Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:28 am

After a very long day driving to Nevada and exploring for hours around the shores of Lake Tahoe, hurrying after and at times carrying my son, we were heading back to California after dark. As I drove through the tall dark trees at night, the headlights illuminated a pitch black two-lane road winding through the endless forest, and I could totally Feel the Peaks.

Starting up Part 16, it was very cool to see that the opening visuals mirrored exactly what I'd seen through the windshield heading back down through the mountains. I was so excited as the dark story line unfolded along with a moody drone. The music, visuals, and content were very reminiscent of John Carpenter. The power of the opening scene had me fully in its grip. It was exhilarating and dark, and I was tripping on the mood, finding total satisfaction in the cinematic wonder of it.

Then... with the same "sudden horror" that drops during a car crash, it all started to turn upside down on me, everything shattering apart with the ridiculous Tulpa-Diane nonsense. My investment in her was smashed into a million smithereens. To introduce Diane at all is taking on quite a lot. The fact that this person wasn't even Diane is so disappointing and sloppy, and kind of a snatch-back after all the buildup. It felt like a lot had occurred in her life following that fateful night she was hesitant to talk about, and I was really curious to see what her hidden relationship with Cooper was. Instead, there was no actual life to relate, no hidden relationship at all. It was a big nothing that also eliminated her character from having any real value, since it basically negated her existence outright.

The reeling, brain zapped and emotionally sapped state that I was in turned out to be a mere teaser -- an appetizer for the inconceivably flat and impossibly shallow main course that was delivered when Cooper woke up and everything came crashing down around me. It was the lack of climax, the predictable, the dreaded "yes this is all exactly as it appears to be on face value". But worse yet it was treated like a joke, a segment one might have expected to see on Saturday Night Live when the original was airing. It came off like a car commercial featuring Agent Cooper. One great below the belt shot that left me speechless.

Unless this is all retroactively addressed in some way, and that is entirely possible given how this Part ended, then what we've seen here amounts to "all it took to bring Cooper back was a jolt of electricity," rather than him fighting his way out of the stupor, and "Evil Coop = Big Bad" as opposed to, say, something interesting. I'm really hoping that this "perfect" awakening with Cooper was "too perfect" -- that he is "too perfect" -- and that he's either not really Cooper or it didn't even happen at all. Such a bummer, especially because I wanted to like this inevitable scene and hoped it would be more believable.

It was not an entirely negative experience, however those two moments were the most bitter pill. As for the rest, I thought that it was so good that my gut reactions as the Part played out were, "This is the absolute best, worst episode of Twin Peaks!" and "That's it, we've jumped the Owl...". I mean, what gives... this Part was so incredibly good in so many ways, and such a devastating letdown at the same time.

Gotta say, though, that after being disappointed in how fleeting and rare the scary moments have been, this Part was book ended with serious creep outs. Cooper and Richard at the rock was very weird and it made me afraid of nothing. The odd formation lit by a single spotlight. The way Cooper said, "A place do you understand a place?", so reminiscent of the way he spoke at the end of Season 2, but a bit more detached and ominous. It was all creeping terror. Richard's fate struck like a snake from this sinister, motionless dread.

I loved the scene with all parties camped out on Lancelot Court. Hutch and Chantal have killed many but they weren't nearly hard enough for the frustrated accountant: "Lifetime of assassination" meets "Bad day at the office" and the results are unexpected.

The final scene in the Roadhouse was tremendous. The Audrey scenes were already frightening, in particular the ever present nothingness beyond the windows was very unsettling and made me think that it had to be unreal. Also there was the sort of imagery that seems completely normal when you're dreaming, but doesn't quite make sense when you awaken and reflect on it, such as the veil where an exit door should be. However, I refused to believe this was not reality, because it seemed like it would be too good to be true, and I didn't want to be let down by having fantastic expectations.

So, when Audrey and Charlie entered the Roadhouse, I declared, "Whoa, so it's not a coma!" Then when "Audrey's Dance" was announced, I was puzzled for a moment, but that quickly gave way to fear as everyone cleared the way for her and the lights illuminated the dance floor. You could just tell: This isn't real. It felt so sweetly strange and at the same time, chillingly disorienting, amplifying the fragile and discomforting sensations that her scenes have conveyed. I would liken the undertone in Audrey's scenes to the kind of fear that Inland Empire instilled, where you can just feel that something is so off, to the point that you're practically in the mind of the sufferer. It's a very uncomfortable and eerie place to be.

Just as I was totally sold on it, the fight broke out, and I said, "Wait, it is real!" and was completely confused, and then a second later, she's staring into a mirror and obviously lost, finally confirming everything we suspected. What a roller coaster!

All in all, so much good in this Part, but enough bad to make me wonder if the overall story is salvageable at this point. We've been telling the Profoundly Disappointed to wait until all 18 Parts have aired before judging The Return. My experience with Part 16 demonstrates that a few turns in the story can easily "break it" for some -- my joy was completely thrashed -- so I suppose it's logical to expect that in the same way, a few twists might "make it" for others.

Not sure where we can go from here but I'm hoping that much of Part 16 was simply a masterpiece of misdirection, and that Part 17 will come along and ask us how we managed to become the biggest suckers that ever walked the planet. I've steadfastly banked on more depth and less predictability, and now I'm flat broke.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Dreamy Audrey » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:58 am

KyleRickards wrote:
Ross wrote:
Panapaok wrote:Is there a discrepancy, though? Maybe the doppelganger was created when Cooper entered the Red Room. That'd make him 25 years older than Richard.

No it wouldn't. That would make them the SAME age - both 25!!


I'm so confused by the whole argument regarding age.

I simply took it to mean BadCoop exited the Lodge and raped Audrey, causing Richard to come about.

The line from BadCoop above being 25 years his senior is meant to drive home the point that he was conceived 25 years previously. I'm genuinely not getting why people are reading more into this compared with all the other things that we're still looking for answers for. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one.

We get that this line was probably meant to tells us Richard's age, but it is still wrong. Cooper is not 25 years older than Richard. GoodCoop is about 35 years older than Richard, and BadCoop has been in our world about 9 months before Richard was born, so he is 9 months older. It's not reading anything into the line, it's pointing out a mistake. Unless there is an explanation for this age discrepancy (e.g. the doppelganger was formed in the Lodge 25 years before Cooper entered it when GoodCoop was 10 years old, or Richard is a doppelganger or tulpa that was recently created) it's a mistake. There are ways to tell us a characters age without messing up another character's age.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby DeepBlueSeed » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:02 am

cgs027 wrote:Oh, and this also makes the whole Richard and Linda, two birds with one stone clue much more cryptic... If we just saw Richard get fried into oblivion (and still aren't sure about WHO Linda is), how does the ONE STONE come into play?

(Unless those same coordinates somehow come into play RE: Linda).


Only up to page 11 with the comments, so forgive me if this was addressed already but if Richard and Linda are two people that Mr C needs to sacrifice on the stone in order to open a portal - that those two matching coordinates were in fact CORRECT but we just didn't appreciate what Mr C was doing there - might that be why the Fireman told Cooper to find them, in order to prevent them being sacrificed?

In this context it makes me think that Linda might indeed be another child of Mr C, because the implications of sacrificing your own kids seems tied to mythology/religion (and it might explain why Mr C raped two women, if it wasn't for sheer sadistic pleasure).
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby HagbardCeline » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:16 am

Richard and Linda, two birds with one stone. Is it possible that Diane gave birth to Linda?

I think the stone was a trap set for DoppelCoop by Jefferies and/or Mike. I don't think that the coordinates can possibly lead to the place east of Jack Rabbit's Palace, because Briggs had *those* coordinates long before he was given the ones by Hastings/Ruth Davenport in the events just before the series started. It's possible this "other" place is the location of the Mother, but who knows at this point. This has been the least predictable show I have seen in many many years.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby DeepBlueSeed » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:17 am

Mr. Jackpots wrote:
Troubbble wrote:What do we make of the guy who dispatched Hutch and Chantal? Was that "random" and just an exercise in subverting expectations? Felt like maybe more, but I'm at a total loss.


It struck me as a random encounter involving road rage.

And Dougie Jones escapes another attempt on his life.


I did briefly wonder, when we saw the two assassins chatting in their van, whether Dougie would do the usual trick of turning enemies into friends, and what sort of happy positive life these two might have.

And then I remembered Dougie had been electrocuted, and wasn't going to be able to 'fix' them. Ah well.

Come to think of it, did Ike the Spike get a positive ending from his encounter with Dougie? He didn't die, I suppose. I'd like to think he goes on to become a more valuable member of society, once he gets out of jail.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Cipher » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:19 am

vicksvapor77 wrote:I've been thinking more about the creation of the tulpas. Cooper can create one using DNA (hair) and the "seed" of the former tulpa. How did Mr. C create OG Dougie? Presumably from hair but what else? I assume there was no previous seed of that Dougie, right?

Cooper can't create one, as far as we know. That's why he gives his hair to Mike.

The doppelganger can make one because he's a magic motherfucker and inhabited by Bob.

The Diane tulpa was likewise, as far as I can parse, created by the doppelganger to activate as a sleeper agent later (which we saw repeatedly via their text messages this season).

So that chain of events would have been: assault Diane and bring her to the convenience store --> create a tulpa (we don't know what happened to the original Diane) --> let it go live its life for 25 years and have her perform tasks for you when needed, obviously with some serious emotional turmoil for tulpa Diane, who I think was steadily realizing her true nature up through her final scene
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Cooperscoffeecup » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:53 am

Mr. Jackpots wrote:So it must be pretty certain that we will see Julee Cruise at The Roadhouse this Sunday. I'm so psyched.


I would say that is a sure thing. Maybe with The Mitcham gang too. (If you read between the lines of a GMA interview and something that Belushi let slip, that led to Lynch telling him he will send him to the Principals office)
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby douglasb » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:58 am

Uh, Lynch was chastising him for improvising. It was a turn of phrase - not a plot leak!
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby thisisme » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:02 am

Apologies if this is mentioned earlier in the thread, I haven't had chance to read though properly.

Two birds, one stone. Richard and Linda.

Richard died on a (large) stone.

EDIT: Obviously, this is indeed mentioned previously. We'll be back at that place in the final 2 hours for sure.
Last edited by thisisme on Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Cooperscoffeecup » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:19 am

douglasb wrote:Uh, Lynch was chastising him for improvising. It was a turn of phrase - not a plot leak!


He did mention what the scene was which was being filmed at the time (which I didnt mention for obvious reasons)
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby writersblock » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:29 am

Ross wrote:
writersblock wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
I think you're confused. Think about it this way.

David Lynch was born in 1946. His daughter Lula was born in 2012. That makes him 66 years her senior (i.e., he spent 66 years on Earth before she was born).

Now, if we were to retcon DKL's birth to 1956, he would only be 56 years her senior.

The parent's age is the key here; the kid's age is irrelevant.


I am having fun watching people getting confused by this :D

The 25 years line doesn't make sense. Cooper certainly wasn't 25 during season 1 and 2.


That's absolutely fine - I get that. But the "mathematicians" who are jumping on and saying the 25 years seniority is on account of Richard's age is pretty funny - not because I am laughing about people not getting the maths - I understand it's not everyone's strong point. It's because they seem so damned sure!!!!
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Pinky » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:50 am

Amazing episode, loved it. Would feel a lot more confident if we had five hours left instead of two, but hey.

Seems likely that Coop and Cole are never going to meet again, at least not in the 'real' world (wondering about that dark corridor scene, whether it's Lynch or Strobel). Seems very likely that Coop's going to reside in the Lodge permanently, but if he doesn't, there'll be the manufactured Coop in LV to keep us all guessing for years to come...which one lives which life?
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Pinky » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:54 am

I wonder if the Lodge corridor walking scenes and finding Laura in there etc are going to be seen as flashbacks instead of happening in real time. Like the first half an hour could be what Lodge Dale has been up to whilst Dougie's been on his adventures. Not sure the Lodge can work like that, though. Has Coop had access to the Lodge since he came out of the socket (other than his visions of MIKE).

Now that I think about it, if Dale has been doing Lodge stuff, MIKE would not have been appearing all the time pleading with him to wake up.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby writersblock » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:09 am

Troubbble wrote:
FlyingSquirrel wrote:
Novalis wrote:
It's interesting that Coop is giving orders to MIKE/TOAM now, like when he instructs him to prepare another seed. MIKE seems a tad too servile in this scene, passively accepting the request. Or it could just be that during his 25yrs residence, Coop was awarded personality of the year (not hard in a world inhabited by a backwards speaking bogeyman and a short-circuiting tree... oh, and an infinitely sad Leland). Is there something we are assumed to have known? Is it because Kyle-damn-fine-Maclachlan is just so winningly charismatic that in every situation he is in, he emerges the natural leader? :P


LMFAP / The Arm has always been an enigma. Given that the removal of the Arm seemed to be part of MIKE's break with BOB, I had assumed that the Arm represented the more malicious elements of MIKE's personality and was therefore evil or at least not particularly helpful or trustworthy. OTOH, he does sometimes give useful information. MIKE, I tend to think, is mostly a good guy. I've sometimes wondered if his initial motives for breaking with BOB were less than noble (stolen garmonbozia?), but if this is all just about a power struggle within the Lodges and/or he's allied with DoppelCooper, he certainly didn't have to intervene to save Dougie's life with the cherry pie and (presumably) causing the one Mitchum brother to have the dream about it. Maybe he decided he preferred to be on the side of good anyway, once he'd been away from BOB for a while and no longer shared his taste for violence?



Mike and The Arm are both trying to stop Bob from being a garmonbozia hog, essentially. They are on the same "side" and have both marshalled Cooper to assist them in stopping him. Neither is in league with the doppelganger, unless something incredibly important has been withheld so far.

Neither Mike or The Arm is good or bad in my opinion, they simply ARE--but if forced to choose, I think we'd have to say they're bad. (Where Mike seems more benign, the portrayal of The Arm sort of underlines the impurity of their motives.)

I think The Arm has an inherent connection to Bob in a way the other "spirits" don't, given Mike's backstory -- but he still seems to oppose him consistently, regardless.


Right now my take is that Bob popped out with the Doppelganger for fun because he couldn't corrupt and possess Cooper - much like the problem he had with Laura.

Bob isn't supposed to be away from the Lodge for long and there was a definite limit to when he was supposed to return.

In the twenty five years they were out, DoppelCoop has become his own man and is keeping Bob a captive of sorts - taking advantage of his powers for his own nefarious ends. The Doppelganger seemed to be overly joyed at the end of Season 2 and is now a dour bastard!

He wants to find the Experiment that created Bob, maybe to become imbued with his powers and not need him any more? This is all pure conjecture by the way.

The balance of things is all askew. Bob is a part of the equation and has been taken away. Is that why whoever claimed to be Jeffries wants to be with Bob again?

It's not about Good versus Evil - it's about balance being restored. The Black and White Lodge seem to have aligned with Cooper because... who else can stop Evil Coop?

I think the weird and horrible stuff that is happening in Twin Peaks is the real world side effects of the balance of White and Black being messed up by Evil Coop's power play!

I am thoroughly prepared to be proven completely wrong :D
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby dronerstone » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:16 am

I believe actually KILLING Mr C would kill the real Dale Cooper as well.

Apart from that, I believe it's not possible to really kill him. The Woodsmen would probably appear and revive him every time this happens - and we know he's just still here because he pawned a Tulpa in his place...

This implies you'd have to STUN him for as long as possible (Renzo not strong enough!) and then quickly put the ring on his finger before he regains enough consciousness to take it off by himself.

I'm sure Dale and Freddie can work this out together.

PS: sounds to me like a really tough ass old school video game end-of-level boss.

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