Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

Moderators: Annie, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne, Brad D

User avatar
Ragnell
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 5:50 am

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:44 am

Novalis wrote:
TheGum wrote:Windom Earle says something like if someone were to be able to understand and control the Black Lodge he could re-order the entire world to his liking. I think that is exactly Doppelcoop's goal here, smarter than Earle with less hubris, the irony is that to fulfill this he had to escape the lodge, leaving Dale in there with 25 years to figure out how to work the Lodge himself. It seems as though Doppelcoop had the help of the Lodge (possibly, initially Mike and LMFAP seemed to be more aligned with Doppelcoop) initially but perhaps there was a break in allegiance at some point, leaving Doppelcoop with only the aid of the convenience store. This would give our Dale an advantage, as he's been able to learn and possibly eventually manipulate the Black Lodge, which clearly Doppelcoop is trying to avoid at this point.


It's interesting that Coop is giving orders to MIKE/TOAM now, like when he instructs him to prepare another seed. MIKE seems a tad too servile in this scene, passively accepting the request. Or it could just be that during his 25yrs residence, Coop was awarded personality of the year (not hard in a world inhabited by a backwards speaking bogeyman and a short-circuiting tree... oh, and an infinitely sad Leland). Is there something we are assumed to have known? Is it because Kyle-damn-fine-Maclachlan is just so winningly charismatic that in every situation he is in, he emerges the natural leader? :P


Here is where it may be important that TOAM is credited as Gerard, not MIKE. Perhaps the Arm only is MIKE, holding that authority in the Black Lodge. Gerard may have died or retired to the Lodge, and been given the Red Room Host job when the Arm evolved to a more alien form. This would not only explain taking orders, but also why he deals with Cooper in a far more straightforward manner than MIKE did.
User avatar
nonemoreblack
Posts: 106
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:44 am

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby nonemoreblack » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:47 am

Ragnell wrote:
nonemoreblack wrote:
Ragnell wrote:
Audrey still has a future, though. And on the bright side her son is dead. I'm thinking with all the focus on her we will see her overcome this. It may not be such a slap when her story plays out.

But if you're an Audrey-Coop shipper, I'm sorry. It does not look likely. I don't think Audrey's path to happiness is in a man, though. She may yet have some self-actualization.


Oh no, I'm not saying I want them to be together. Regardless of how Audrey's arc finishes - the fact that her dream man (even though it wasn't him) raped her, got her pregnant, and possibly trapped her for 25 years is very upsetting. At the end of the day her pain was caused by a man after he specifically went out of his way to distance himself from her. Audrey being part of that pattern leaves a bad taste in my mouth is all. Diane too for that matter.


Yeah, and I think that's something to unpack at length in the gender thread, I don't know how much they've covered it I don't think Dale going off alone is going to improve that, though. There's still a possibility it can be a satisfying end, though, because this isn't a series where that sort of violence is throwaway but a series where violence against women, particularly sexual, is one of the core, spotlighted themes. He brought Laura's story home in the movie, he's got two hours to bring Audrey's story home.


It doesn't improve it since it is what it is, but I dislike the implication of Audrey and Diane only being brought into The Return to suffer at the hands of Evil Cooper while Janey-E gets to "break the cycle". There are a number of reasons why I personally don't want him to settle down with a family. Cooper missed out on a lot, and he still has friends within the FBI and in Twin Peaks. I prefer the idea of things being left open-ended and Cooper having the option to create a life of his own rather than settling for the one he was thrust into. If characters like Annie and Audrey can manage on their own I don't see why the same can't apply to Cooper.
User avatar
ThumbsUp
Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:05 pm

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby ThumbsUp » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:48 am

Novalis wrote:
TheGum wrote:Windom Earle says something like if someone were to be able to understand and control the Black Lodge he could re-order the entire world to his liking. I think that is exactly Doppelcoop's goal here, smarter than Earle with less hubris, the irony is that to fulfill this he had to escape the lodge, leaving Dale in there with 25 years to figure out how to work the Lodge himself. It seems as though Doppelcoop had the help of the Lodge (possibly, initially Mike and LMFAP seemed to be more aligned with Doppelcoop) initially but perhaps there was a break in allegiance at some point, leaving Doppelcoop with only the aid of the convenience store. This would give our Dale an advantage, as he's been able to learn and possibly eventually manipulate the Black Lodge, which clearly Doppelcoop is trying to avoid at this point.


It's interesting that Coop is giving orders to MIKE/TOAM now, like when he instructs him to prepare another seed. MIKE seems a tad too servile in this scene, passively accepting the request. Or it could just be that during his 25yrs residence, Coop was awarded personality of the year (not hard in a world inhabited by a backwards speaking bogeyman and a short-circuiting tree... oh, and an infinitely sad Leland). Is there something we are assumed to have known? Is it because Kyle-damn-fine-Maclachlan is just so winningly charismatic that in every situation he is in, he emerges the natural leader? :P


Haha, I lol'd.

For real though... we have to use the information we have, and based on what we've seen, Coop and Mike have clearly been in an alliance all season long. And the fact that Mike immediately accepts Coop's order to make a new tulpa suggests that they are aligned in a greater way just beyond Mike wanting to get back at Bob or Evil Coop, or steal back the corn, or whatever.
User avatar
N. Needleman
Posts: 1743
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:39 pm

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:54 am

Jacob wrote:I liked the part, but after all the wait, after all the digressions of Parts 9-15, a lot of it felt too predictable.
So yeah, Cooper is finally coming back, he's got to say goodbye to Janey-E in order to -- probably -- sacrifice himself, Bad Coop raped Diane... We were expecting to see and/or know all of this basically 10 parts ago. I mean, don't get me wrong : I loved the Dougie storyline, and IMO it's brilliant that it lasted so long. But if you want to subvert people expectations like Frost & Lynch did, you have to do it until the end.


I can think of just a few shows that didn't plan ahead and went full steam with that particular philosophy. It did not end well. Eventually you have to pay off honestly, and Lynch almost always does in his stories. If something looks a lot like X, it usually is not going to turn out to be Y.
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
User avatar
Nighthawk
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:49 am

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Nighthawk » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:00 am

Jacob wrote:- Sorry but Chrysta Bell is still awful. She had basically no lines this week and still I found all of her looks and attitudes unbearable. She will have remain a casting error until the end. :?


What's wrong with her? She is a peripheral character who stands out from the crowd nonetheless. What else would you have her do?
User avatar
nonemoreblack
Posts: 106
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:44 am

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby nonemoreblack » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:02 am

ThumbsUp wrote:
Novalis wrote:
TheGum wrote:Windom Earle says something like if someone were to be able to understand and control the Black Lodge he could re-order the entire world to his liking. I think that is exactly Doppelcoop's goal here, smarter than Earle with less hubris, the irony is that to fulfill this he had to escape the lodge, leaving Dale in there with 25 years to figure out how to work the Lodge himself. It seems as though Doppelcoop had the help of the Lodge (possibly, initially Mike and LMFAP seemed to be more aligned with Doppelcoop) initially but perhaps there was a break in allegiance at some point, leaving Doppelcoop with only the aid of the convenience store. This would give our Dale an advantage, as he's been able to learn and possibly eventually manipulate the Black Lodge, which clearly Doppelcoop is trying to avoid at this point.


It's interesting that Coop is giving orders to MIKE/TOAM now, like when he instructs him to prepare another seed. MIKE seems a tad too servile in this scene, passively accepting the request. Or it could just be that during his 25yrs residence, Coop was awarded personality of the year (not hard in a world inhabited by a backwards speaking bogeyman and a short-circuiting tree... oh, and an infinitely sad Leland). Is there something we are assumed to have known? Is it because Kyle-damn-fine-Maclachlan is just so winningly charismatic that in every situation he is in, he emerges the natural leader? :P


Haha, I lol'd.

For real though... we have to use the information we have, and based on what we've seen, Coop and Mike have clearly been in an alliance all season long. And the fact that Mike immediately accepts Coop's order to make a new tulpa suggests that they are aligned in a greater way just beyond Mike wanting to get back at Bob or Evil Coop, or steal back the corn, or whatever.


I can see Mike gaining respect for Cooper even if his intentions weren't initially that good.
User avatar
FlyingSquirrel
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:26 pm

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby FlyingSquirrel » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:09 am

Novalis wrote:
TheGum wrote:Windom Earle says something like if someone were to be able to understand and control the Black Lodge he could re-order the entire world to his liking. I think that is exactly Doppelcoop's goal here, smarter than Earle with less hubris, the irony is that to fulfill this he had to escape the lodge, leaving Dale in there with 25 years to figure out how to work the Lodge himself. It seems as though Doppelcoop had the help of the Lodge (possibly, initially Mike and LMFAP seemed to be more aligned with Doppelcoop) initially but perhaps there was a break in allegiance at some point, leaving Doppelcoop with only the aid of the convenience store. This would give our Dale an advantage, as he's been able to learn and possibly eventually manipulate the Black Lodge, which clearly Doppelcoop is trying to avoid at this point.


It's interesting that Coop is giving orders to MIKE/TOAM now, like when he instructs him to prepare another seed. MIKE seems a tad too servile in this scene, passively accepting the request. Or it could just be that during his 25yrs residence, Coop was awarded personality of the year (not hard in a world inhabited by a backwards speaking bogeyman and a short-circuiting tree... oh, and an infinitely sad Leland). Is there something we are assumed to have known? Is it because Kyle-damn-fine-Maclachlan is just so winningly charismatic that in every situation he is in, he emerges the natural leader? :P


LMFAP / The Arm has always been an enigma. Given that the removal of the Arm seemed to be part of MIKE's break with BOB, I had assumed that the Arm represented the more malicious elements of MIKE's personality and was therefore evil or at least not particularly helpful or trustworthy. OTOH, he does sometimes give useful information. MIKE, I tend to think, is mostly a good guy. I've sometimes wondered if his initial motives for breaking with BOB were less than noble (stolen garmonbozia?), but if this is all just about a power struggle within the Lodges and/or he's allied with DoppelCooper, he certainly didn't have to intervene to save Dougie's life with the cherry pie and (presumably) causing the one Mitchum brother to have the dream about it. Maybe he decided he preferred to be on the side of good anyway, once he'd been away from BOB for a while and no longer shared his taste for violence?
User avatar
N. Needleman
Posts: 1743
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:39 pm

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:19 am

I think the change in LMFAP/The Arm - however much there has been one, as his motives and affiliation in the original series and FWWM were always murky at best - is simply down to his 'evolution.' He has evolved into another state of being and so too have his aims, to something seemingly more explicitly benevolent or at least aiding the side of right.

I have never gotten the ever-popular "Evil MIKE" theory - he is shown throughout the series to be working with Cooper to stop BOB, he is shown in FWWM to be desperate to warn Laura. The scant evidence for his alleged evil comes from a deleted line and script direction from the FWWM shooting script which did not actually get filmed. That said, if MIKE turns out to be behind everything next weekend I take it all back!
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
User avatar
Troubbble
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:55 am

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Troubbble » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:23 am

FlyingSquirrel wrote:
Novalis wrote:
TheGum wrote:Windom Earle says something like if someone were to be able to understand and control the Black Lodge he could re-order the entire world to his liking. I think that is exactly Doppelcoop's goal here, smarter than Earle with less hubris, the irony is that to fulfill this he had to escape the lodge, leaving Dale in there with 25 years to figure out how to work the Lodge himself. It seems as though Doppelcoop had the help of the Lodge (possibly, initially Mike and LMFAP seemed to be more aligned with Doppelcoop) initially but perhaps there was a break in allegiance at some point, leaving Doppelcoop with only the aid of the convenience store. This would give our Dale an advantage, as he's been able to learn and possibly eventually manipulate the Black Lodge, which clearly Doppelcoop is trying to avoid at this point.


It's interesting that Coop is giving orders to MIKE/TOAM now, like when he instructs him to prepare another seed. MIKE seems a tad too servile in this scene, passively accepting the request. Or it could just be that during his 25yrs residence, Coop was awarded personality of the year (not hard in a world inhabited by a backwards speaking bogeyman and a short-circuiting tree... oh, and an infinitely sad Leland). Is there something we are assumed to have known? Is it because Kyle-damn-fine-Maclachlan is just so winningly charismatic that in every situation he is in, he emerges the natural leader? :P


LMFAP / The Arm has always been an enigma. Given that the removal of the Arm seemed to be part of MIKE's break with BOB, I had assumed that the Arm represented the more malicious elements of MIKE's personality and was therefore evil or at least not particularly helpful or trustworthy. OTOH, he does sometimes give useful information. MIKE, I tend to think, is mostly a good guy. I've sometimes wondered if his initial motives for breaking with BOB were less than noble (stolen garmonbozia?), but if this is all just about a power struggle within the Lodges and/or he's allied with DoppelCooper, he certainly didn't have to intervene to save Dougie's life with the cherry pie and (presumably) causing the one Mitchum brother to have the dream about it. Maybe he decided he preferred to be on the side of good anyway, once he'd been away from BOB for a while and no longer shared his taste for violence?



Mike and The Arm are both trying to stop Bob from being a garmonbozia hog, essentially. They are on the same "side" and have both marshalled Cooper to assist them in stopping him. Neither is in league with the doppelganger, unless something incredibly important has been withheld so far.

Neither Mike or The Arm is good or bad in my opinion, they simply ARE--but if forced to choose, I think we'd have to say they're bad. (Where Mike seems more benign, the portrayal of The Arm sort of underlines the impurity of their motives.)

I think The Arm has an inherent connection to Bob in a way the other "spirits" don't, given Mike's backstory -- but he still seems to oppose him consistently, regardless.
Rami Airola
Posts: 230
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:31 am

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Rami Airola » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:25 am

Metamorphia wrote:I had tears in my eyes when Dougie said his goodbyes! What a journey this has been


Oh, I wish it would've been him in Dougie state saying his goodbyes.
Cooper was way too immediately alert for me there. I kinda wished we would've gotten more Dougie now.



Hester Prynne wrote:Damn! I didn't think of that. Wow! I keep thinking of Coop talking to her in the tape recorder - that whole time he was talking to someone who possibly wasn't real and created by his doppelgänger in the future.


Maybe the actual Diane is Cooper's tape recorder.

Maybe they'll find it in the evidence box.

Cooper finds it and it turns into an orb of gold and Cooper says "Diane."
User avatar
tresojos
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:54 pm

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby tresojos » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:29 am

audreys scene truly felt like it was made with love. for both the character and the show. and im really grateful for that. these last episodes have truly returned some of that twin peaks magic that was missed from the cynic tone of the middle episodes.
donna madonna mañana fofana osama bin laden hayward
User avatar
wxray
Posts: 396
Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 5:04 am

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby wxray » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:29 am

The Chantel/Hutch take down was an updated version of the Bonnie and Clyde take down from the 1967 Dunaway/Beatty movie. Loved it!

BTW, in B&C, Clyde is eating the snack before the takedown. He was a little healthier than Chantel. His snack of choice was a pear.
bc1.JPG
bc1.JPG (22.3 KiB) Viewed 1649 times
bc2.JPG
bc2.JPG (25.17 KiB) Viewed 1649 times
Drammatubero
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:30 am

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Drammatubero » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:34 am

If Audrey is really in a "nutt house", maybe the characters of the apparently unlinked Roadhouse's scenes (Tina's daughter, Ruby and the guys who talked about the car crash for example) are her projections of people who she sees everyday in there.
User avatar
nonemoreblack
Posts: 106
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:44 am

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby nonemoreblack » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:35 am

tresojos wrote:audreys scene truly felt like it was made with love. for both the character and the show. and im really grateful for that. these last episodes have truly returned some of that twin peaks magic that was missed from the cynic tone of the middle episodes.


Yes it's been lovely to see how even with the show's desire to avoid leaning on nostalgia, the original characters are all being given moments where it's clear how much he loves them and Twin Peaks.
User avatar
MoondogJR
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:13 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby MoondogJR » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:39 am

BigEd wrote:
nonemoreblack wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if some of the those scenes were real and some weren't, just to add to the dreamy feel of the Roadhouse.


Yes. Exactly this!


I haven't rewatched, but I was thinking: maybe the scenes in which the announcer (JR Starr) is, are the scenes that aren't 'real'?
Sorry if this idea was stated before!
"Your log and I are on the same page."

Return to “Parts Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests