Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

[Manwith]

No it wouldn't. That would make them the SAME age - both 25!!

I'm so confused by the whole argument regarding age.

I simply took it to mean BadCoop exited the Lodge and raped Audrey, causing Richard to come about.

The line from BadCoop above being 25 years his senior is meant to drive home the point that he was conceived 25 years previously. I'm genuinely not getting why people are reading more into this compared with all the other things that we're still looking for answers for. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one.

We get that this line was probably meant to tells us Richard's age, but it is still wrong. Cooper is not 25 years older than Richard. GoodCoop is about 35 years older than Richard, and BadCoop has been in our world about 9 months before Richard was born, so he is 9 months older. It's not reading anything into the line, it's pointing out a mistake. Unless there is an explanation for this age discrepancy (e.g. the doppelganger was formed in the Lodge 25 years before Cooper entered it when GoodCoop was 10 years old, or Richard is a doppelganger or tulpa that was recently created) it's a mistake. There are ways to tell us a characters age without messing up another character's age.

If bad coop is cooper's shadow self per Hawk's legend I think he's as old as Cooper, not 25 years old. I think everyone has a shadow born when they are born.

[Novalis]

I'm so confused by the whole argument regarding age.

I simply took it to mean BadCoop exited the Lodge and raped Audrey, causing Richard to come about.

The line from BadCoop above being 25 years his senior is meant to drive home the point that he was conceived 25 years previously. I'm genuinely not getting why people are reading more into this compared with all the other things that we're still looking for answers for. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one.

We get that this line was probably meant to tells us Richard's age, but it is still wrong. Cooper is not 25 years older than Richard. GoodCoop is about 35 years older than Richard, and BadCoop has been in our world about 9 months before Richard was born, so he is 9 months older. It's not reading anything into the line, it's pointing out a mistake. Unless there is an explanation for this age discrepancy (e.g. the doppelganger was formed in the Lodge 25 years before Cooper entered it when GoodCoop was 10 years old, or Richard is a doppelganger or tulpa that was recently created) it's a mistake. There are ways to tell us a characters age without messing up another character's age.

If bad coop is cooper's shadow self per Hawk's legend I think he's as old as Cooper, not 25 years old. I think everyone has a shadow born when they are born.

Is this necessarily the case for L/F though? Remember the old tale from IE:

A little boy went out to play. When he opened his door, he saw the world. As he passed through the doorway, he caused a reflection. Evil was born. Evil was born, and followed the boy.

According to the Wiki, Cooper was 35 when he was assigned to the Laura Palmer case. If the little boy were, say, 10 years old when he 'caused a reflection' then DoppelCoop could be 25 at that point, i.e. 25 years older than Richard.

[PsychoFox]

So, now Louie is a doctor in Las Vegas ?

I would have prefered to see her at the Great Northern, bothering Ben.

[guildnavigator]

If all the characters in a dream are really aspects of the dreamer, as the log lady says in the introduction to episode 9 (s02e01)

The "cooper's doppelgänger" character was conceived 25 years prior to the Richard Horne character.

The only place he's "25 years his senior" is in the real world, where they are characters on a TV show.

Thought it was an interesting thought.

[Novalis]

If all the characters in a dream are really aspects of the dreamer, as the log lady says in the introduction to episode 9 (s02e01)

The "cooper's doppelgänger" character was conceived 25 years prior to the Richard Horne character.

The only place he's "25 years his senior" is in the real world, where they are characters on a TV show.

Thought it was an interesting thought.

Bingo! This also occurred to me. It's like the two actors discussing the script, as in Tieck's Puss-in-Boots. 'My character is 25 years your character's senior' (and we haven't really used you much, and you're no big threat to the protagonist, so therefore you are expendable).

Hilarious. And Transcendental.

Sidebar: is DoppelCoop aware of his own fictive status? Cole seems on the brink of it too.

[sewhite2000]

He forgot the ring under the pillow

I had the same concern initially, but then decided that he probably just grabbed it while he was getting dressed. My guess is that he's supposed to somehow get it onto Mr. C's finger before he is killed so that he'll be pulled into the lodge/waiting room like Ray was.

Yes, although I'm not sure as to why Diane didn't need to be wearing the ring.

Dougie Jones wasn't wearing the ring, right? Maybe tulpas automatically go into the Lodge when their time on Earth expires.

[writersblock]

I had the same concern initially, but then decided that he probably just grabbed it while he was getting dressed. My guess is that he's supposed to somehow get it onto Mr. C's finger before he is killed so that he'll be pulled into the lodge/waiting room like Ray was.

Yes, although I'm not sure as to why Diane didn't need to be wearing the ring.

Dougie Jones wasn't wearing the ring, right? Maybe tulpas automatically go into the Lodge when their time on Earth expires.

Dougie was wearing the ring. Remember he shrinks and then it falls from his finger in Part 3?

[ThumbsUp]

The music when Coop says goodbye to Sonny Jim and Janey-E is the same that plays when the Fireman and Senorita Dido send Laura to Earth.

Few parallels... "families" of 3 sending one member into the fray to combat evil, further highlighting a universal truth, that Cooper and Laura are the heroes of the show.

[Deep Thought]

According to the Wiki, Cooper was 35 when he was assigned to the Laura Palmer case. If the little boy were, say, 10 years old when he 'caused a reflection' then DoppelCoop could be 25 at that point, i.e. 25 years older than Richard.

Yes. Thank you. It amuses me how many people here assume Mark Frost is not up to speed on simple addition. This is and the "gotcha" time stamp mismatch on a text message make me feel some people think that this story, focusing on time and age, is casually sloppy with details regarding time and age.

[sewhite2000]

How can Coop be awake with BadCooper still out there? Didn't Mike say back in episode 2 that two Dales couldn't be out at the same time and one would have to come back in for him to go out?

It doesn't appear to be the "natural order" of things (if there's anything natural about this), but the exchange of Cooper with Dougie Jones was apparently a somewhat workable substitute for the exchange of Cooper with Evil Coop. I don't think they can both exist in the real world indefinitely. I think Mike told Cooper one of them would have to kill the other (haven't rewatched any of the episodes, so I'm working from memory). But there may be some precedence for this. In the very first Blue Rose case, Gordon and Jeffries may have found a woman and her doppleganger existing on Earth at the same time (or it may have been a woman and her tulpa).

[sewhite2000]

Finally caught up on all of the pages and surprised nobody has mentioned what the connection of 'the seed' and tulpas has to do with the box in Buenos Aires.

I'm particularly convinced too by an earlier poster's idea of Albert being involved with the 'Jeffries' call in episode 2. Maybe he is still working with Jeffries and the coordinates he so carelessly allowed Diane to crib were trying to set Doppelcoop up by matching with Jeffries'.

Also think there seems to be a lot of conflation in this thread between doppelgangers and tulpas. I may have misunderstood the wiki pages i read on the subject but I don't think tulpas are necessarily 'people' much less are required to look like anything at all. They are simply ideas or imaginations which are 'willed' into reality. The Blue Rose is not a doppelganger of a red one IMO.

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I think the "Jeffries" Evil Coop spoke to Episode 2 was a tulpa, represented by the box in Buenos Aries. Tulpas maybe don't always take human form, and, as we've seen, Jeffries apparently doesn't even have a human form for a tulpa to mimic anymore.

[Rik Renault]

According to the Wiki, Cooper was 35 when he was assigned to the Laura Palmer case. If the little boy were, say, 10 years old when he 'caused a reflection' then DoppelCoop could be 25 at that point, i.e. 25 years older than Richard.

Yes. Thank you. It amuses me how many people here assume Mark Frost is not up to speed on simple addition. This is and the "gotcha" time stamp mismatch on a text message make me feel some people think that this story, focusing on time and age, is casually sloppy with details regarding time and age.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until all is said and done, but I think this is still a bit of a reach even if it is plausible.

[sewhite2000]

Yes, although I'm not sure as to why Diane didn't need to be wearing the ring.

Dougie Jones wasn't wearing the ring, right? Maybe tulpas automatically go into the Lodge when their time on Earth expires.

Dougie was wearing the ring. Remember he shrinks and then it falls from his finger in Part 3?

Oops, guess I forgot about that. Well ... okay, I don't know why "Diane" didn't need a ring.

[Rik Renault]

Finally caught up on all of the pages and surprised nobody has mentioned what the connection of 'the seed' and tulpas has to do with the box in Buenos Aires.

I'm particularly convinced too by an earlier poster's idea of Albert being involved with the 'Jeffries' call in episode 2. Maybe he is still working with Jeffries and the coordinates he so carelessly allowed Diane to crib were trying to set Doppelcoop up by matching with Jeffries'.

Also think there seems to be a lot of conflation in this thread between doppelgangers and tulpas. I may have misunderstood the wiki pages i read on the subject but I don't think tulpas are necessarily 'people' much less are required to look like anything at all. They are simply ideas or imaginations which are 'willed' into reality. The Blue Rose is not a doppelganger of a red one IMO.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

I think the "Jeffries" Evil Coop spoke to Episode 2 was a tulpa, represented by the box in Buenos Aries. Tulpas maybe don't always take human form, and, as we've seen, Jeffries apparently doesn't even have a human form for a tulpa to mimic anymore.

This was where I was heading with it. I still find it weird that Cole seemed to 'forget' about that day Jeffries came in to the Philadelphia office until his dream, as did Albert. It's almost as if Jeffries has been willed into existence by the Blue Rose taskforce.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[sewhite2000]

If all the characters in a dream are really aspects of the dreamer, as the log lady says in the introduction to episode 9 (s02e01)

The "cooper's doppelgänger" character was conceived 25 years prior to the Richard Horne character.

The only place he's "25 years his senior" is in the real world, where they are characters on a TV show.

Thought it was an interesting thought.

Bingo! This also occurred to me. It's like the two actors discussing the script, as in Tieck's Puss-in-Boots. 'My character is 25 years your character's senior' (and we haven't really used you much, and you're no big threat to the protagonist, so therefore you are expendable).

Hilarious. And Transcendental.

Sidebar: is DoppelCoop aware of his own fictive status? Cole seems on the brink of it too.

When you say "aware of his own fictive status", do you mean is he aware he's not the original Cooper? I think he obviously is aware of that. He's been plotting for most of his time on Earth for dealing with real Cooper's return, creating tulpas of both Diane and Cooper. If Janey-E really is the real Diane's half-sister, it appears she was a pawn in an elaborate plan set up by Evil Cooper to meet and fall in love with Dougie. Evil Coop was anticipating Dougie to be in a specific place at the time Cooper switched places with him exactly when assassins were coming to take out Dougie. It was his intention that Cooper would be killed almost immediately upon his return to Earth and he himself would never have to go back, but that didn't work out, thanks to Cooper dropping the Great Northern key.