Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

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TheGum
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby TheGum » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:30 am

Troubbble wrote:
referendum wrote:
Dale was never trapped inside of Dougie at any point.

Any new knowledge he possesses comes from his quasi-prescient existence in the Black Lodge, and from his week spent "coming back to himself," while others mistook his identity.


I don't agree. I think he came back fully aware but unable to engage with the world pr properly take his place as Dale Cooper immediately. I think he was always 'himself' as Dougie, analysing and registering everything ( eg details like the snub nose /32 under the Mullins' left shoulder), but unable to properly articulate or co-ordinate, because of the dougie trap Mr C set, which was partially effective, in that it took him a while to find a way back into the world as fully functional.


I think the first part of what you're saying is more or less correct. Dale was unable to communicate and had the faculties of a newborn, but behind his eyes, everything was still intact--and he was capable of absorbing all the information around him.

As for the rest:

Dougie was a glorified mannequin who only existed on Earth to be sucked up into the Black Lodge in the Doppelganger's place, once his time came due. The idea that Dougie was a "trap" or that his creation someone caused Dale to be incapacitated once he returned is a misreading. It was coming back to reality after 25 years in the Lodge which reduced him to the state we've seen all along, nothing to do with Dougie Jones.


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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby cgs027 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:31 am

BGate wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:
cgs027 wrote:
Yeah, I actually thought the tulpa-deseeding process looked very Terry Gilliam-esque, and was apropos. Now, the real world Duncan Todd headshot is another story -- I much prefer the practical effects of something like Bobby shooting the guy in the head in the woods in FWWM, but given that it was not a close-up, so be it... (but still thought it looked unintentionally cheesy -- it's not like they had a Microsoft Paint burst of red appear when Mr. C shot Ray).




You realize you are literally proving the other side's point with these posts, right?


I assume you are talking to whomever posted the vid links? Like I said, I'm cool with the Monty Python-esque effects in the lodge scenes. I see no need for "realism" in that realm.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Troubbble » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:32 am

Nighthawk wrote:
referendum wrote:
Dale was never trapped inside of Dougie at any point.

Any new knowledge he possesses comes from his quasi-prescient existence in the Black Lodge, and from his week spent "coming back to himself," while others mistook his identity.


I don't agree. I think he came back fully aware but unable to engage with the world pr properly take his place as Dale Cooper immediately. I think he was always 'himself' as Dougie, analysing and registering everything ( eg details like the snub nose /32 under the Mullins' left shoulder), but unable to properly articulate or co-ordinate, because of the dougie trap Mr C set, which was partially effective, in that it took him a while to find a way back into the world as fully functional.

I am not sure there is a definitive reading here. I think it is something that different people explain to themselves in different ways, like viewing the same object from different angles. The object remains the same, the point of view or perception of it doesn't. We are both seeing/ saying the same thing, but in different ways. :)


It seems that Dale was consciously observing the world through Dougie's eyes, at the very least. Something of a locked-in syndrome where he was fully awake, but unable to control his body.


You guys are confusing things by referring to Cooper as being "trapped inside of Dougie" or "looking through Dougie's eyes."

There hasn't BEEN a Dougie since Part 3, when he was transported to the Black Lodge and rendered back into a seed. Dale took his place on Earth, in his own body, with his own mind. He just needed some time and some important sensory input to snap out of the state he was in.

Other than that, I think your general concept of him re-learning and remembering everything while trapped in a quasi "locked in" state is perfectly accurate.
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referendum
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:34 am

The idea that Dougie was a "trap" or that his creation someone caused Dale to be incapacitated once he returned is a misreading.


But Dougie was a trap - in ep 2 Bad Coop describes Dougie as a ' trick' I think, he created Dougie to prevent himself returning to the lodge but also - as corrolary - to prevent Cooper being able to return properly. So, Dougie was still an obstacle for Dale Coop after he disappeared, a dead end he had to get out of to get back fully to himself. And visibly this ' trick' incapacitated him - slowed him down - he was trapped not inside Dougie ( totally agree with you there) but inside Dougie's reality - family, job, home, etc - until he found a way round it ( the plug socket, triggered by the mention of ' the dreamer' - eg Gordon Cole).

I am not sure there is a ''misreading'' here. There are readings - interpretations - different ways different people explain the same thing they are seeing to themselves. We are all seeing the same thing, and the end destination is the same.

[ i got abit wrapped up in pronouns here, ' him' could refer to anyone of 3 people who are all the same person, so i hope i was clear] :roll:
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby whoisalhedges » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:40 am

I think most people here are bright enough to know Coop was never in Dougie's body - if the abs didn't give it away, then my god, just look at the hair. I don't think anyone's "misreading" so much as misstating: no, Cooper was never in Dougie's body. He was in Dougie's LIFE.

The whole "seeing through Dougie's eyes" I think was meant as a metaphor, I'm sure the poster knows they weren't literally Dougie Jones' physical eyes....
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:48 am

In my opinion, it was not so much to "prevent Cooper from being able to return properly" - Cooper being stuck in this dreamstate for so long might have made him easier to kill - but the whole point was to kill Cooper: his real, physical body. I don't really understand the physics (or metaphysics), and it probably won't ever really be explained, but the existence of Dougie somehow made Cooper trade places with Dougie instead of Evil Coop. And assassins were on their way to kill Dougie right at the moment of transfer. It's possible Evil Coop hired those assassins: that whole chain of command with Duncan Todd and so forth still kind of confuses me, and I haven't focused on it much. Regardless, whether he hired them or not, Evil Coop knew they were on their way. His plan was for Cooper to be back on Earth for about a minute and a half before they killed him, and if he was semi-incapacitated by the shock of his return to Earth, so much the better.

In just the last day or so, it occurred to me that Sunny Jim is half the product of a tulpa, which clearly is capable of mating with a human and producing offspring. Wonder if that makes Sunny Jim different in any way from other children, for better or for worse
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referendum
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:48 am

no, Cooper was never in Dougie's body. He was in Dougie's LIFE.


yeah, that is what i was trying to say, you said it better. THanks. So this is why Bad Coop's trick or trap was still partially effective, and why we had Dougie for 13 hours not Dale C. :)

What i was trying to get at is that, if there had been no Dougie ( to return to the lodge) then Dale and Bad Coop would simply have swapped places cleanly at 2:53 in ep 3, and that would have been that. Dale Cooper would have returned to his own life and not someone else's. The whole Las Vegas plotline only existed because Bad C made this trick or trap to protect himself and by default thwart Dale C. Effectively he has put Dale Cooper ' on ice ' until he could deal with the problem by killing him. So we had 13 hours of Limbo. Does that sound right to you people?

[ ps - just remembered that, as Dale C leaves the lodge and falls through space, the arm-tree screams NON-EX-IST-ENCE! That ( in retrospect) seems like a kind of warning ...]

[ edited for clarity. sorry, this stuff is complicated. And simple at the same time! Kind of...]
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Manwith
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Manwith » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:59 am

There was no "locked in" syndrom with Cooper. He was not "awake". When he "awakened 100%" he received memories of what he had been through with Dougie like remembering a dream. That's how I read it.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Troubbble » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:38 am

For the Doppelganger to intend that Dale be "trapped" in Dougie's life, he would have to be expecting Dale to come back out of the Black Lodge in the first place. Which he was not.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:45 am

For the Doppelganger to intend that Dale be "trapped" in Dougie's life, he would have to be expecting Dale to come back out of the Black Lodge in the first place. Which he was not.


yes he was ! that is why he created Dougie in 1997!
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby cgs027 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:46 am

Troubbble wrote:For the Doppelganger to intend that Dale be "trapped" in Dougie's life, he would have to be expecting Dale to come back out of the Black Lodge in the first place. Which he was not.


Disagree. If you watch that scene in the car, Mr. C is watching the clock on the dashboard intently, implying that he knew a swap was to take place at 2:53. I have to assume he also set the assassins in place to ensure that Coop gets taken out after Coop switches with Dougie, whom he manufactured to make the swap back into the lodge instead of himself.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby cgs027 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:51 am

referendum wrote:
For the Doppelganger to intend that Dale be "trapped" in Dougie's life, he would have to be expecting Dale to come back out of the Black Lodge in the first place. Which he was not.


yes he was ! that is why he created Dougie in 1997!


I could see the argument that Dougie was solely created in order to go back into the lodge instead of Mr. C (ignoring the whole swap idea). However, the presence and timing of the assassins indicates otherwise.
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referendum
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:57 am

I could see the argument that Dougie was solely created in order to go back into the lodge instead of Mr. C (ignoring the whole swap idea). However, the presence and timing of the assassins indicates otherwise


''someone manufactured you for a purpose... but i think now that's been fulfilled''

'' it has'' ?

AAAAAAAAGH
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cgs027
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby cgs027 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:03 am

referendum wrote:
I could see the argument that Dougie was solely created in order to go back into the lodge instead of Mr. C (ignoring the whole swap idea). However, the presence and timing of the assassins indicates otherwise


''someone manufactured you.... for a purpose... but i think now that's been fulfilled''

'' it has'' ?

AAAAAAAAGH
<disappears>


Yep, I could see interpreting that "purpose" to be having Dougie getting pulled back into the lodge instead or Mr. C, so that he could continue his shenanigans in the real world. Nothing to do with Coop swapping with either of them. Again, I don't agree that the switch-out wasn't a known angle of this plan, but I can see this POV. However, the assassins indicate that Mr. C expected someone to come out in Vegas. If he expected Dougie to get sucked in, period, then end of story, no reason for this hit to be scheduled for that time.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Troubbble » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:08 am

cgs027 wrote:
Troubbble wrote:For the Doppelganger to intend that Dale be "trapped" in Dougie's life, he would have to be expecting Dale to come back out of the Black Lodge in the first place. Which he was not.


Disagree. If you watch that scene in the car, Mr. C is watching the clock on the dashboard intently, implying that he knew a swap was to take place at 2:53. I have to assume he also set the assassins in place to ensure that Coop gets taken out after Coop switches with Dougie, whom he manufactured to make the swap back into the lodge instead of himself.


Ahhh, wait - I think you're right about that bit. But that doesn't mean I get it, either!

His focus on the time could be attributed solely to his plan for Dougie to be taken back at that moment, in accordance with everything he had set up... But the assassins he sent after Dougie when Dougie should already have been gone... They confuse things, don't they?

It certainly seemed like the real Cooper was only freed from the Lodge to return once Mike and The Arm had become aware of the Doppelganger's mischief - so I'm not sure how or why the Doppelganger would be expecting Dale to appear at that time. Unless the rules governing his time away from the Lodge are equally applicable to Cooper's time spent locked up INSIDE the Lodge? I can't really figure it.

(One thing to note, though, is that he still couldn't have been planning for Dale to be "trapped" in Dougie's life! Because, as you say, he clearly had contingencies in place in case Cooper appeared--and wanted him to die immediately.)

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