Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

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Esselgee
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Esselgee » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:03 am

Maybe someone else brought this up, but the shot of the empty chair in Cooper's hospital room seemed to have the same composition as in FWWM when Jeffries disappears and his empty chair is shown.
dkenny78
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby dkenny78 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:09 am

Stray observation here, but I'm wondering if the twist ending of this Part (Audrey in some sort of dream/hospital/sanitarium) is the main reason that the 'Secret Lives of Twin Peaks' was rejiggered into two books, with only the second one detailing what happens in between series. Certainly, any reference to the fact that Audrey's recovery from the bank of explosion might have had some complications would have raised some eyebrows when we see her in S3.
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ScarFace32
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby ScarFace32 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:35 pm

djsunyc wrote:
thedarktrees wrote:A minor point, but wondering what people think about this: WHY would Cooper say that he knows that the Mitchum bros have hearts of gold???

As much as I thought the Mitchum brothers were amazing character in this season, how could Coop of all people come to think they have hearts of gold? I mean they viciously beat one of their employees while firing him when they lost money on the jackpots. I'm not sure they've done a whole lot to redeem themselves since then. Even their care and concern for Dougie is only because they cashed in with a $30M insurance claim because of him. Not so gold-hearted there either.

Maybe the bar is low after being in the Black Lodge for 25 years. I don't know.


i think b/c they bought sonny jim the gym set.


I feel like he's going to arrest them at some point. Cooper doesn't seem like he would overlook their crimes because they bought him new cars and a gym set. He is the FBI. But maybe Cooper's experiences in the Lodge have changed his perception of what's important
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby yaxomoxay » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:37 pm

ScarFace32 wrote:
djsunyc wrote:
thedarktrees wrote:A minor point, but wondering what people think about this: WHY would Cooper say that he knows that the Mitchum bros have hearts of gold???

As much as I thought the Mitchum brothers were amazing character in this season, how could Coop of all people come to think they have hearts of gold? I mean they viciously beat one of their employees while firing him when they lost money on the jackpots. I'm not sure they've done a whole lot to redeem themselves since then. Even their care and concern for Dougie is only because they cashed in with a $30M insurance claim because of him. Not so gold-hearted there either.

Maybe the bar is low after being in the Black Lodge for 25 years. I don't know.


i think b/c they bought sonny jim the gym set.


I feel like he's going to arrest them at some point. Cooper doesn't seem like he would overlook their crimes because they bought him new cars and a gym set. He is the FBI. But maybe Cooper's experiences in the Lodge have changed his perception of what's important


Other than the beating of the casino manager, we're not aware of any crime committed by them.


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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby ScarFace32 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:48 pm

yaxomoxay wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:
djsunyc wrote:
i think b/c they bought sonny jim the gym set.


I feel like he's going to arrest them at some point. Cooper doesn't seem like he would overlook their crimes because they bought him new cars and a gym set. He is the FBI. But maybe Cooper's experiences in the Lodge have changed his perception of what's important


Other than the beating of the casino manager, we're not aware of any crime committed by them.


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I thought they are involved with insurance fraud and shit? They were also just about to kill Cooper before he gave them the check
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Re: RE: Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Rik Renault » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:58 pm

ScarFace32 wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:
I feel like he's going to arrest them at some point. Cooper doesn't seem like he would overlook their crimes because they bought him new cars and a gym set. He is the FBI. But maybe Cooper's experiences in the Lodge have changed his perception of what's important


Other than the beating of the casino manager, we're not aware of any crime committed by them.


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I thought they are involved with insurance fraud and shit? They were also just about to kill Cooper before he gave them the check
Bradley was 'itching' to kill Coop, so it's not much of a leap to imagine they are no strangers to murder. We only know that Duncan Todd commits insurance fraud for sure (the Mitchums are 1-0 to the good for all we know), but he is their 'rival'. I think we can assume he is their rival in their extralegal affairs, though, as opposed to a legitimate business rival so I don't doubt that they dabble in that mess.

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ScarFace32
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Re: RE: Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby ScarFace32 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:02 pm

Rik Renault wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:
Other than the beating of the casino manager, we're not aware of any crime committed by them.


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I thought they are involved with insurance fraud and shit? They were also just about to kill Cooper before he gave them the check
Bradley was 'itching' to kill Coop, so it's not much of a leap to imagine they are no strangers to murder. We only know that Duncan Todd commits insurance fraud for sure (the Mitchums are 1-0 to the good for all we know), but he is their 'rival'. I think we can assume he is their rival in their extralegal affairs, though, as opposed to a legitimate business rival so I don't doubt that they dabble in that mess.

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What was the check they got for? Insurance for a building that burned down? Arson right but what is because Duncan Todd had the place burned down or did the Mitchum brothers do it themselves? I hate Jim Belushi
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ScarFace32
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby ScarFace32 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:09 pm

I'm still reading this thread but did Diane say that the Convenience Store (Gas station in her words) was next to the Sheriff's station? Does that mean the convenience store is right in Twin Peaks next to the sheriff's station? Are they going to have a shot of the sheriff's station and pan out and the Convience Store is right there lol?

Also the CGI with Diane was beyond bad. It was like something from a cellphone App.
Last edited by ScarFace32 on Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rik Renault
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Rik Renault » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:09 pm

ScarFace32 wrote:
Rik Renault wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:
I thought they are involved with insurance fraud and shit? They were also just about to kill Cooper before he gave them the check
Bradley was 'itching' to kill Coop, so it's not much of a leap to imagine they are no strangers to murder. We only know that Duncan Todd commits insurance fraud for sure (the Mitchums are 1-0 to the good for all we know), but he is their 'rival'. I think we can assume he is their rival in their extralegal affairs, though, as opposed to a legitimate business rival so I don't doubt that they dabble in that mess.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


What was the check they got for? Insurance for a building that burned down? Arson right but what is because Duncan Todd had the place burned down or did the Mitchum brothers do it themselves? I hate Jim Belushi
No they got the cheque because it was NOT arson and was a legitimate claim IIRC. Todd's operation involved Tony planted as a mole in Lucky 7 Insurance, though I'm not sure (or it isn't clear) how Todd benefits from this in the cases that don't involve his rivals the Mitchums, though it is clear it's systematic. Maybe he jusg has a lot of rivals.

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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:11 pm

ScarFace32 wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:
I feel like he's going to arrest them at some point. Cooper doesn't seem like he would overlook their crimes because they bought him new cars and a gym set. He is the FBI. But maybe Cooper's experiences in the Lodge have changed his perception of what's important


Other than the beating of the casino manager, we're not aware of any crime committed by them.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I thought they are involved with insurance fraud and shit? They were also just about to kill Cooper before he gave them the check


Actually, they were innocent of insurance fraud. Todd set it up so that the claim was denied as an arson, that was the fraud. He wanted to cost them money because they're business rivals. The hotel burning down was accidental, though, and that's what Coop found.

They were preparing to kill him, and they did call out a hit on Ike. On the other hand, they aren't inherently brutal and dominant men. You can see from how they interact with Candie, even if you don't buy Amy Shields backstory, they have a worker who screws up regularly and doesn't pay attention but they don't want to fire her b/c they know she has no other means of support. They aren't disproportionately angry at the TV controller.

They were angry at the manager, but they were sure he'd cheated them and honestly... 30 jackpots. They stopped short of killing him, though, and just told him to leave town.

These guys weren't angels. However, it doesn't look like they had murder in their hearts. And when they did get their "Come to the Fireman" moment, they made the right choice. They chose to follow Bradley's dream. I suspect that now that they've made this choice they'll be okay as long as they don't slide back into corrupt, violent behavior. Basically, these guys could have gone either way and they were redeemed when they made the right choice. If they continue to act as agents of the White Lodge, they will continue to encounter fortune.

Why do they get a redemption arc and not the Warden, Mr. Todd, Jack, Darya, Ray...etc..? Because they ran into Coop and not the Doppelganger. Not sure how much of that is fate and how much is chance, but the message is clear. From the Doppelganger and BOB spread misery and destruction, innocents are corrupted and soon destroyed. But the White Lodge and its agents, such as Cooper, can offer a way out if you embrace the opportunity, even if you've got a checkered past.

Now, I'm not an expert on Karma and I know it's been mangled in pop culture but I suspect this is that principle. Performing good acts can make up for having performed bad acts in the past. Richard never took a moment to turn around and perform a good act, it was bad all the way down. The Warden had done good in the past, but when he was threatened by Doppelcoop he shrank away and even the mitigation of tracing the car and calling Cole didn't make up for the damage of letting that evil out of prison. Mr. Todd let fear turn him into a tool of evil. Ray worked against the Doppelganger, but did so by performing bad acts. So did Darya and Jack. Chantel couldn't even bring herself to move her car out of someone's way.

The Mitchems have a history of bad acts, but also some good acts. Since they chose to follow the dream and interact with Cooper, they have done NOTHING but good acts. They have been generous and joyous. Coming into wealth compelled them to SPREAD it to those around them. They showered Dougie and Bushnell with gifts. When Coop was in a coma, they arrived with food and good will for the family, even going to the house to fill it with food. They are racking up good karma left and right, and now they are flying a direct agent of the Fireman to Twin Peaks to participate in the coming conflict, and they'll be helping with it. It looks like what they are doing is enough to wipe away what they've done.

Considering the black smoke before the golden seed appears when the tulpas disappear, that may be the sins burning away until all that's left is the seed of gold, the potential for goodness. When Cooper says they have hearts of gold, he probably means the Mitchems have cleared away enough of their sin now to see the gold inside.
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yaxomoxay
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Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby yaxomoxay » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:43 pm

Ragnell wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:
Other than the beating of the casino manager, we're not aware of any crime committed by them.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I thought they are involved with insurance fraud and shit? They were also just about to kill Cooper before he gave them the check


Actually, they were innocent of insurance fraud. Todd set it up so that the claim was denied as an arson, that was the fraud. He wanted to cost them money because they're business rivals. The hotel burning down was accidental, though, and that's what Coop found.

They were preparing to kill him, and they did call out a hit on Ike. On the other hand, they aren't inherently brutal and dominant men. You can see from how they interact with Candie, even if you don't buy Amy Shields backstory, they have a worker who screws up regularly and doesn't pay attention but they don't want to fire her b/c they know she has no other means of support. They aren't disproportionately angry at the TV controller.

They were angry at the manager, but they were sure he'd cheated them and honestly... 30 jackpots. They stopped short of killing him, though, and just told him to leave town.

These guys weren't angels. However, it doesn't look like they had murder in their hearts. And when they did get their "Come to the Fireman" moment, they made the right choice. They chose to follow Bradley's dream. I suspect that now that they've made this choice they'll be okay as long as they don't slide back into corrupt, violent behavior. Basically, these guys could have gone either way and they were redeemed when they made the right choice. If they continue to act as agents of the White Lodge, they will continue to encounter fortune.

Why do they get a redemption arc and not the Warden, Mr. Todd, Jack, Darya, Ray...etc..? Because they ran into Coop and not the Doppelganger. Not sure how much of that is fate and how much is chance, but the message is clear. From the Doppelganger and BOB spread misery and destruction, innocents are corrupted and soon destroyed. But the White Lodge and its agents, such as Cooper, can offer a way out if you embrace the opportunity, even if you've got a checkered past.

Now, I'm not an expert on Karma and I know it's been mangled in pop culture but I suspect this is that principle. Performing good acts can make up for having performed bad acts in the past. Richard never took a moment to turn around and perform a good act, it was bad all the way down. The Warden had done good in the past, but when he was threatened by Doppelcoop he shrank away and even the mitigation of tracing the car and calling Cole didn't make up for the damage of letting that evil out of prison. Mr. Todd let fear turn him into a tool of evil. Ray worked against the Doppelganger, but did so by performing bad acts. So did Darya and Jack. Chantel couldn't even bring herself to move her car out of someone's way.

The Mitchems have a history of bad acts, but also some good acts. Since they chose to follow the dream and interact with Cooper, they have done NOTHING but good acts. They have been generous and joyous. Coming into wealth compelled them to SPREAD it to those around them. They showered Dougie and Bushnell with gifts. When Coop was in a coma, they arrived with food and good will for the family, even going to the house to fill it with food. They are racking up good karma left and right, and now they are flying a direct agent of the Fireman to Twin Peaks to participate in the coming conflict, and they'll be helping with it. It looks like what they are doing is enough to wipe away what they've done.

Considering the black smoke before the golden seed appears when the tulpas disappear, that may be the sins burning away until all that's left is the seed of gold, the potential for goodness. When Cooper says they have hearts of gold, he probably means the Mitchems have cleared away enough of their sin now to see the gold inside.


Perfectly stated! Also don't forget where they grew up, and the fact that they never had parents.
My feeling is that they mostly "played the part" in Vegas, that is they faked it until they made it in Vegas and beating a guy that they are sure cheated them of $500K is a small price all things considered.
I don't think they ever murdered anyone, what they wanted to do to Dougie seems more out of rage and impulsivity rarher than experience (there was even a witness that THEY involved), and the job on Ike was probably in self defense as they knew that Todd wanted them dead.


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Jasper
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Jasper » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:55 pm

Rik Renault wrote:I still find it weird that Cole seemed to 'forget' about that day Jeffries came in to the Philadelphia office until his dream, as did Albert. It's almost as if Jeffries has been willed into existence by the Blue Rose taskforce.


I don't think that it's ever suggested that Cole forgot about the Jeffries visit. Cole says “And that was the day Phillip Jeffries appeared…and didn’t appear.” He seems to assume that Albert (at least) knows of what he’s speaking. He calmly goes over the event, and it’s only when he gets to the part where Jeffries points at Coop and says “Who do you think that is there?” that Gordon says “Damn, I hadn’t remembered that!”

Cole had only forgotten the part where Jeffries pointed at Coop and spoke those words.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:52 pm

yaxomoxay wrote:Perfectly stated! Also don't forget where they grew up, and the fact that they never had parents.
My feeling is that they mostly "played the part" in Vegas, that is they faked it until they made it in Vegas and beating a guy that they are sure cheated them of $500K is a small price all things considered.
I don't think they ever murdered anyone, what they wanted to do to Dougie seems more out of rage and impulsivity rarher than experience (there was even a witness that THEY involved), and the job on Ike was probably in self defense as they knew that Todd wanted them dead.


That's a great point about the limo driver. He struck me as a decent, sweet guy who really liked DougieCoop. Their having him bring them to the murder scene was pretty inept.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby ScarFace32 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:02 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:Perfectly stated! Also don't forget where they grew up, and the fact that they never had parents.
My feeling is that they mostly "played the part" in Vegas, that is they faked it until they made it in Vegas and beating a guy that they are sure cheated them of $500K is a small price all things considered.
I don't think they ever murdered anyone, what they wanted to do to Dougie seems more out of rage and impulsivity rarher than experience (there was even a witness that THEY involved), and the job on Ike was probably in self defense as they knew that Todd wanted them dead.


That's a great point about the limo driver. He struck me as a decent, sweet guy who really liked DougieCoop. Their having him bring them to the murder scene was pretty inept.


Could be or they are gangsters, bosses of a crime ring and that limo driver is a loyal soldier in their organization. I mean as soon as they saw FBI agents they ran but I don't know they seemed OK with Coop being FBI
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby ryanmj1993 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:11 pm

I'm not ready for this to end. This season has been fun,exciting,interesting,mind blowing, and furustrating all in one. I'm so glad I can say that I was alive for this round of Twin Peaks. I'm almost 100% certain that Twin Peaks is officially done which is really disappointing. It most definitely wasn't perfect but it was one hell of a ride. Thanks Mark and David. Really hope we might get more though.

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