Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

[dustoff]

Please dude those special effects looked so shitty. Nobody said "CGI must equal realism". CGI fucking sucks, but that was just so awful and stupid and cheap

if you are talking about the FX when the Dougie and Diane 'tulpas' were converted into gold balls (' you have been manufactured...') I very much liked the way this was done, making explicit that the person was a ' representation' and rendering them as 2D, with the graphic black smoke and simple animated ball, a great image I thought. I liked the shrinking Dougie ( ' that's weird') and i liked the Diane face being ripped like paper. I liked the clean graphic quality of the image, the way it moved from filmed footage to animated jpg. One person's ' awful and stupid and cheap' is another person's ' surrealist collage' I guess. But then I like John Stezaker.

Also worth noting that in ep 8 when the Laura Ball was sent to earth by the weird tube thing, that was also done via a 2D image, a flat black n white cinema screen, rather than a misguided attempt at 3D ' realism '. I like these moves between different modes of representation. Another one being in the pink world sequence in episode 3, when Naido goes up onto the roof of the obviously collaged box in space. The fact that this sequence, and the floating Briggs head, was 'awful and stupid and cheap' ( aka visually as simplified as possible) was, for me anyway, what lent it it's dreamlike fairy-tale quality, like an illustration out of a book.

Agreed, I like the effect.

[KyleRickards]

If I had to guess, I'd say it's the difference between regular people like Ray, who only end up in the Red Room if they're wearing the ring when they're killed, and those associated with the lodge, like Dougie or 'Diane'.

I went with associated because Leland (presumably) was a regular person, however it doesn't explain why Mr C would need to be wearing the ring.

If Mr. C needs to be wearing the ring in order to return to The Red Room, does that mean that he's completely human -- a 100% Dale Duplicate?

Interesting one, Dougie had the ring and it appears he wasn't 'real' for want of a better term.


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[BGate]

I hate to be harsh, but what?

She did not say that, it does not mean that, and man, it was NOT "bad Cgi" it was exactly what Lynch wanted. Do you have a better video of what REALLY happens when a tulpa breaks down to seed? Its not meant to be realistic. Its art. It looks exactly like Lynch wanted it to.

Yeah, I actually thought the tulpa-deseeding process looked very Terry Gilliam-esque, and was apropos. Now, the real world Duncan Todd headshot is another story -- I much prefer the practical effects of something like Bobby shooting the guy in the head in the woods in FWWM, but given that it was not a close-up, so be it... (but still thought it looked unintentionally cheesy -- it's not like they had a Microsoft Paint burst of red appear when Mr. C shot Ray).

You realize you are literally proving the other side's point with these posts, right?

[Soolsma]

Cooper does not at all seem bummed he lost 25 years of his life.

[Cooperscoffeecup]

Cooper does not at all seem bummed he lost 25 years of his life.

he picked up the workings of the smart phone pretty quickly

[writersblock]

I keep thinking about all the glaring errors that were in TSHOTP - stuff that there was no way they could have gotten wrong on account of reviewing the first two seasons... it feels to me like there aren't any mistakes here.

So do you think that a clever means of concealing the bigger picture has given us occasion to initially see these as inconsistencies, and only to retrospectively recognize how they fit in as missing pieces of the whole?

Ask me again on Monday

[writersblock]

I keep thinking about all the glaring errors that were in TSHOTP - stuff that there was no way they could have gotten wrong on account of reviewing the first two seasons... it feels to me like there aren't any mistakes here.

I recall an interview where Frost basically stated they did NOT go back and re-watch the series. Maybe just the pilot and ep 29... With only 2 episodes left, I would be shocked if they are able to account for all of the major discrepencies from that book, it is what it is. And Miriam's last name on the envelope was confirmed to be a prop error, so mistakes are happening (see also Rodney Mitchum changing the $$$ amount that Mr. Jackpots had swindled them out of at the casino from one episode to the next). To be expected with a production this large -- and consider that for the latter case, all they had to do was refer to the previous shooting script and confirm the #, and they blew that somehow.

The original series was full of continuity errors and other mistakes, it really had never been as meticulously pieced together as some people seen to think, so I'm not sure why (some) people seem convinced that all the cock-ups this time around are intentional.

There will always be inconsistencies in a show, especially one with multiple writers and directors. But this one has been so tightly reigned in in terms of control down to a couple of individuals and the "errors" so glaring that I think I would lose a bit of respect for all the parties involved if they had just been shoddily missed in post production.

Especially since it is such a visual and audio intense story. We were told from the first moment to pay close attention.

[DeepBlueSeed]

Cooper does not at all seem bummed he lost 25 years of his life.

he picked up the workings of the smart phone pretty quickly

He's spent about a week lingering around in the back of Dougie brain. He's had time to process a lot of stuff - he's probably keen to address the doppelgänger problem.

I've just remembered that scene in the Red Room where he gets to see Mr C driving a car. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that he's been able to keep up to date with some of the things that have occurred in the real world.

[whoisalhedges]

People were thinking cherry pie or coffee would bring him back... but it was at the mention of "Gordon Cole" that "DougieCoop" became Dale Cooper again. Not whole, not yet - he needed something, that "spark," the equivalent of the "seed" but for a real person; and he knew where he could find it: in the electricity.

So why did Gordon's name do what these other pleasures could not? Well, because that's all they were. I think that's why they had the sex scene in part 10 - pleasures are nice, but they're not who we are. Coffee and pie are things Coop likes, but "Gordon Cole" reminds him of who he is. He is Colonel - er, I mean Special Agent Dale Cooper. He is the FBI.

[Cooperscoffeecup]

Cooper does not at all seem bummed he lost 25 years of his life.

he picked up the workings of the smart phone pretty quickly

He's spent about a week lingering around in the back of Dougie brain. He's had time to process a lot of stuff - he's probably keen to address the doppelgänger problem.

I've just remembered that scene in the Red Room where he gets to see Mr C driving a car. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that he's been able to keep up to date with some of the things that have occurred in the real world.

so very true. he was also quick to pick up that the Mitchums can get him to Twin Peaks. (Now that is something I completely missed in the spoiler thread if it had been mentioned. I cant recall any mention of Belushi in Snowqualmie, or the sight of Candie, Mandie and Sandie. Presuming they are seen in outside scenes. I would think the sight of the girls in costume would have raised a few questions. LOL)

[Rik Renault]

People were thinking cherry pie or coffee would bring him back... but it was at the mention of "Gordon Cole" that "DougieCoop" became Dale Cooper again. Not whole, not yet - he needed something, that "spark," the equivalent of the "seed" but for a real person; and he knew where he could find it: in the electricity.

So why did Gordon's name do what these other pleasures could not? Well, because that's all they were. I think that's why they had the sex scene in part 10 - pleasures are nice, but they're not who we are. Coffee and pie are things Coop likes, but "Gordon Cole" reminds him of who he is. He is Colonel - er, I mean Special Agent Dale Cooper. He is the FBI.

This is an interesting idea and also plays into the metatheory that many people have had. Saying the name of the dreamer caused him to stir and wake up.

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[writersblock]

If I had to guess, I'd say it's the difference between regular people like Ray, who only end up in the Red Room if they're wearing the ring when they're killed, and those associated with the lodge, like Dougie or 'Diane'.

I went with associated because Leland (presumably) was a regular person, however it doesn't explain why Mr C would need to be wearing the ring.

If Mr. C needs to be wearing the ring in order to return to The Red Room, does that mean that he's completely human -- a 100% Dale Duplicate?

My take is that they are aware he is a slippery customer and has found many ways to escape a return to... custody? I think wearing the ring is a failsafe that will guarantee he can't wriggle free

[whoisalhedges]

People were thinking cherry pie or coffee would bring him back... but it was at the mention of "Gordon Cole" that "DougieCoop" became Dale Cooper again. Not whole, not yet - he needed something, that "spark," the equivalent of the "seed" but for a real person; and he knew where he could find it: in the electricity.

So why did Gordon's name do what these other pleasures could not? Well, because that's all they were. I think that's why they had the sex scene in part 10 - pleasures are nice, but they're not who we are. Coffee and pie are things Coop likes, but "Gordon Cole" reminds him of who he is. He is Colonel - er, I mean Special Agent Dale Cooper. He is the FBI.

This is an interesting idea and also plays into the metatheory that many people have had. Saying the name of the dreamer caused him to stir and wake up.

Oh, I don't think it has anything to do with "the dreamer," I don't think that's where we're headed. Just that cherry pie is something Coop likes, but is also something millions of people like. It's a sensory pleasure. Gordon Cole is his boss and his friend. It's a personal connection to Dale Cooper the man.

[Audrey Horne]

Personally I feel like Coooer didn't lose twenty five years of his life. It was presented like he is even more highly enlightened, and knows everything he went through... Which I think is a great way to use it in the story... Not weeks of what is this cell phone thing, etc. he's now new and improved Coop.

[referendum]

Maybe I am reading the Dougie storyline differently to some other people here.

How i have been seeing it is - Dale Cooper was fully present and conscious but trapped in a sort of Limbo inside the residue of Dougie ( who was a trap set for him by Mr C ). So Dale Cooper has been aware of everything happening and taking note of it ( as Dale Cooper), but has not been able to express it or to ' get out' of Dougie's shell, has not been in control of the vehicle, as it were, so he has been stumbling around in this benign Dougie fog, acting stunned, unable to find the exit. So as soon as he finds a way out, he leaps out ' 100%' - there is no halfway state. Either he is still trapped, or he isn't - either he gets himself back, or he doesn't.

[ edit ]

Personally I feel like Coooer didn't lose twenty five years of his life. It was presented like he is even more lightly enlightened, and kniws everything he went through... Which I think is a great way to use it in the story... Not weeks of what is this cell phone thing, etc. he's now new and improved Coop.

- yes! agree with that ^^^^