Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

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Manwith
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Manwith » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:41 pm

Troubbble wrote:
Manwith wrote:
FlyingSquirrel wrote:(On the other other hand, she shouldn't be asking who Jeffries is in Episode 4 if she'd already reviewed the dossier, so... :? )


Maybe she just asked it for conversation sake. The full story was classified and she couldn't read it.

Oddly, in FWWM Gordon implies Jeffries is a *famous* missing FBI Agent people learn about during their Agent training. This is also a bit inconsistent with the new show where it seems he isn't well known. Per the FWWM script Gordon said " COOPER, MEET THE LONG LOST PHILLIP JEFFRIES. YOU MAY HAVE HEARD OF HIM AT THE ACADEMY."

I imagine the idea in FWWM is he's famous the way D.B. Cooper is in real life, though the "blue rose" aspect may not be famous. The new show seems to have dropped that idea. (I guess it's possible he's famous for something other than being missing.)


Saying "you may have heard of him" is a far cry from saying that his disappearance is famed in FBI circles, or that prospective agents are taught about him at the academy. That's a leap.


Gordon clearly thinks Jeffries may be taught to agents in the FBI training academy. He specifically mentions the academy.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Snailhead » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:17 pm

It's also possible that Jeffries was well-known back in 89, but people stopped discussing him at a certain point for whatever reason.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:21 pm

Esselgee wrote:With all these big acts at the roadhouse, shouldn't they have some big security requirements? So far we've seen at least 1 (or 2?) fights, unpermitted smoking, a guy starting to choke a girl while threatening to rape her, and a small woman being picked up by 2 large men and forcibly removed from her booth. I guess that the guy that told Richard to stop smoking was part of the security team? He looked more like a bartender though.

Will Julee cruised be announced as "Julee Cruise"? That would be the weirdest one yet.


I get that this aspect of the Roadhouse is troublingly unrealistic, but I wouldn't read too much to it. Consumer-merchant transactions in TV and movies still almost never reflect the way reality has been for many years now. In TV and movies, a character orders coffee and within seconds gets coffee. The girl behind the register doesn't ask would you like to get a blueberry muffin or a cinnamon scone with that? She doesn't ask what size he wants, and if he says medium, she doesn't ask would you like to get a large for only 70 cents more? She doesn't ask do you have a membership? And if he doesn't, she doesn't detail how if he pays only $25 a year, he can get 10 per cent off on all purchases. In real life, it takes you five minutes to buy a cup of coffee because of all the questions imposed on you by corporate capitalism mentality. In TV and the movies, it still only takes 30 seconds ... and we prefer it that way.

So, the lack of security for an Eddie Vedder performance is not realistic in our world, but is probably realistic in the Twin Peaks world.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:23 pm

IcedOver wrote:I'm sure this has been discussed a lot, but humor me as someone who only watched this episode once and didn't much like it. Mr. Cooper said that he received coordinates from three people. One would be Ray, whose coordinates obviously led to the rock. The other would be Jeffries, whose probably led to that as well. However, Diane hadn't yet relayed the coordinates from Ruth's arm, correct? Is this just lazy plotting (not unusual for this show), or am I missing something?


Pretty sure when Diane was tapping away at her phone mouthing the mnemonic device "Co - or - di - nates" that she sent him coordinates. Maybe not the same ones she sent him this episode, but ...
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby writersblock » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:52 am

Mr. Strawberry wrote:If Richard's father was born in 1973, then he would be nearly 25 years his senior. That's one small detail about his arrest report that seems to "make sense" in light of what he said to Richard regarding their age difference. The report listed his birthdate as August 15, 1973.

It was regarded as a goof here on the forums, yet it's hard to imagine that we might recognize an error of that nature, while the entire production team would not. It's rather glaring, wouldn't you say? Why his birth date would be identical to William Hastings, and why it would differ from Dale's, though, is just about impossible for me to make sense of, if these are not errors.


I keep thinking about all the glaring errors that were in TSHOTP - stuff that there was no way they could have gotten wrong on account of reviewing the first two seasons... it feels to me like there aren't any mistakes here.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby writersblock » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:00 am

Framed_Angel wrote:
TheGum wrote:Ok- so here are my thoughts after a rewatch: -I'm still confused about the Diane scene with the agents. The memories are definitely real, the emotion is real. I think she figures out that she's not really her in the moment. And I think Naido is her. It's notable that the tulpas do seem to become their own person to a degree.
The only thing about Diane = Naido that bothers me is what Andy said. "She is important -- people want her dead." TIf this applies to Diane - - why?? Do we have time to go into an exposition of all Diane's possible enemies??... I'd prefer Naido is blending into the story somehow plausibly given what we know of her other than she's a wanted woman. Of course, instead of giving her sanctuary alongside medical attention and questioning her, they drape her in a robe ("That's better -- she just needed clothes! Problem solved!"); throw her in a jail cell alongside a drooling mimic and a craven deputy; ... nonetheless I want to keep options open who/ what else Diane's identity might be connecting with at the sheriff's or anywhere in Twin Peaks.

I haven't yet processed all the implications how Diane/Tulpa-Diane seemed so real -- had a lover leaving the apartment in Philly when Albert & Gordon paid their visit -- reaction to seeing/ talking to Mr C was so real - - snarky with her retorts and checking her text messages with all the familiar casualness as well as concern as we learned what those messages were - - but I've reached processing-burnout-syndrome trying to apply any sensible analytical thought to tulpas. If they resist deconstructing I'm not the one to deconstruct their meaning.

re: "I'm at the sheriff's staion":
She/ Diane's 'real' identity could be someone on-her-way to Twin Peaks but hasnt' necessarily arrived yet. To get all dian-anagrammy again we've seen the M/S/C-andies are en route there haven't we? And "DIANE" rearranges to "A-N-D-I-E"~


That can easily explained by Diane/Naido knowing something that Evil Coop / or someone else wants or wants hidden...
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby DeepBlueSeed » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:26 am

DopplerDonut wrote:I found it interesting, how Albert and Tammy were ready for Diane the Tulpa. Almost as if Albert told Tammy what a tulpa might do under stress ...


I think they just believed Diane to be duplicitous. Tammy seems absolutely delighted to learn that Diane was a tulpa when she blinks out of existence.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby DeepBlueSeed » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:43 am

sewhite2000 wrote:
IcedOver wrote:I'm sure this has been discussed a lot, but humor me as someone who only watched this episode once and didn't much like it. Mr. Cooper said that he received coordinates from three people. One would be Ray, whose coordinates obviously led to the rock. The other would be Jeffries, whose probably led to that as well. However, Diane hadn't yet relayed the coordinates from Ruth's arm, correct? Is this just lazy plotting (not unusual for this show), or am I missing something?


Pretty sure when Diane was tapping away at her phone mouthing the mnemonic device "Co - or - di - nates" that she sent him coordinates. Maybe not the same ones she sent him this episode, but ...


That was just when she was checking the co-ordinates for herself, as she then zooms into the map to confirm it is Twin Peaks. She possibly sends Mr C the co-ordinates immediately after the scene ends (or sends slightly different ones), but we never see that.

As I understand it though, two sets of coordinates can only be identical if a. they were from independent sources and correct (or people were otherwise misled by the same source) or b. they were from two sources that have colluded together (in which there's a greater chance the wrong coordinates have been deliberately given). Of the three potential sources, I can't see Diane having worked with Ray, so I'd assume that "Jeffries" is source of one of the two matching sets of coordinates.

Furthermore, those matching coordinates went to a specifically dangerous place, so if Diane sent one of the sets then she either changed the coordinates she originally sent (perhaps she has also been working with "Jeffries") or Albert knows a lot more than we currently understand.

It's curious as to why Diane would have to send the coordinates again, unless she previously sent the wrong ones. That is, of course, assuming the time we see her send coordinates in part 16 ISN'T the only time she sends coordinates, and that time ISN'T out of synch.

I'm looking forward to rewatching the whole season again when we have all 18 parts, in order to make sense of everything.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby whoisalhedges » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:46 am

Hester Prynne wrote:Audrey's Dance made me question whether or not James' performance was real, as well. Renee does say "there's something wrong with that guy," in Part 2, so the scene with her crying over his performance seems like quite a leap.

Pretty sure it was Shelly & Renee's other friend (who was only in that scene, the one sitting directly across from Renee) who said there was something wrong with him.

Anyway, it was Ed & Norma's "happy ending" which made me doubt the reality of James' performance. I thought "hey, all the Hurley men's dreams are coming true!"

Dreams.

Coming true? Maybe - maybe not. But Dreams.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby DeepBlueSeed » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:25 am

whoisalhedges wrote:Anyway, it was Ed & Norma's "happy ending" which made me doubt the reality of James' performance. I thought "hey, all the Hurley men's dreams are coming true!"

Dreams.

Coming true? Maybe - maybe not. But Dreams.


I hope Major Brigg's dream of his son finding himself on the right path doesn't turn out to be a dream. Much of the story in Twin Peaks seems to hinge on Bobby being able to point the other police in the right direction.

I guess there's also Nadine's dream of quiet drapes too - that definitely has become a thing.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:28 am

So here's one, I've been seeing the conversations about the texts being different and someone pointed out the order of the bracelets is different. Maybe DIANE created the Tulpa Diane, and it was the real one who first got the text and the Tulpa who went upstairs to tell the story.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Cipher » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:39 am

Framed_Angel wrote:I haven't yet processed all the implications how Diane/Tulpa-Diane seemed so real -- had a lover leaving the apartment in Philly when Albert & Gordon paid their visit -- reaction to seeing/ talking to Mr C was so real - - snarky with her retorts and checking her text messages with all the familiar casualness as well as concern as we learned what those messages were - - but I've reached processing-burnout-syndrome trying to apply any sensible analytical thought to tulpas. If they resist deconstructing I'm not the one to deconstruct their meaning.

Why shouldn't that all be the case? Dougie had a wife and son and had no idea as to his true nature.

If the Diane we saw was a copy, it still stands to reason that she might have inherited all of the original's memories and been oblivious as to her true nature until Mr. C started interacting with her.

Life for the tulpas is a bit tragic, as they're still essentially real people. Then again, they don't die, exactly; they just turn to gold, ready to be seeded again.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Hester Prynne » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:43 am

whoisalhedges wrote:
Hester Prynne wrote:Audrey's Dance made me question whether or not James' performance was real, as well. Renee does say "there's something wrong with that guy," in Part 2, so the scene with her crying over his performance seems like quite a leap.

Pretty sure it was Shelly & Renee's other friend (who was only in that scene, the one sitting directly across from Renee) who said there was something wrong with him.


You're right - it is her friend that says that. - Went back and rewatched. Sorry, James :)
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Re: RE: Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby zeronumber » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:50 am

Cappy wrote:
gary2381 wrote:Curious how the part ended with Audrey looking into a mirror. It made me think of the first episode of season two where Shelly visits Leo. Leo is in a coma but they have a mirror up close just a few inches from his face.


That's a good observation, and a very creepy shot of Leo. The Audrey scene also reminded me of the first scene of Twin Peaks (Josie looking in a mirror), and the final scene of Twin Peaks (Coop smashing his head into the mirror and laughing). Grappling with and coming to terms with one's reflection (or true self) was a major theme of the initial series, and it continues to be a theme in the new series as well.

Mirrors abound.

In a previous episode with Audrey and Charlie we see a phenomenal shot of Audrey in a Mirror, that seems off kilter or hyper-real.

See also that wild shot of Richard in the door of Miriam's trailer.

(Lest we mention Ed...eating soup!)

And Coops headsmash!

Lelands "Bob" reveal..

And bad Coopers "Bob" check in prison.

....

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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:41 am

writersblock wrote:I keep thinking about all the glaring errors that were in TSHOTP - stuff that there was no way they could have gotten wrong on account of reviewing the first two seasons... it feels to me like there aren't any mistakes here.


In his interview with Brad Dukes, Mark said they only rewatched Episode 29 before writing the new show; I believe DKL also said this at some point. Mark did tell GQ that he "revisited" the original show "more extensively" before writing the book (i.e., watched something besides Episode 29), but that's a pretty vague statement. There's no evidence that they did a full "review" of the original show.
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