Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

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Dreamy Audrey
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Dreamy Audrey » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:46 am

During the Roadhouse fight James says "Dial 911". This struck me as funny, isn't it more common to say "Call 911"? And then there's the possible connection to the "119" lady.
IcedOver
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:06 pm

Likely this has been discussed, but just a quick question. Even though what year it is has never been of much importance to Lynch (which is why I don't know why he ended the show with that question), I guess I incorrectly assumed Laura's murder occurred in February 1990. In Part 18 Cooper goes back to 1989. However, in Part 15 he references Jeffries visiting also in 1989. That scene takes place one year before Laura's murder, so was this just yet another sloppy mix-up by Lynch and/or Frost, after the diary page stuff?
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:17 pm

IcedOver wrote:Likely this has been discussed, but just a quick question. Even though what year it is has never been of much importance to Lynch (which is why I don't know why he ended the show with that question), I guess I incorrectly assumed Laura's murder occurred in February 1990. In Part 18 Cooper goes back to 1989. However, in Part 15 he references Jeffries visiting also in 1989. That scene takes place one year before Laura's murder, so was this just yet another sloppy mix-up by Lynch and/or Frost, after the diary page stuff?


At the end of the day, what does it matter? People make mistakes and I am sure DoppelCoop was prone to them too. It is perfectly in line with reality to forget what year one person might have met another.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:33 pm

mtwentz wrote:
At the end of the day, what does it matter? People make mistakes and I am sure DoppelCoop was prone to them too. It is perfectly in line with reality to forget what year one person might have met another.


Okay, we're talking about reality, not fictional characters -- creators not even bothering to check that they have their own facts right from the past or are remaining internally consistent in the current work. It does matter.
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Jasper
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Jasper » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:04 pm

IcedOver wrote:Likely this has been discussed, but just a quick question. Even though what year it is has never been of much importance to Lynch (which is why I don't know why he ended the show with that question), I guess I incorrectly assumed Laura's murder occurred in February 1990. In Part 18 Cooper goes back to 1989. However, in Part 15 he references Jeffries visiting also in 1989. That scene takes place one year before Laura's murder, so was this just yet another sloppy mix-up by Lynch and/or Frost, after the diary page stuff?


Laura dies in 1989.

One source of complication is Fire Walk With Me vs. The Missing Pieces. In TMP, Jeffries observes (to his surprise) that it's February, 1989. (This seems to be echoed by Cooper's uncertainty about the year at the end of The Return). In FWWM the line about the date is left out, and the scene is indicated to have taken place a year before Laura's murder. In The Return, Lynch uses the footage of Bowie from TMP, rather than FWWM, and he seems to use the year from TMP as well.

This puts us in a weird place where both TMP and FWWM are canon, but the dates of the Jeffries appearance don't match. As far as The Return is concerned, I'm going with the date from TMP. After all, Lynch went with the Jeffries footage from TMP, kept the Buenos Aires connection (which is only noted in TMP), and mirrored Jeffries' confusion over the year in Cooper's question at the end of part 18.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby claaa7 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:38 am

Jasper wrote:
IcedOver wrote:Likely this has been discussed, but just a quick question. Even though what year it is has never been of much importance to Lynch (which is why I don't know why he ended the show with that question), I guess I incorrectly assumed Laura's murder occurred in February 1990. In Part 18 Cooper goes back to 1989. However, in Part 15 he references Jeffries visiting also in 1989. That scene takes place one year before Laura's murder, so was this just yet another sloppy mix-up by Lynch and/or Frost, after the diary page stuff?


Laura dies in 1989.

One source of complication is Fire Walk With Me vs. The Missing Pieces. In TMP, Jeffries observes (to his surprise) that it's February, 1989. (This seems to be echoed by Cooper's uncertainty about the year at the end of The Return). In FWWM the line about the date is left out, and the scene is indicated to have taken place a year before Laura's murder. In The Return, Lynch uses the footage of Bowie from TMP, rather than FWWM, and he seems to use the year from TMP as well.

This puts us in a weird place where both TMP and FWWM are canon, but the dates of the Jeffries appearance don't match. As far as The Return is concerned, I'm going with the date from TMP. After all, Lynch went with the Jeffries footage from TMP, kept the Buenos Aires connection (which is only noted in TMP), and mirrored Jeffries' confusion over the year in Cooper's question at the end of part 18.


also Laura dies in 1990 according to the Secret Diary of Laura Palmer and in the Season 1 episodes following the Pilot.. i think they retconned to that to make the series as current as possible. i'm going by 1989 as the date though, it's been established enought that that is the correct year according to Lynch and Frost.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:18 am

claaa7 wrote:
Jasper wrote:
IcedOver wrote:Likely this has been discussed, but just a quick question. Even though what year it is has never been of much importance to Lynch (which is why I don't know why he ended the show with that question), I guess I incorrectly assumed Laura's murder occurred in February 1990. In Part 18 Cooper goes back to 1989. However, in Part 15 he references Jeffries visiting also in 1989. That scene takes place one year before Laura's murder, so was this just yet another sloppy mix-up by Lynch and/or Frost, after the diary page stuff?


Laura dies in 1989.

One source of complication is Fire Walk With Me vs. The Missing Pieces. In TMP, Jeffries observes (to his surprise) that it's February, 1989. (This seems to be echoed by Cooper's uncertainty about the year at the end of The Return). In FWWM the line about the date is left out, and the scene is indicated to have taken place a year before Laura's murder. In The Return, Lynch uses the footage of Bowie from TMP, rather than FWWM, and he seems to use the year from TMP as well.

This puts us in a weird place where both TMP and FWWM are canon, but the dates of the Jeffries appearance don't match. As far as The Return is concerned, I'm going with the date from TMP. After all, Lynch went with the Jeffries footage from TMP, kept the Buenos Aires connection (which is only noted in TMP), and mirrored Jeffries' confusion over the year in Cooper's question at the end of part 18.


also Laura dies in 1990 according to the Secret Diary of Laura Palmer and in the Season 1 episodes following the Pilot.. i think they retconned to that to make the series as current as possible. i'm going by 1989 as the date though, it's been established enought that that is the correct year according to Lynch and Frost.


Well, in FWWM that's the 10th, right? And Laura dies on the 23rd. So, it could have happened a couple weeks before Cooper went to Twin Peaks. The ending of the scene with the announcement Chet Desmond has disappeared could be a symptom of time going wonky for the FBI (the disappearance actually happening earlier) and why Cole and Albert forget this visit later.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:04 am

IcedOver wrote:
mtwentz wrote:
At the end of the day, what does it matter? People make mistakes and I am sure DoppelCoop was prone to them too. It is perfectly in line with reality to forget what year one person might have met another.


Okay, we're talking about reality, not fictional characters -- creators not even bothering to check that they have their own facts right from the past or are remaining internally consistent in the current work. It does matter.


It's not that they didn't bother to check, they either 1) checked the wrong source, the original script, which had the year as 1989, or 2) decided to go ahead and change the year to 1989, for whatever reason.

My point about people not remember the exact year something happened is for you the watcher- if it bothers you so much, then just assume DoppelCoop got the year wrong.

If I would be troubled by anything, it would be DoppelCoop not knowing 'who is Judy', when that's apparently what he is looking for.

In a work like this, such plot holes are inevitable. Hell, even in more 'realistic' fiction, plot holes and inconsistencies occur. At the end of the day, it goes with the territory of writing/filmaking.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:21 am

As I posted in the Profoundly Disappointed thread, the Sunset Boulevard clip seems to serve yet another purpose in light of Parts 17 & 18: it reminds us that Norma Desmond’s fantasy of “the old team back together” is nothing more than a sad impossible delusion. I think this line, and its broader context in Wilder’s film, highlights the rather fatalistic approach DKL took to a “reunion show” throughout S3 — you can’t relive past glories, so why try?

The lights going to black as Dougie electrocutes himself and Janey-E screams is an interesting parallel to the closing moments of the season. Also, the lights going out in Margaret’s house following her death.

Jeffries impliedly denies being the one who called DoppelCoop in Part 2, admits to calling Ray, and doesn’t deny putting the hit on DoppelCoop, but acts surprised (“What?”) He’s a slippery one, that Phillip.

It’s weird that DoppelCoop doesn’t know who Judy is if he has Coop’s memories. We later learn that Coop, Cole & Briggs had a plan to trap her. Did Cole maybe only learn that this name related to JowDay after Coop entered the Lodge?

The Woodsmen almost seem to be Jeffries’ bodyguards here, which makes me question my theory that they are allied with Mr. C. It also gives Jeffries a more sinister vibe, given the Woodsmen’s propensity for skull-crushing.

Is the motel meant to be the Red Diamond City Motel, or an ethereal version of it, or did DKL just reuse the location? If the former, what does this signify? RDCM is where Leland was forced to confront the consequences of abusing his daughter (she is now a prostitute), and we see the Grandson there in the Jumping Man’s mask. Does this impliedly tie Cooper’s dark side (the doppel) to Leland in some way that made them both susceptible to Bob? Did L/F put any particular thought into any of this, or was it just IE-style “the Unified Field will sort it all out” intuition (an approach that worked brilliantly on IE, IMO...still trying to process how well all the mythology stuff in S3 fits, but I’m loving the room to dream).

This one might be the most time spent in the town of Twin Peaks and surrounding environs in all of S3, especially if we assume the Convenience Store is in the woods near TP. We only get a few brief Vegas cutaways to Headley, the Hutchenses and of course Dougie.

Margaret’s reference to “that one” on Blue Pine Mountain under the moon seems to correspond to the placement of the Judy symbol on Hawk’s map. Interesting that in a prior Part, Margaret referred to Laura as “the One.” I wonder if there is some implied spirit-war in the duality of the eponymous two peaks? Is White Tail Mountain (the Great Northern and Jacoby’s new digs) the “good” peak and Blue Pine (the Mill) the evil one? Does this contradict White Tail Falls being an entrance to the Red Room in TSHoTP?

Charlie’s use of the word “threshold” is interesting in light of Hawk’s legend about the Dweller on the Threshold. I’m calling it: Charlie is the hooded figure that kidnaps Briggs. (Now I’m imagining the philosophical discussions Garland and Charlie would have!)

One really has to wonder about the decline in Cyril Pons’s fortunes that led to him living in a trailer park. Is this a commentary on the death of the traditional Fourth Estate? I have a feeling TFD will tell us a bit more about dear old Cyril.

I love the Steven & Gersten scene more every time I watch it. Witt is incredible in those last moments, looking up at the glory of nature all around her and seeming to find some momentary peace in a moment of pure horror and madness. Her expression and the way DKL shoots it calls to mind Becky’s stoned bliss in Part 5, and the pan of the sky and trees is like a dark spiritual cousin to the blissful B-roll footage following Ed & Norma’s reunion.

Speaking of, that scene really does play like wish fulfillment — Ed closes his eyes and wills Walter away. He smiles before Norma approaches, as if he already knows what is going to happen (or maybe he just heard Norma & Walter’s chat?). I do think Ed & Norma’s reunion literally happened, but like so much of the season, it seems to exist in an overlapping space between reality and dreams. See tulpas, which are willed into being through thought, but also completely real.

The Roadhouse has always been portrayed as a somewhat
disreputable/rowdy place since the Pilot, but (the wonderful “townie bar” vibe of Part 2 aside) it comes across as an outright hellish place at some points this season: owned by a guy who runs HS-aged prostitutes on the side, and where women can expect to be shoved around, assaulted, maybe even raped (see Richard’s intro in Part 5) while the crowd dances obliviously and management only bothers you if (God forbid) you smoke.

Renee might win the award for most underdeveloped character in S3. I’m still not quite clear on whether she and James ever actually even spoke, or just regularly stare at each other across the room like awkward 8th graders.

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