougie was of Laura. If his love for Annie was strong enough to open the White Lodge, then it would have been brought somehow to mind, like the flag reminded him of patriotic music.

You might be right, and love in Dale's heart may have saved him in the Black Lodge. But I don't believe his love for Annie was that strong. It would have had to have been fortified by the love he had for other people as well. I'm inclined, though, to think the romantic love he had was not enough to open the door and it's the pure, uncomplicated love Dale's been experiencing as he tries to reconnect with humanity that will get him into the White Lodge this season.


I miss that Indian insight to the lodge stuff more. Perhaps you're right on Annie and Dale relations not blooming yet to a true love. Maybe it did not develop in to that yet, but somewhere there Dale had a source for courage whatever that was and Windom was lacking on that and the difference I thought was love, perhaps it still is but more complicated like you said.

I do question however that door thing still, I just don't want to believe that it would've been that simple and that door would've opened with love inside the black lodge. But it's not what I want or believe. Anything is possible. I need to watch the early S3 episodes again.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby TheGum » Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:33 pm

One thing I CAN say, absolutely conclusively is that we are SO unbelievably lucky to have another season to increase our knowledge, but also nurture our curiosity. We get to have these much more informed discussions on something that has been a part of our lives for over 25 years, and add new mysteries and speculations. Just unheard of. Twin Peaks is one of a kind in so many different ways.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Jasper » Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:56 pm

ScarFace32 wrote:I was thinking maybe Cooper is "under cover" as Mr. C, but I guess that doesn't really make sense at all. Is it possible when Cooper wakes up it will be as the body we see now as Mr. C?


If we take things literally, we have to conclude that Mr. C's body is a different body. It's a doppelganger with a backwards fingerprint and black irises (and those are only the differences of which we're aware).

If Mr. C had been pulled back into the lodge when he was supposed to have been, I think we would have seen the formerly-trapped Cooper lodge body materialize in place of the doppelganger, much like Cooper materialized in Las Vegas with his own body, rather than the body of the real Dougie Jones, who was doughy and had different clothes and a different haircut.

It's become clear that while there is only supposed to be one Cooper-like body out in the world, whichever emerges gets a body tied to its identity. Mr. C has a doppelganger body with dead eyes and a screwed up spiritual fingerprint. DougieCoop has Cooper's exact body, sans identity/memory/agency. Add to this the fact that Mr. C is the "shadow self", and we have good justification for considering DougieCoop to be the real Cooper, or at least the real external Cooper, who represents the place where the whole Cooper belongs. DougieCoop is like a Cooper-shaped glass pitcher, and his missing elements are like water to be poured into the pitcher. We cannot say the same of Mr. C. I don't think that we can pour the real Cooper identity into the unholy vessel of the doppelganger.

It may turn out that Mr. C, as the shadow self, is a necessary part of Cooper's unconscious mind, but we cannot simply say that he is Dale Cooper.

Again, this is looking at the story literally, and for the most part leaving aside other valid points of view (purely psychological, spiritual, etc.).
Last edited by Jasper on Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Denise's Pieces » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:11 pm

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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Framed_Angel » Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:25 pm

I'm intrigued with the discussion about love and courage w/r/t Cooper's "failure" or getting compromised into the sort of trap within the Lodge. Whatever he did to "deserve" it seems like he could have redeemed himself in under 25 years -- it's as if that were the prison term Laura imposed by saying as much. Other than her uttering those words See you in 25 years how else would that come to pass?

I will posit another idea on how Cooper's motives played into his fate.
The idea of Love it seems to me Lynch** does not hold in the conventional sense, or seem interested in displaying via TP except as thwarted or in love triangles, hopelessly compromised (see S1 & 2s soap-ish elements). First, even as Sheriff Truman claimed to love Josie, it seemed more like lust/ physical attraction. She had an entire history he was unaware of. He didn't really know her, and didn't Dale warn him about that at one point? Seems almost like Harry could have been a more prime candidate for getting swept into Lodge dynamics on the premise of flawed love intentions than Coop.

**(I'll add that when I heard Mulholland Drive was simply indicated by Lynch as "a love story," well, I'm still scratching my head about that to this day.)

So laying aside conventional Love, I'll revisit what Dale muttered as he lay bleeding in the hotel room at the opening episode of S2. He fantasizes what he'd do when he recovered: "I'd like to climb a tall hill, but not too tall; sit in the cool grass, but not too cool: ... make love to a beautiful woman for whom I have genuine affection."
Not to be parsimonious but this sounds more to me what Annie embodied, affection, than pure love. I'm thinking how she captivated him as he saw her scarred wrists and listened to her back story. Even sympathized with it (didn't they exchange over cocktails how each feels misunderstood or like a misfit at times?). From my POV, he held her in the same curious regard and wonderment as the Douglas firs, the cherry pie, all those sensations he took in with a pure unmitigated awe.

It didn't mean not caring for her or her fate, he had I'm sure utmost concern as he pursued entry to the Lodge. As mentioned upthread, he did find her but also beheld her image switched-out with Caroline. In fact I think while Annie had been wearing a dark dress during the Pageant and to the Lodge, when she's seen later bleeding she's wearing Caroline's same flower-print white dress. THIS represents for me Cooper's "shadow self": not the inability for his love to prevail, but the guilt tainting his former love for Caroline and how their coupling led to the unraveling of Windom Earle's psyche. I never felt Cooper should be punished for loving another woman after Caroline -- which many have debated whether The Giant's waving "Noooo" at him from the pageant stage was meant to steer him away from Annie vs steer Annie away from taking the Crown prize and thus playing into Earle's scheme.

I never saw the guilt factor addressed much outright since much of Cooper's dynamic w/ Earle involved chess plays, a goose chase toward Earle's whereabouts, and playing the protector as Earle began to leave calling cards with Donna or flirt with Audrey incognito.. but what stood out to me despite not being stated outright was whatever guilt must color a love like Cooper indulged himself in for Caroline, who was married to Earle. Seeing how Agent Earle became unleashed in the aftermath of discovering their affair, murdering her then pursuing Cooper in a game of intimidation and danger reaching people Cooper had befriended, would that not hamper Coopers' most noble efforts to overcome this adversary and restore Twin Peaks out from under that menace? Hampered by guilt at having been a catalyst for it.

The mystical Native American litmus test Hawk suggested that "imperfect courage>> soul annihilated" seems like such an unfair premise for any vulnerable soul much less one as virtuous-striving as Cooper's. He regarded EVERYTHING in Twin Peaks with "genuine affection" whether people or places or the proposal to go night fishing with Major Briggs, so I guess having such a open embracing approach to all things promising wonder made him all the more a rich target for whatever evil is in the woods. But then I'm getting into conventional good vs evil motifs. I do hope Dale emerges with those innate ideals intact, if somewhat bruised and shaken, and that we may notice a more recognizeable setting of Twin Peaks in the process -- which I have felt all its charmed qualities were what we'd been viewing in S!-2 through Coop's rosy-tinted lens.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:49 pm

Haven't seen this mentioned: at the beginning of the Sunset Blvd. clip, Norma Desmond mentions "the old team back together again...nothing can stop us!" I presume, combined with the Gordon shoutout, this deliberately teases a reunion between Coop and his former colleagues. And of course there's the added irony that Gordon's name is spoken by Cecil B. DeMille (playing himself), a founding father of cinema and a decidedly mainstream director. What a perfect clip.

On my cold viewing of this Part, I missed Hutch's line about the US being built on the murder of "Indians." Another strange case of a topic that obviously interested Mark being very casually name-dropped in almost whimsical fashion (a la Lewis & Clark in Wally Brando's ramblings). There's a "chicken or the egg" quality to all this. We know TSHoTP was written after the script was done, at the same time DKL was filming...we also know a lot of stuff on the show was added/expanded during filming (unclear how involved Mark was in the process, or how much was scripted vs. improvised on set). Obviously, the NM nuclear test stuff was written into the script then expanded on in the book...but when it comes to these casual, almost inconsequential, mentions of topics Mark explored in the book...did DKL drop them into the show during filming at Mark's request as little Easter eggs, or were they in the original script? BTW, Chantal and Hutch really started to grow on me with my rewatch of this Part. Their little scene was perfect, especially the button at the end of Chantal pointing out Mars. Up until tonight, I was sort of of the opinion that JJL was a bit wasted on this material, but I really fell in love with the character tonight rewatching that scene. There's almost a childlike innocence to her alongside the casual cruelty (sort of reminiscent of Taryn Manning as Doggett on Orange Is the New Black).

The Gersten/Steven scene didn't do much for me on first viewing (maybe because I was struggling to make out the dialogue, and my streaming feed was also freezing repeatedly, frustrating me)...but on rewatch, I found it mesmerizing. As soon as I finished rewatching the Part, I went back and watched that scene again with subtitles on, then again with subtitles off, having internalized the dialogue. The performances are raw and beautiful (I've been in love with Alicia Witt ever since I first saw the "Blackout" Hotel Room episode; I've been looking forward to seeing what DKL gave her in TP:TR, and I'm glad it ended up being such a powerful scene. Goddamn, she delivers). The prolonged closeup of the two is claustrophobic and suffocating....then without warning, DKL suddenly propels us into one of the clinically distant super-wide-shots that have been a trademark of this work, making us feel the alienating emptiness of the entire woods, the entire world, with these two tiny people so alone and isolated. On the one hand, I understand -- and even agree with, to some extent -- the argument that these characters haven't been properly developed and built-up from a conventional narrative standpoint, that we have no reason to care about them. But, to me, the scene itself is the reason to care about them, because it's so damn engaging. If this were a standalone 5-minute short film, no one would be complaining that we didn't have hours of setup and backstory. I'm not trying to excuse TP:TR for its unconventional and occasionally flat-out sloppy narrative progression (see Walter Lawford, who may as well have "Dramatic Device" printed on his business card); this is an element of the show I think many of us will struggle with and debate for years. I love seeing DKL experiment with expectations and spit in the face of convention, but that doesn't mean everything he does is gold, or that he and Mark aren't just lazy or overconfident in themselves sometimes. And, if this is the end of Steven, there's a good argument to be made that we should have seen more of him / been more invested. (And if Becky did indeed die offscreen, that's a whole other percolator of fish.) But, big picture aside, I honestly think this was one of the more incredible scenes we've gotten from TP:TR, and along with the Log Lady death sequence, functions as Exhibit A against those who claim there is a lack of humanity in the new show. Maybe it's not the type of humanity some fans WANTED...but the characterization of this show as cold/removed just doesn't make sense to me. As I mentioned above, the Steven/Gersten scene utilizes one of those wide shots that many of the Profoundly Disappointed have cited as frustratingly distancing....but DKL deploys it in a very intentional, strategic way to conjure a particular mood, and it doesn't pull us away from the characters AT ALL. Quite the opposite, it makes us feel their isolation.

I know there are a ton of theories about Audrey (I personally love the "wood" theory), but I'm just going with it and revelling in the Beckett/Sartre of it all. I can't be the only one who finds Middleton's performance hysterically funny, right? Every line reading and gesture is a perfect manifestation of passive-aggressive impatient patience.

Has anyone commented on the fact that Margaret appears to have a second land line on the table, right next to the phone she uses to call Hawk? I've noticed it since Part 1, and always found it weird, but I don't think I've mentioned it in a post. I doubt there's any significance, but it's certainly an odd set dressing choice.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby starmand » Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:13 pm

Great post Mr. Reindeer. I had the same experience with the Steven/Gersten scene upon a rewatch. Heartbreaking stuff.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:33 am

TheGum wrote:I'm voting flash forward. It is the only scene in the entire series to occur before the opening credits, I think that is intended to give us a cue that it's not necessarily a part of the timeline we are entering.


I haven't watched since it originally aired, but are you absolutely sure this scene aired BEFORE the opening credits?!!!? I don't remember that at all ...

Edit: Just watched again. The only bit that appears before the credits is old footage of Laura telling Cooper "I'll see you again in 25 years" followed by some people-free shots of the town, the old shot of the girl running in front of the school and a zoom-in on Laura's photo. Cooper's conversation with the Fireman takes place after the credits.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby writersblock » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:55 am

Novalis wrote:
writersblock wrote:
thedarktrees wrote:
Not sure I see the similarty -- but more than that, I really don't see WHY we would or should want to see a similarity. Not to take away from any of the discussions that people want to have about the show, or to say that it needs to be viewed in any particular way, but I really, really don't understand that massive rush of interpretation that tries to find parallels and equivalences between different scenes -- and then try to assume that that has cracked some code that the viewer is supposed to solve. I sort of get why and how that can be fun (that's the basic form of pop narrative puzzle solving popularized by the DaVinci Code and stuff like that, which pulls more generally from internet conspiracy theory-style associational argumentation).

But how and when has Twin Peaks ever suggested that we're supposed to look at its story and scenes in this way? Sure, filmmakers invoke parallels all the time, and sometimes for more and less specific purposes (aesthetic, narrative, etc). But I really don't understand how and why fan theorizing around Twin Peaks has gone down this path in such a hardcore way. Asking this honestly -- why exactly should we be so desperately hunting for parallels like this?


Because Twin Peaks has been about duality from the beginning?


writersblock wrote:
thedarktrees wrote:
Not sure I see the similarty -- but more than that, I really don't see WHY we would or should want to see a similarity. Not to take away from any of the discussions that people want to have about the show, or to say that it needs to be viewed in any particular way, but I really, really don't understand that massive rush of interpretation that tries to find parallels and equivalences between different scenes -- and then try to assume that that has cracked some code that the viewer is supposed to solve. I sort of get why and how that can be fun (that's the basic form of pop narrative puzzle solving popularized by the DaVinci Code and stuff like that, which pulls more generally from internet conspiracy theory-style associational argumentation).

But how and when has Twin Peaks ever suggested that we're supposed to look at its story and scenes in this way? Sure, filmmakers invoke parallels all the time, and sometimes for more and less specific purposes (aesthetic, narrative, etc). But I really don't understand how and why fan theorizing around Twin Peaks has gone down this path in such a hardcore way. Asking this honestly -- why exactly should we be so desperately hunting for parallels like this?


Because Twin Peaks has been about duality from the beginning?


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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby DeepBlueSeed » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:12 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:BTW, Chantal and Hutch really started to grow on me with my rewatch of this Part. Their little scene was perfect, especially the button at the end of Chantal pointing out Mars. Up until tonight, I was sort of of the opinion that JJL was a bit wasted on this material, but I really fell in love with the character tonight rewatching that scene. There's almost a childlike innocence to her alongside the casual cruelty (sort of reminiscent of Taryn Manning as Doggett on Orange Is the New Black).


They're really growing on me - I like someone's previous comment about how they're essentially Tarrantino characters. One thing I've realised, but completely missed at the time we first saw the two of them together, was how at ease they seem to be around Mr C. Everyone else seems wary of him, like people confronted with a snake that might strike at any moment, but these two seem to be really cheerful and upbeat. Great stuff.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby docLEXfisti » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:18 am

Novalis wrote:
Burns's Suite wrote:EDIT: images now being added

Image

Man that Jürgen Prochnow beard was ridiculous... goofy then, goofy now ;)

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