Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

[TheGum]

Josie was leading a double life as well, you're onto something with the mirrors. They were used to hint at the concept of the double and at this point in the series they've gone full on, Cooper broke the mirror and all the doubles are loose in the world.

[cgs027]

If Richard's father was born in 1973, then he would be nearly 25 years his senior. That's one small detail about his arrest report that seems to "make sense" in light of what he said to Richard regarding their age difference. The report listed his birthdate as August 15, 1973.

It was regarded as a goof here on the forums, yet it's hard to imagine that we might recognize an error of that nature, while the entire production team would not. It's rather glaring, wouldn't you say? Why his birth date would be identical to William Hastings, and why it would differ from Dale's, though, is just about impossible for me to make sense of, if these are not errors.

I keep thinking about all the glaring errors that were in TSHOTP - stuff that there was no way they could have gotten wrong on account of reviewing the first two seasons... it feels to me like there aren't any mistakes here.

I recall an interview where Frost basically stated they did NOT go back and re-watch the series. Maybe just the pilot and ep 29... With only 2 episodes left, I would be shocked if they are able to account for all of the major discrepencies from that book, it is what it is. And Miriam's last name on the envelope was confirmed to be a prop error, so mistakes are happening (see also Rodney Mitchum changing the $$$ amount that Mr. Jackpots had swindled them out of at the casino from one episode to the next). To be expected with a production this large -- and consider that for the latter case, all they had to do was refer to the previous shooting script and confirm the #, and they blew that somehow.

[cgs027]

I'm sure this has been discussed a lot, but humor me as someone who only watched this episode once and didn't much like it. Mr. Cooper said that he received coordinates from three people. One would be Ray, whose coordinates obviously led to the rock. The other would be Jeffries, whose probably led to that as well. However, Diane hadn't yet relayed the coordinates from Ruth's arm, correct? Is this just lazy plotting (not unusual for this show), or am I missing something?

Pretty sure when Diane was tapping away at her phone mouthing the mnemonic device "Co - or - di - nates" that she sent him coordinates. Maybe not the same ones she sent him this episode, but ...

Agreed. With so much happening off screen in this series, not sure why people are hung up that we didn't explicitly see her hit the Send button here.

[Rik Renault]

With everyone going tulpa accusation mad I've created a poll so that we can decide once and for all (or at least until we find out any more actual evidence on Sunday) who really is a thoughtform.

POLL: Who will be revealed as a tulpa in parts 17/18?
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3788&p=106290#p106290

[sewhite2000]

I haven't yet processed all the implications how Diane/Tulpa-Diane seemed so real -- had a lover leaving the apartment in Philly when Albert & Gordon paid their visit -- reaction to seeing/ talking to Mr C was so real - - snarky with her retorts and checking her text messages with all the familiar casualness as well as concern as we learned what those messages were - - but I've reached processing-burnout-syndrome trying to apply any sensible analytical thought to tulpas. If they resist deconstructing I'm not the one to deconstruct their meaning.

Why shouldn't that all be the case? Dougie had a wife and son and had no idea as to his true nature.

If the Diane we saw was a copy, it still stands to reason that she might have inherited all of the original's memories and been oblivious as to her true nature until Mr. C started interacting with her.

Life for the tulpas is a bit tragic, as they're still essentially real people. Then again, they don't die, exactly; they just turn to gold, ready to be seeded again.

I am of the belief that tulpas inherently sense something hollow about their existence, even if they're unaware of their true nature, and they seek to fill that void or numb out unhappiness. Both tulpa Diane and Dougie Jones drank heavily, and both seemed to seek out relatively meaningless sexual encounters (Dougie and his escorts, Diane and the gentlemen who come to her apartment).

[writersblock]

I haven't yet processed all the implications how Diane/Tulpa-Diane seemed so real -- had a lover leaving the apartment in Philly when Albert & Gordon paid their visit -- reaction to seeing/ talking to Mr C was so real - - snarky with her retorts and checking her text messages with all the familiar casualness as well as concern as we learned what those messages were - - but I've reached processing-burnout-syndrome trying to apply any sensible analytical thought to tulpas. If they resist deconstructing I'm not the one to deconstruct their meaning.

Why shouldn't that all be the case? Dougie had a wife and son and had no idea as to his true nature.

If the Diane we saw was a copy, it still stands to reason that she might have inherited all of the original's memories and been oblivious as to her true nature until Mr. C started interacting with her.

Life for the tulpas is a bit tragic, as they're still essentially real people. Then again, they don't die, exactly; they just turn to gold, ready to be seeded again.

I am of the belief that tulpas inherently sense something hollow about their existence, even if they're unaware of their true nature, and they seek to fill that void or numb out unhappiness. Both tulpa Diane and Dougie Jones drank heavily, and both seemed to seek out relatively meaningless sexual encounters (Dougie and his escorts, Diane and the gentlemen who come to her apartment).

If that's the case and Cooper's plan is to give Janey-E one... that's a pretty shitty thing to do

[sewhite2000]

I'm going to assume Cooper would somehow know to create one that amazingly lacks that defect. Maybe if it is a direct tulpa of him it would be of stronger moral character.

[writersblock]

I'm going to assume Cooper would somehow know to create one that amazingly lacks that defect. Maybe if it is a direct tulpa of him it would be of stronger moral character.

Personally I think Naomi Watts would stop me seeking meaningless sexual encounters... let's not give Cooper all the credit here

[cgs027]

Why shouldn't that all be the case? Dougie had a wife and son and had no idea as to his true nature.

If the Diane we saw was a copy, it still stands to reason that she might have inherited all of the original's memories and been oblivious as to her true nature until Mr. C started interacting with her.

Life for the tulpas is a bit tragic, as they're still essentially real people. Then again, they don't die, exactly; they just turn to gold, ready to be seeded again.

I am of the belief that tulpas inherently sense something hollow about their existence, even if they're unaware of their true nature, and they seek to fill that void or numb out unhappiness. Both tulpa Diane and Dougie Jones drank heavily, and both seemed to seek out relatively meaningless sexual encounters (Dougie and his escorts, Diane and the gentlemen who come to her apartment).

If that's the case and Cooper's plan is to give Janey-E one... that's a pretty shitty thing to do

There is the very strong possibility that Cooper himself may go back to Janey-E and Sonny Jim, meanwhile having his tulpa basically replace him. I wouldn't be surprised if the conclusion of the series left this open ended... Of course, it could go in a completely different direction, too.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I am of the belief that tulpas inherently sense something hollow about their existence, even if they're unaware of their true nature, and they seek to fill that void or numb out unhappiness. Both tulpa Diane and Dougie Jones drank heavily, and both seemed to seek out relatively meaningless sexual encounters (Dougie and his escorts, Diane and the gentlemen who come to her apartment).

Dougie also had a pretty subdued reaction to being pulled into the Lodge and seeing his hand start to shrink. I'm wondering now if his "accident" ever really happened, or if that was just part of whatever backstory DoppelCooper created for him to account for the fact that he'd likely behave strangely at times.

[Wally Brando]

If Richard's father was born in 1973, then he would be nearly 25 years his senior. That's one small detail about his arrest report that seems to "make sense" in light of what he said to Richard regarding their age difference. The report listed his birthdate as August 15, 1973.

It was regarded as a goof here on the forums, yet it's hard to imagine that we might recognize an error of that nature, while the entire production team would not. It's rather glaring, wouldn't you say? Why his birth date would be identical to William Hastings, and why it would differ from Dale's, though, is just about impossible for me to make sense of, if these are not errors.

I keep thinking about all the glaring errors that were in TSHOTP - stuff that there was no way they could have gotten wrong on account of reviewing the first two seasons... it feels to me like there aren't any mistakes here.

I recall an interview where Frost basically stated they did NOT go back and re-watch the series. Maybe just the pilot and ep 29... With only 2 episodes left, I would be shocked if they are able to account for all of the major discrepencies from that book, it is what it is. And Miriam's last name on the envelope was confirmed to be a prop error, so mistakes are happening (see also Rodney Mitchum changing the $$$ amount that Mr. Jackpots had swindled them out of at the casino from one episode to the next). To be expected with a production this large -- and consider that for the latter case, all they had to do was refer to the previous shooting script and confirm the #, and they blew that somehow.

The original series was full of continuity errors and other mistakes, it really had never been as meticulously pieced together as some people seen to think, so I'm not sure why (some) people seem convinced that all the cock-ups this time around are intentional.

[TheGum]

Man, two good Coopers, going back to work and family and we have no idea which is the original...cool concept, literally a 180 from how the original series ended.

Unfortunately there is some really sinister shit we aren't placing enough emphasis on at work here. I feel like the fate of the world is at stake, somehow. And with all this talk about dreams, it's really making me super concerned for a lot of our favorite characters. James onstage at the roadhouse reeks of his own fantasies, ed and Norma, Nadine and her drapes, hell- Ben being a good man is a fantasy of his that I find really hard to imagine hm fulfilling...I think the last two hours are going to be mind blowing, sad, funny, terrifying and explosive

[FlyingSquirrel]

I'm going to assume Cooper would somehow know to create one that amazingly lacks that defect. Maybe if it is a direct tulpa of him it would be of stronger moral character.

And Diane's tulpa was presumably created right after she was raped by DoppelCooper, so she was likely traumatized at the time. The behavior of Dougie and the Diane-tulpa may be specific to the circumstances of their creation rather than characteristic of tulpas in general.

There is the very strong possibility that Cooper himself may go back to Janey-E and Sonny Jim, meanwhile having his tulpa basically replace him. I wouldn't be surprised if the conclusion of the series left this open ended... Of course, it could go in a completely different direction, too.

I don't think Cooper expects to see Janey-E and Sonny Jim again. My take is that either he plans to return to some semblance of his old life or he does not expect to survive whatever is about to happen, based on how he acted when saying goodbye to them. Whether he plans to resurrect Dougie as he was before being pulled into the Lodge or create a new Dougie, I'm not sure. There'd be a case to be made that resurrecting Dougie would actually be the right thing to do here - even if he was kind of a jerk at times, he was still a person who didn't deserve to die the way he did. Maybe if Dougie were brought back and learned the truth about his own creation, it would inspire him to be a better person from now on.

[wxray]

The original series was full of continuity errors and other mistakes, it really had never been as meticulously pieced together as some people seen to think, so I'm not sure why (some) people seem convinced that all the cock-ups this time around are intentional.

Yep. And we know DKL filmed all this and then went into a mega editing process. He has been firm that there were no pick-ups or re-shoots. Given the budget, and lack of re-shoots, crap is bound to happen. You can only do so many head replacements or whatever before you exhaust your options with digital manipulation too. A budget is a budget.

I'm trying to let them go as much as I can, but some are a bit distracting.

[Cappy]

I'm curious to see Cooper's reaction to the existence of Richard Horne. I wouldn't be surprised to see Coop use the "seed" to create a good Richard and give his (sorta) son a chance at a decent life, while Coop returns to Janey-E and Sonny Jim.

I mean I would rather Coop just retire to Twin Peaks and send a Dougie down to Las Vegas, but I don't know if Cooper has it in him to leave a family, even if it's only one he's known for a week. And I imagine him feeling a sense of responsibility for the Richard situation, and attempt to remedy it.

Who knows, maybe Coop will move his new family up to Twin Peaks?