Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

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dronerstone
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby dronerstone » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:01 am

BRILLIANT episode apart from my not bearing any love at all for those Audrey scenes.

Seems like Fenn is just playing herself and is stuck in the past, even signaled by the "vintage" interior seen in prior Audrey/Charlie scenes and then only reprising "Audrey's Dance" with everyone leaving the dance floor. Seemed to me as if Lynch agreed to giving her a part in the new season only to troll her by poking fun of people being too attached to the past. :)

Didn't like that any bit, but still wondering what's up with her running back to Charlie and suddenly ending up in front of a mirror w/o make-up and that electrical sound in the background.

I'm unsure if Lynch will wrap this arc, but feel it's kinda useless if he doesn't.

That said, I REALLY enjoyed the rest of the episode. Feels good having Cooper back, even more so after Lynch pretty much teasing us since TPTR had started. YESYESYESSSSS!!!!!!!!

Like I predicted, there's gonna be a big showdown between good/evil Coopers. I'm 100% sure James' friend Freddie and his green glove will be of GREAT help there.
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Ragnell
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:08 am

BigEd wrote:
Ragnell wrote:"I'm going to test this deathtrap on my son" is NOT mitigated by his son being a horrible person.


Of course it is! We all hate Richard. We're supposed to hate Richard. Richard ran over a little boy and tried to kill a nice lady who looked after small children. Richard terrorized his Grandmother and his disabled uncle. Richard terrorized a girl at the Roadhouse. We've all been hoping for weeks/months that Richard would get something like this. What am I missing?? :?:


Oh, I am thrilled to see Richard get killed.

I'm just impressed they did it in a way that makes the Doppelganger even more evil. That was cold, man. He knew that was his kid and he tested a booby trap on him. And they put that in this ep specifically to contrast Good Dale hugging Sonny Jim and assuring him he's really his father.

I am absolutely happy Richard got what was coming to him. But after last week's discussion in the Part 15 thread on whether the criminal nature of Doppelcoop's victims makes him less of a bad guy I need to clarify... No. He is absolutely still a Big Bad Guy clearing the field of all the little bad guys, including his own son.
Last edited by Ragnell on Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
sewhite2000
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:11 am

thedarktrees wrote:
ThumbsUp wrote:
thedarktrees wrote:

So maybe for all these years Cooper's tape recorder has really just been sending updates to the white lodge/mauve room. Tape recorder, magnetic tape, electrical energy. Who knows. Not sure why the Fireman would want to know what he ate for lunch everyday though.

In any case, makes at least as much sense as the surface understandings of things: that he records and somehow ships a loads of tapes to his secretary on a daily basis.


I think it'd just be cool symbolism that links back to Diane's original presentation on the show.

I'm very curious about that apparently first time Coop kissed Diane on the lips though.


Oh interesting symoblism for sure if things work out that way. I just think it's funny how utterly implausible and weird the whole Diane tape recorder things was back then. How really did they expect people to imagine that would work?

Isn't there some reference to Coop and Diane hooking it up in that book based on Cooper's tapes that came out way back in the day?


I haven't read the book, but a couple of people in the very early episode threads said that it strongly implied that Cooper and Diane had one night of bliss together not long before he left for Twin Peaks. Seemed out of character for Cooper to sleep with a co-worker who was his subordinate, but it makes some sense if you consider it happened at a time when he was grieving for Caroline and a concerned Diane was just trying to comfort him, and one thing led to another.

Anyway, I'm not sure there's been even one instance where Mark Frost's recent book (which I feel like I was sort of tricked into believing I absolutely had to read) has been confirmed or incorporated into the new season, so it seems unlikely Lynch would use a book written 25 years ago by Frost's BROTHER as source material! So, the kiss Diane referenced may have nothing at all to do with what that book suggests.
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Ragnell
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:14 am

sewhite2000 wrote:
RainingPostToasties wrote:I don't remember the last time a piece of televised entertainment made me say "Oh, shit," aloud as many times as tonight.

Cooper's return, Diane, Audrey, vaporized Richard, the botched hit. Every scene tonight was highly consequential.

I suppose Cooper doesn't plan on coming back since he's having another Dougie manufactured for Janey-E. Heartbreak!


Ooh, I hadn't thought of it that way.

I was already getting ready to fight people who were saying Cooper wanted to manufacture a tulpa to go live with Janey-E and Sunny Jim. After that touching scene in the casino, my thought was Cooper was planning to return himself after killing Evil Cooper and live out his days as Dougie. I don't know how plausible it would be to resume life as Dale Cooper, after Evil Coop has been putting his DNA and (admittedly, slightly different) fingerprints all over no doubt hundreds of crime scenes for 25 years. I doubt "I was trapped in another dimension while my doppleganger was commiting crimes" is going to go over with a jury, so ... if Cooper kills Evil Coop, lets the world think that is rogue FBI Special Agent Dale Cooper who's dead and then just go live as Dougie, that would be a beautiful ending to the series. A few people would now the truth: Gordon/Albert/Tammy, probably Truman and Hawk and maybe Bobby and Andy and Lucy, but they would all keep quiet about it. I hadn't really given much thought to why Cooper desperately wanted to create another tulpa.

But your theory, as much as it depresses me, does sound quite reasonable. Cooper expects to die and wants a duplicate to be there for Janey-E and Sunny Jim. The final shot, after we see Cooper's death, could be of tulpa Cooper walking through that red door. And while that would be ... sort of a happy ending? ... it's not the ending I want.


Its not necessarily the ending we'll get. But Cooper is wise, thoughtful and cautious. If he stands any risk of dying in the finale, whether he intends to return himself to Vegas or not, he will take the precaution to make sure that family is cared for. That is the kind of guy Dale Cooper is. He can promise he is coming back because he has ensured that one way or another, he is.
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nonemoreblack
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby nonemoreblack » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:26 am

Another thing that doesn't sit well with me about Cooper going back to Janey-E is that it strikes me as messed up that all the other women who fell for Cooper experienced extreme trauma and are just left to deal with it or met horrific ends while he gets a perfect happy ending. With the way women in The Return have been treated...it's kinda gross imo.
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Panapaok
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Panapaok » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:37 am

Coop is awake! 100%! "I AM the FBI!" :D

Wonderful episode all around, it set up the finale is such a satisfying way. Something BIG should happen at the Sheriff's Station. I guess that will be the point when I'm gonna miss Ontkean the most. :cry:

Loved the Diane revelation, great acting by Dern. Also, I'm so happy about Audrey's stuff, what a way to end this episode!

I have to say, as goofy (and kinda pointless) the whole sequence outside Dougie's house is, I abdolutely loved it. Hysterically over the top. From the FBI guys and the Mitchums, to the Polish accountant with the uzi and the Hutchenses' death, that was incredibly hilarious. :lol:

I don't think Richard is gone for good, I feel we'll see more of him somehow.

Oh, and Eddie Vedder's song was really great.
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N. Needleman
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:40 am

dronerstone wrote:Seems like Fenn is just playing herself and is stuck in the past, even signaled by the "vintage" interior seen in prior Audrey/Charlie scenes and then only reprising "Audrey's Dance" with everyone leaving the dance floor. Seemed to me as if Lynch agreed to giving her a part in the new season only to troll her by poking fun of people being too attached to the past. :)


I think there is absolutely no chance he would do that to her or any other series veteran.

Fans' feelings about Sherilyn Fenn and Audrey may be complicated by her social media behavior, but her relationship to Lynch - and most of all, Lynch's relationship with his overall ensemble - is very different.
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
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Panapaok
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Panapaok » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:41 am

nonemoreblack wrote:Another thing that doesn't sit well with me about Cooper going back to Janey-E is that it strikes me as messed up that all the other women who fell for Cooper experienced extreme trauma and are just left to deal with it or met horrific ends while he gets a perfect happy ending. With the way women in The Return have been treated...it's kinda gross imo.
He won't go back to Janey-E. He told MIKE to create another Dougie doppelganger, probably a much better than the previous one.
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BigEd
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby BigEd » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:42 am

Panapaok wrote:I have to say, as goofy (and kinda pointless) the whole sequence outside Dougie's house is, I abdolutely loved it. Hysterically over the top. From the FBI guys and the Mitchums, to the Polish accountant with the uzi and the Hutchenses' death, that was incredibly hilarious. :lol:

I don't think Richard is gone for good, I feel we'll see more of him somehow.



Agree 100% about scene outside house. It was yrev very funny!

I disagree about Richard. I think he is gone, Gone, GONE. No more time to waste on that low life. This is all about Coop from here on out.
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Ragnell
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:44 am

nonemoreblack wrote:Another thing that doesn't sit well with me about Cooper going back to Janey-E is that it strikes me as messed up that all the other women who fell for Cooper experienced extreme trauma and are just left to deal with it or met horrific ends while he gets a perfect happy ending. With the way women in The Return have been treated...it's kinda gross imo.


Well, this is why I only like him going with Janey-E over any of the other love interests. The Doppelganger has traumatized Audrey and Diane (probably killed her). Annie experienced the trauma of the Red Room and I hope she's now safe in a convent. They can heal, but not with a twin of their tormentor around. Audrey can still have a happy ending. Annie may have already healed.

Janey-E's life has gotten better with Dale around, though.

And as for Dale... he did spend 25 years in a cryptic hell dimension, doing nothing wrong to be put there. I'm good with him getting a perfect happy ending.

There are issues to be discussed about women in the Return. I've been putting off wading into the Gender thread myself, I want to let it set a bit and see how the big picture is and how Laura's story works out.

However, I don't think compounding Dale's trauma will somehow balance out the problems with gender in this. For one, I see a lot of arguments against heroic men getting married that are mired in a sexist view of women as a distraction from man's true potential and an ending where Dale ends up with Janey-E would counter those. It would also give us a female character who does fall for Dale, does win him, and isn't given extreme trauma as a result. Because viewing her as merely a prize for Dale discounts that Janey-E is one of those very women you describe, and having her treated well would do something to offset the very pattern you describe.
Last edited by Ragnell on Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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docLEXfisti
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby docLEXfisti » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:45 am

I am so blown away by this episode. I got way too emotional when Coop awoke...
sewhite2000
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:50 am

KHAN Games wrote:Anyone notice the continuity error from the text that DoppleCoop sent Diane? Two different time stamps between cuts, one from an iMessage and one from a Text Message. Haha. Probably not relevant.


Yes, I noticed and I immediately thought "Well, people will be posting that this has some incredible significance", but I wasn't going to tell anybody I thought they were wrong, because it would just make some people yell at me and tell me I'm a horrible person who obsessively needs to be proved right and who just wants to ruin everybody's fun.
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Panapaok
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Panapaok » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:51 am

I can't express how much I love the Mitchum bros. I love how L&F kinda subverted our expectations of typical gangsters in entertainment. After their first appearance in Part 5, everyone though that they would be a mix between Mr. Eddy and the Castigliani brothers but then they totally flipped them into this wonderful and funny pair. Hearts of gold indeed! (I'm only half kidding. :lol:)
This is - excuse me - a damn fine cup of coffee.
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Ragnell
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:09 am

On people doubting the Mitchem Bros having hearts of gold... Candie.

Its somewhat stereotypical, but we get a genuine soft spot with her. We learn that they did not actually burn down their hotel. We learn they came from an orphanage rather than money. We see then choose to listen to dream language.

A few of the villains in the Return are All The Way Evil: Doppelcoop, Chad, Richard. Others are more complex, people like Red, Diane, Mr. Todd, Phyllis, Tony, Hutch, Ike, Lorraine, Chantel and so on show a variety of motives and soft spots and capacity for love. That's to on remind us that there's more to evil than pure malice, there's rationalization and pressure and emotion and fear and CHOICE.

The running theme is that those who directly connected with Dale in Vegas got a choice to be good. Choosing good led to chances to do more good in their lives, no matter their past history.

We were introduced to the Mitchems as a threat. Then when we saw them with Candie, we saw less of a threat. Then when they got the choice--listen to the dream or kill this person you perceive as a threat mercilessly--they made the right choice and we knew by then they had the capacity for it.

And again, consider Doppelcoop. He kills nearly everyone he talks to, even his own son. Richard, who casually ran down a child in the street.

The Mitchems had have several chances to kill people, and the one time we saw violence they stopped far short of murder. It looks like they aren't really killers after all.
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nonemoreblack
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby nonemoreblack » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:15 am

Ragnell wrote:
nonemoreblack wrote:Another thing that doesn't sit well with me about Cooper going back to Janey-E is that it strikes me as messed up that all the other women who fell for Cooper experienced extreme trauma and are just left to deal with it or met horrific ends while he gets a perfect happy ending. With the way women in The Return have been treated...it's kinda gross imo.


Well, this is why I only like him going with Janey-E over any of the other love interests. The Doppelganger has traumatized Audrey and Diane (probably killed her). Annie experienced the trauma of the Red Room and I hope she's now safe in a convent. They can heal, but not with a twin of their tormentor around. Audrey can still have a happy ending. Annie may have already healed.

Janey-E's life has gotten better with Dale around, though.

And as for Dale... he did spend 25 years in a cryptic hell dimension, doing nothing wrong to be put there. I'm good with him getting a perfect happy ending.

There are issues to be discussed about women in the Return. I've been putting off wading into the Gender thread myself, I want to let it set a bit and see how the big picture is and how Laura's story works out.

However, I don't think compounding Dale's trauma will somehow balance out the problems with gender in this. For one, I see a lot of arguments against heroic men getting married that are mired in a sexist view of women as a distraction from man's true potential and an ending where Dale ends up with Janey-E would counter those. It would also give us a female character who does fall for Dale, does win him, and isn't given extreme trauma as a result. Because viewing her as merely a prize for Dale discounts that Janey-E is one of those very women you describe, and having her treated well would do something to offset the very pattern you describe.


It's not that I want Dale to have a tragic ending. I'd just rather he had a different kind of ending. I see what you're saying, but for me it would just feel like a slap in the face as someone who loved the fact that Audrey's life seemed to have an optimistic future, for her only to become part of that pattern. I have mixed feelings about her situation as it is. With Annie, we can only guess how she ended up, but nobody else in Twin Peaks has exactly had a great 25 years since that happened.
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