Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

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writersblock
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby writersblock » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:40 am

sewhite2000 wrote:
TheGum wrote:
sewhite2000 wrote:

Oops, guess I forgot about that. Well ... okay, I don't know why "Diane" didn't need a ring.


Because she was killed, not repossessed by the Lodge.


But Ray was killed and had to have a ring to go into the Lodge? Are there different rules for tulpas and humans?


I would imagine so.

And remember Ray was supposed to slip the ring onto Doppelcoop - that's why he had it. Sending Ray to the Lodge was his way of telling them they had failed?

I said in previous threads - my take is that if you die, you might go to the lodge (depending on your circumstances) ... if you die with the ring on it guarantees it
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Novalis » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:40 am

blue_rose_case wrote:
Framed_Angel wrote:
vicksvapor77 wrote: Oh man, very possibly! Just looked, there's also characters named Martini (Audrey and Charlie ordered martinis at the bar) and Dale!
I'm loving this comparison. "Cuckoo's Nest" is a favorite film of mine. Seeing Audrey's final image Part 16 dressed in all white evoked for me more of a mental institution than a hospital coma ward. And that was because all-white attire was what inpatients like McMurphy had to wear, as well as orderlies and nurses.

Also the film featured Brad Dourif's breakout role, who has since been cast in Blue Velvet and Dune.


There was also the music from OFOTCN (Jack Nietszche's Charmaine) used during the scene where Richard attacks and robs Sylvia.


Oh my lord! Well spotted.
As a matter of fact, 'Chalfont' was the name of the people that rented this space before. Two Chalfonts. Weird, huh?
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby DeepBlueSeed » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:57 am

ThumbsUp wrote:So Mr. C didn't manufacture Dougie, right? Coop did? That's what I now figure... why else would Coop know how to make tulpas, and why else would Janey-E be related to Diane?


I definitely didn't read it that way. I assume that whilst Dougie Coop has kind of been on automatic, actual Coop has been working out a lot of the stuff that's happened to him. And I think that, on some level at least, he's able to understand how lodge spirits can create these constructs from the seed of a person's identity.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Denise's Pieces » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:14 am

DeepBlueSeed wrote:
Mr. Jackpots wrote:
Troubbble wrote:What do we make of the guy who dispatched Hutch and Chantal? Was that "random" and just an exercise in subverting expectations? Felt like maybe more, but I'm at a total loss.


It struck me as a random encounter involving road rage.

And Dougie Jones escapes another attempt on his life.


I did briefly wonder, when we saw the two assassins chatting in their van, whether Dougie would do the usual trick of turning enemies into friends, and what sort of happy positive life these two might have.

And then I remembered Dougie had been electrocuted, and wasn't going to be able to 'fix' them. Ah well.

Come to think of it, did Ike the Spike get a positive ending from his encounter with Dougie? He didn't die, I suppose. I'd like to think he goes on to become a more valuable member of society, once he gets out of jail.

I don't know how they do things in the UK, but in the fine state of Nevada, a killer like Ike the Spike will NEVER leave prison.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby DeepBlueSeed » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:20 am

KHAN Games wrote:
thunderclap82 wrote:
KHAN Games wrote:Anyone notice the continuity error from the text that DoppleCoop sent Diane? Two different time stamps between cuts, one from an iMessage and one from a Text Message. Haha. Probably not relevant.


I haven't caught up on all the posts in this thread yet, but Mr. C's message didn't go through initially. So the the discrepancy in the timestamp is plausible because she's seeing the timestamp of when the message actually went through, not when he first tried to send it.

That excuse can't be plausable. When someone "sent" the text has no bearing on the timestamp shown when someone receives the text.

Someone only receives a text once. The timestamp shown when someone receives a text is the time when they receive a text. That time will never change, and the method of delivery "iMessage or Text Message" will never change.

I won't argue that the time difference between the time a text is sent and a text is received can be different. But we were looking at HER phone both times. We are only concerned about the time she sees. And she sees two different times in two different scenes.

I'm not saying it means anything other than a continuity error.


It probably is a continuity error but, at the same time, Mr C does get through phones like a chain smoker gets through boxes of cigarettes. He might've sent the same message from multiple phones.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby vicksvapor77 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:26 am

KyleRickards wrote:
Ross wrote:
Panapaok wrote:Is there a discrepancy, though? Maybe the doppelganger was created when Cooper entered the Red Room. That'd make him 25 years older than Richard.

No it wouldn't. That would make them the SAME age - both 25!!


I'm so confused by the whole argument regarding age.

I simply took it to mean BadCoop exited the Lodge and raped Audrey, causing Richard to come about.

The line from BadCoop above being 25 years his senior is meant to drive home the point that he was conceived 25 years previously. I'm genuinely not getting why people are reading more into this compared with all the other things that we're still looking for answers for. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I agree that I think it was probably sloppy script work and nothing more to indicate Richard's age but "25 years your senior" doesn't mean "you're 25 and i'm senior to you in age." It means it literally as "I'm 25 years older than you." Not "I'm at least 25 years older than you" either. Do you see what I mean? Shouldn't the line have been, "You're 25 years my junior."
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Ross » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:31 am

Dreamy Audrey wrote:
KyleRickards wrote:
Ross wrote:No it wouldn't. That would make them the SAME age - both 25!!


I'm so confused by the whole argument regarding age.

I simply took it to mean BadCoop exited the Lodge and raped Audrey, causing Richard to come about.

The line from BadCoop above being 25 years his senior is meant to drive home the point that he was conceived 25 years previously. I'm genuinely not getting why people are reading more into this compared with all the other things that we're still looking for answers for. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one.

We get that this line was probably meant to tells us Richard's age, but it is still wrong. Cooper is not 25 years older than Richard. GoodCoop is about 35 years older than Richard, and BadCoop has been in our world about 9 months before Richard was born, so he is 9 months older. It's not reading anything into the line, it's pointing out a mistake. Unless there is an explanation for this age discrepancy (e.g. the doppelganger was formed in the Lodge 25 years before Cooper entered it when GoodCoop was 10 years old, or Richard is a doppelganger or tulpa that was recently created) it's a mistake. There are ways to tell us a characters age without messing up another character's age.

Right- the phrase "25 years your senior" means the person is 25 years older than the other. Meaning they were 25 when the other was born. So yes, its a mistake.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:49 am

Shouldn't the line have been, "You're 25 years my junior."


no, if the father was 35 when the son was born, then there will always be a 35 year age gap, whether the son is 4, 25, or 50 :wink:
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby vicksvapor77 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:58 am

referendum wrote:
Shouldn't the line have been, "You're 25 years my junior."


no, if the father was 35 when the son was born, then there will always be a 35 year age gap, whether the son is 4, 25, or 50 :wink:


Sorry, yeah! So "You're 35 years my junior" lol.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Harry Yallrite » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:20 am

Mr. Strawberry wrote:After a very long day driving to Nevada and exploring for hours around the shores of Lake Tahoe, hurrying after and at times carrying my son, we were heading back to California after dark. As I drove through the tall dark trees at night, the headlights illuminated a pitch black two-lane road winding through the endless forest, and I could totally Feel the Peaks.

Starting up Part 16, it was very cool to see that the opening visuals mirrored exactly what I'd seen through the windshield heading back down through the mountains. I was so excited as the dark story line unfolded along with a moody drone. The music, visuals, and content were very reminiscent of John Carpenter. The power of the opening scene had me fully in its grip. It was exhilarating and dark, and I was tripping on the mood, finding total satisfaction in the cinematic wonder of it.

Then... with the same "sudden horror" that drops during a car crash, it all started to turn upside down on me, everything shattering apart with the ridiculous Tulpa-Diane nonsense. My investment in her was smashed into a million smithereens. To introduce Diane at all is taking on quite a lot. The fact that this person wasn't even Diane is so disappointing and sloppy, and kind of a snatch-back after all the buildup. It felt like a lot had occurred in her life following that fateful night she was hesitant to talk about, and I was really curious to see what her hidden relationship with Cooper was. Instead, there was no actual life to relate, no hidden relationship at all. It was a big nothing that also eliminated her character from having any real value, since it basically negated her existence outright.

The reeling, brain zapped and emotionally sapped state that I was in turned out to be a mere teaser -- an appetizer for the inconceivably flat and impossibly shallow main course that was delivered when Cooper woke up and everything came crashing down around me. It was the lack of climax, the predictable, the dreaded "yes this is all exactly as it appears to be on face value". But worse yet it was treated like a joke, a segment one might have expected to see on Saturday Night Live when the original was airing. It came off like a car commercial featuring Agent Cooper. One great below the belt shot that left me speechless.

Unless this is all retroactively addressed in some way, and that is entirely possible given how this Part ended, then what we've seen here amounts to "all it took to bring Cooper back was a jolt of electricity," rather than him fighting his way out of the stupor, and "Evil Coop = Big Bad" as opposed to, say, something interesting. I'm really hoping that this "perfect" awakening with Cooper was "too perfect" -- that he is "too perfect" -- and that he's either not really Cooper or it didn't even happen at all. Such a bummer, especially because I wanted to like this inevitable scene and hoped it would be more believable.

It was not an entirely negative experience, however those two moments were the most bitter pill. As for the rest, I thought that it was so good that my gut reactions as the Part played out were, "This is the absolute best, worst episode of Twin Peaks!" and "That's it, we've jumped the Owl...". I mean, what gives... this Part was so incredibly good in so many ways, and such a devastating letdown at the same time.

Gotta say, though, that after being disappointed in how fleeting and rare the scary moments have been, this Part was book ended with serious creep outs. Cooper and Richard at the rock was very weird and it made me afraid of nothing. The odd formation lit by a single spotlight. The way Cooper said, "A place do you understand a place?", so reminiscent of the way he spoke at the end of Season 2, but a bit more detached and ominous. It was all creeping terror. Richard's fate struck like a snake from this sinister, motionless dread.

I loved the scene with all parties camped out on Lancelot Court. Hutch and Chantal have killed many but they weren't nearly hard enough for the frustrated accountant: "Lifetime of assassination" meets "Bad day at the office" and the results are unexpected.

The final scene in the Roadhouse was tremendous. The Audrey scenes were already frightening, in particular the ever present nothingness beyond the windows was very unsettling and made me think that it had to be unreal. Also there was the sort of imagery that seems completely normal when you're dreaming, but doesn't quite make sense when you awaken and reflect on it, such as the veil where an exit door should be. However, I refused to believe this was not reality, because it seemed like it would be too good to be true, and I didn't want to be let down by having fantastic expectations.

So, when Audrey and Charlie entered the Roadhouse, I declared, "Whoa, so it's not a coma!" Then when "Audrey's Dance" was announced, I was puzzled for a moment, but that quickly gave way to fear as everyone cleared the way for her and the lights illuminated the dance floor. You could just tell: This isn't real. It felt so sweetly strange and at the same time, chillingly disorienting, amplifying the fragile and discomforting sensations that her scenes have conveyed. I would liken the undertone in Audrey's scenes to the kind of fear that Inland Empire instilled, where you can just feel that something is so off, to the point that you're practically in the mind of the sufferer. It's a very uncomfortable and eerie place to be.

Just as I was totally sold on it, the fight broke out, and I said, "Wait, it is real!" and was completely confused, and then a second later, she's staring into a mirror and obviously lost, finally confirming everything we suspected. What a roller coaster!

All in all, so much good in this Part, but enough bad to make me wonder if the overall story is salvageable at this point. We've been telling the Profoundly Disappointed to wait until all 18 Parts have aired before judging The Return. My experience with Part 16 demonstrates that a few turns in the story can easily "break it" for some -- my joy was completely thrashed -- so I suppose it's logical to expect that in the same way, a few twists might "make it" for others.

Not sure where we can go from here but I'm hoping that much of Part 16 was simply a masterpiece of misdirection, and that Part 17 will come along and ask us how we managed to become the biggest suckers that ever walked the planet. I've steadfastly banked on more depth and less predictability, and now I'm flat broke.


Reading this review was more mentally exhausting than getting through the first 16 episodes of The Return. Not saying I wasn't entertained - but I need a nap now. But first I need to brush my teeth...
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby aldiboronti » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:26 am

djsunyc wrote:
Esselgee wrote:This will probably be our last chance ever to speculate between episodes of Twin Peaks :(


my hope is that everyone cancels showtime next monday which forces them to ante up for season 4.


I hear what you're saying but we do owe Showtime an immense debt of gratitude for bringing this amazing show to us, I'd feel bad for cancelling now.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Harry Yallrite » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:30 am

We will see the insurance agent from PART 1 again; the scene with Lucy explaining the "two sheriff Truman's" will now conclude with her looking at the business card he handed her, which will say "DOUGLAS JONES - Lucky 7 Insurance Agent". Cooper definitely sent that guy in there pretending to sell insurance to see if Harry was still around & get him outside.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby aldiboronti » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:31 am

Deep Thought wrote:
ThumbsUp wrote:
Deep Thought wrote:So Audrey is in the nuthouse. And things play in reverse there. Glad Cooper got out.

Best part ever.


I kind of took it to mean that there's something supernatural/sinister about the Roadhouse. The band playing during the credits seemed ominous. And the fact that the penultimate episode closed out on the Audrey scene suggests to me there's something much bigger and broader at play than just "this one character went nuts."


Just trying to stay concise. A lot to unpack here. As I mentioned a few posts ago, maybe all the Roadhouse scenes are from a parallel story, whether Audrey's or someone eleses.


Some of them must be real, such as James and Freddie's trouble with Renee's husband and friend. That had consequences which go outside the Roadhouse.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Wally Brando » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:42 am

sewhite2000 wrote:
TheGum wrote:
sewhite2000 wrote:

Oops, guess I forgot about that. Well ... okay, I don't know why "Diane" didn't need a ring.


Because she was killed, not repossessed by the Lodge.


But Ray was killed and had to have a ring to go into the Lodge? Are there different rules for tulpas and humans?

If I had to guess, I'd say it's the difference between regular people like Ray, who only end up in the Red Room if they're wearing the ring when they're killed, and those associated with the lodge, like Dougie or 'Diane'.

I went with associated because Leland (presumably) was a regular person, however it doesn't explain why Mr C would need to be wearing the ring.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Nighthawk » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:46 am

aldiboronti wrote:
Deep Thought wrote:
ThumbsUp wrote:
I kind of took it to mean that there's something supernatural/sinister about the Roadhouse. The band playing during the credits seemed ominous. And the fact that the penultimate episode closed out on the Audrey scene suggests to me there's something much bigger and broader at play than just "this one character went nuts."


Just trying to stay concise. A lot to unpack here. As I mentioned a few posts ago, maybe all the Roadhouse scenes are from a parallel story, whether Audrey's or someone eleses.


Some of them must be real, such as James and Freddie's trouble with Renee's husband and friend. That had consequences which go outside the Roadhouse.


One common theme, running through all of the Roadhouse scenes that I can recall, is that nothing good ever happens in them. It's always filled with troubled people of all sorts. The notable exception was James' "Just You" performance and that one almost certainly wasn't real, much like Audrey's dance. I am still on the fence whether Freddie is real or a projection of James' mind. We will find out in just a few days. It's going to be difficult to watch that final installment, knowing that this is the end.

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