Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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Ross
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Ross » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:14 pm

I think some of the effects are absolutely awful. But I certainly believe they are exactly what Lynch wanted. Just because they are intentional, doesn't mean I like them all.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Jasper » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:15 pm

Here are three pieces by Lynch in his "Woman Thinking" series. Much like the tulpa Diane scene in part 16, we have the faces torn off like paper, the curtains in the background, and of course the floating orb(s):

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A couple from Lynch's "Heads" series, reminiscent of Sarah Palmer's face removal:

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Lynch in March 2016, while filming Twin Peaks: The Return: "YAY! BERNIE SANDERS FOR PRESIDENT!!!"
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David Locke
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Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby David Locke » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:17 pm

Although speculation, it's hardly a stretch to assume a good chunk of the budget was spent on Part 8. It's quite obvious how much more time, thought, and money went into 8 than any other single Part.

The more primitive looking VFX throughout are absolutely intentional, though. Personally I mostly like them - they have a homemade, personal quality and an uncanny feeling that arises from that very lack of "polish."

The only one I've been baffled at and didn't like at all was the Duncan Todd headshot. It looked cheap without also having any kind of power or Lynchian creepiness to it. I don't see the purpose that specific look served and I'm not sure why Lynch wouldn't do something closer to the Deer Meadow cop getting shot, or countless other similar examples throughout Lynch's filmography where you see a headshot or something similarly gruesome and it's stylized but also feels fairly "real."

Also, as long as we're on this subject I'd like to say I've always found Laura opening her face to be a very eerie, fascinating moment/effect. Not sure why it's been divisive. Sarah's similar bit wasn't quite as successful for me, though there's several things about that whole scene that I find questionable anyway.


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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby ScarFace32 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:18 pm

Wonderful & Strange wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:
Elric99 wrote:
If you watch the credits this season, only one visual effects house has done the effects in every part: BUF. So the same guys that did the super realistic atom bomb test and frog-bug also did the tulpa effects. So it isn't about cost or the quality of the effects house doing the work, it clearly is done in a particular style on purpose.


That's true and it does seem intentional but they also could have spent a lot of the fx budget on part 8 don't you think?


Or they could have done everything they did intentionally, don't you think?

You have to understand that David Lynch is not a realist. His aesthetic interests are all about challenging realist representation. That's what surrealism, expressionism, Dada, and absurdism are all about.

EDIT: When people resort to speculation about budgets, I begin waiting to see if they have anything to support the idea. Or is it just pure speculation?


Yea I mean I've said this over and over I'm not talking about realism. According to David Lynch the argument with Showtime was about budget wasn't it?
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby docLEXfisti » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:28 pm

I too feel some effects look magnificent and some look cheesy-weird. It might have been intentional or due to the budget, but I think it's not stringent for the look of the series. It might be stringent if you look at it as work of David Lynch, working his paintings into the movie.

Awesome effects:
.) Richard Horne's electrocution
.) William Hastings death
.) EP 8 Atom Bomb, Moth-Frog
.) Vortex scenes

not so awesome effects:
.) SFX when Cooper slaps Ike the Spike
.) stopping Car SFX when car is clearly standing still (EP16)
.) Laura removing her face
.) Sarah removing her face
.) Dougie geting seeded
.) Diane getting seeded (although the mouth cracking at the beginning was awesome)
.) Death of Duncan Todd
.) 2D Orbs
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby SpookyDollhouse » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:33 pm

ScarFace32 wrote:
SpookyDollhouse wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:
That's true and it does seem intentional but they also could have spent a lot of the fx budget on part 8 don't you think?


No, episode 8 looks how they wanted it to look. Also, in arguing about episode 8, you're discreetly parroting the "CGI gotta be convincingly real/unreal or it's bad" thing I've been pokin on about. But ok.


I like the head crushing....was that cgi? How is me arguing that episode 8 may have used up a lot of the budget saying cgi has to look real?


Because you're comparing episode 8's traditionally "convincing" CGI vs what's obviously ridiculous looking by intention.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Ross » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:37 pm

Worst effects in the whole series is the death of Todd and Roger. At least other effects have a sort of Lynchian art look. But this scene was inexplicable.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby David Locke » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:55 pm

Ross wrote:Worst effects in the whole series is the death of Todd and Roger. At least other effects have a sort of Lynchian art look. But this scene was inexplicable.

Exactly! It looked cheaply done but not in the interesting and artful way the other effects have been. Not sure why it was done like that and it kind of ruins that scene for me.


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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:00 am

Wonderful & Strange wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:
Elric99 wrote:
If you watch the credits this season, only one visual effects house has done the effects in every part: BUF. So the same guys that did the super realistic atom bomb test and frog-bug also did the tulpa effects. So it isn't about cost or the quality of the effects house doing the work, it clearly is done in a particular style on purpose.


That's true and it does seem intentional but they also could have spent a lot of the fx budget on part 8 don't you think?


Or they could have done everything they did intentionally, don't you think?

You have to understand that David Lynch is not a realist. His aesthetic interests are all about challenging realist representation. That's what surrealism, expressionism, Dada, and absurdism are all about.

EDIT: When people resort to speculation about budgets, I begin waiting to see if they have anything to support the idea. Or is it just pure speculation?



Well, we do know Lynch actually quit when he felt Showtime wasn't ponying up a sufficient budget and had to be talked into coming back. So, people are not just dreaming the low budget idea entirely out of their heads.

I tend to weigh in on the side of those finding some of effects sequences unsatisfying. My thought has been up to now that some scenes definitely didn't have the amazing forethought and careful planning of Ep 8. So, if that puts me in the 'MUH BUDGET" camp, go ahead and yell at me, "MUH BUDGET" guy. The idea that Lynch and Frost didn't uber-plan every element of the show to the nth degree, and the idea that maybe every microsecond we've seen didn't come out exactly as they intended one hundred per cent of the time seems to make some people on here very, very angry and condescending.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Wonderful & Strange » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:46 am

Ross wrote:I think some of the effects are absolutely awful. But I certainly believe they are exactly what Lynch wanted. Just because they are intentional, doesn't mean that I am supposed to like them.


Fixed.

Fans can't seem to understand that art isn't always trying, or ever trying, to produce enjoyment in the audience.

There are many other effects artists try to produce in people, especially members of the avant garde. Estrangement, disturbance, dislocation.

It always makes me chuckle when fans assume Lynch wants you to enjoy everything like a piece of pie. It's not really about creating a commodity. At least not an easily consumable commodity.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Wonderful & Strange » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:52 am

ScarFace32 wrote:
Wonderful & Strange wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:
That's true and it does seem intentional but they also could have spent a lot of the fx budget on part 8 don't you think?


Or they could have done everything they did intentionally, don't you think?

You have to understand that David Lynch is not a realist. His aesthetic interests are all about challenging realist representation. That's what surrealism, expressionism, Dada, and absurdism are all about.

EDIT: When people resort to speculation about budgets, I begin waiting to see if they have anything to support the idea. Or is it just pure speculation?


Yea I mean I've said this over and over I'm not talking about realism. According to David Lynch the argument with Showtime was about budget wasn't it?


You don't realize that you are talking about realism. You don't want effects that look "cheesy." Lynch and the avant garde in general value effects that look cheesy because what we consider to be "cheesy" in our culture has everything to do with realist assumptions about what looks accurate and believable.

When you say you like good-looking surrealism, you're saying that you like believable surrealism. But real surrealism doesn't value passing itself off as believable. So what you really like are weird effects packed up in a realistic commodity package, probably like we find in a big budget movie.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Wonderful & Strange » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:59 am

sewhite2000 wrote:
Wonderful & Strange wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:
That's true and it does seem intentional but they also could have spent a lot of the fx budget on part 8 don't you think?


Or they could have done everything they did intentionally, don't you think?

You have to understand that David Lynch is not a realist. His aesthetic interests are all about challenging realist representation. That's what surrealism, expressionism, Dada, and absurdism are all about.

EDIT: When people resort to speculation about budgets, I begin waiting to see if they have anything to support the idea. Or is it just pure speculation?



Well, we do know Lynch actually quit when he felt Showtime wasn't ponying up a sufficient budget and had to be talked into coming back. So, people are not just dreaming the low budget idea entirely out of their heads.

I tend to weigh in on the side of those finding some of effects sequences unsatisfying. My thought has been up to now that some scenes definitely didn't have the amazing forethought and careful planning of Ep 8. So, if that puts me in the 'MUH BUDGET" camp, go ahead and yell at me, "MUH BUDGET" guy. The idea that Lynch and Frost didn't uber-plan every element of the show to the nth degree, and the idea that maybe every microsecond we've seen didn't come out exactly as they intended one hundred per cent of the time seems to make some people on here very, very angry and condescending.



I find it condescending when people keep making factual claims about choosing to cheap out on certain effects when they have zero evidence to support it.

Even when people post images of Lynch's art that looks exactly like what people are complaining about from the show.

You would be less angry and condescending if you would consider accepting that Lynch really did make these Lodge effects as he wanted -- it's only his entire body of work that supports this. You know, actual evidence, not fantasy.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:02 am

You did read my statement about Lynch quitting over the budget, didn't you?

I didn't say any of the things you claim I'm saying. I just said I found some of the effects unsatisfying compared to how great Ep 8 was. Try reading my post again.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby dustoff » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:10 am

The Gazebo wrote:I don't really care if the effects are 'shitty' - I find myself more concerned with the overall (lack of) suspense of disbelief. No problems with Laura's face suddenly smeared on to Donna's in season 1 (as rubbish as it seems in retrospect), but Sarah removing her face destroyed what was building towards an incredibly creepy scene.


You may think that the creepiness of this scene was "destroyed" by the relative simplicity of the effect. Other gumballs might thnk it looks "cheap" or "shitty." I happen to think this is one of the creepiest sequences in the history of television, much less Twin Peaks. To each his own.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:15 am

Yeah, I loved this, too. The pulling off of the face was a little like the Cars video, but what was under the face creeped the hell out of me!

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