Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

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Mr. Strawberry
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:09 am

Without Dougie:
Dale returns, and The Doppelganger goes back into The Black Lodge. Classic swap.

With Dougie:
Dale returns, and The Dougie does back into The Black Lodge. Hacked swap.


Either way a swap is set to occur and The Doppelganger knew that Dale would be returning.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby vicksvapor77 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:14 am

Mr. Strawberry wrote:Without Dougie:
Dale returns, and The Doppelganger goes back into The Black Lodge. Classic swap.

With Dougie:
Dale returns, and The Dougie does back into The Black Lodge. Hacked swap.


Either way a swap is set to occur and The Doppelganger knew that Dale would be returning.


Yeah, that's how I see the situation also. Cooper was always going to get out, the issue is would Mr. C have to go back in? He manufactured Dougie to take his place in the Red Room and set up the assassins to kill Cooper to make sure Cooper could never send him back in (which is clearly what Cooper is going to try to do next.)
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referendum
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:15 am

One thing to note, though, is that he still couldn't have been planning for Dale to be "trapped" in Dougie's life! Because, as you say, he clearly had contingencies in place in case Cooper appeared--and wanted him to die immediately.)

get out clause?

personally i think it is great that everyone sees this slighly differently, the same thing from different angles.
result!
2 hours from the end and no one is really sure what the fuck is going on.
i think that's a win.
Last edited by referendum on Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby cgs027 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:16 am

Troubbble wrote:
cgs027 wrote:
Troubbble wrote:For the Doppelganger to intend that Dale be "trapped" in Dougie's life, he would have to be expecting Dale to come back out of the Black Lodge in the first place. Which he was not.


Disagree. If you watch that scene in the car, Mr. C is watching the clock on the dashboard intently, implying that he knew a swap was to take place at 2:53. I have to assume he also set the assassins in place to ensure that Coop gets taken out after Coop switches with Dougie, whom he manufactured to make the swap back into the lodge instead of himself.

(One thing to note, though, is that he still couldn't have been planning for Dale to be "trapped" in Dougie's life! Because, as you say, he clearly had contingencies in place in case Cooper appeared--and wanted him to die immediately.)


Agree with this 100%. I subscribe to the theory that Coop was just fried from sitting in a chair in a room with crazy ass backwards speak and no sense of time for 25 years. Not to mention the electrical shock of traversing from lodge-land to Vegas.
Last edited by cgs027 on Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Manwith » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:17 am

Mr. Strawberry wrote:Without Dougie:
Dale returns, and The Doppelganger goes back into The Black Lodge. Classic swap.

With Dougie:
Dale returns, and The Dougie does back into The Black Lodge. Hacked swap.


Either way a swap is set to occur and The Doppelganger knew that Dale would be returning.


I agree 100%. It seems to me there's a lodge rule that a Doppleganger can only replace a real human for 25 years. Mr. C cheated to avoid the 25 year swap, and Mike is trying to fix things so the rules are followed.
cgs027
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby cgs027 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:21 am

Mr. Strawberry wrote:Without Dougie:
Dale returns, and The Doppelganger goes back into The Black Lodge. Classic swap.

With Dougie:
Dale returns, and The Dougie does back into The Black Lodge. Hacked swap.


Either way a swap is set to occur and The Doppelganger knew that Dale would be returning.


The ole classic doppelgänger swap. Ha, love it.
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Firewalkwithme91
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Firewalkwithme91 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:40 am

ONLY 2 DAYS LEFT! WAAAAAH! I´m having a freak out. :mrgreen:
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ScarFace32
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby ScarFace32 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:38 am

BGate wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:
cgs027 wrote:
Yeah, I actually thought the tulpa-deseeding process looked very Terry Gilliam-esque, and was apropos. Now, the real world Duncan Todd headshot is another story -- I much prefer the practical effects of something like Bobby shooting the guy in the head in the woods in FWWM, but given that it was not a close-up, so be it... (but still thought it looked unintentionally cheesy -- it's not like they had a Microsoft Paint burst of red appear when Mr. C shot Ray).




You realize you are literally proving the other side's point with these posts, right?


How's that? There is difference between special effects being unrealistic or surrealistic and being really shitty shoddy come free in a cereal box cheap
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Cappy
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Cappy » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:46 am

I would sort of love it if there were some software program like Spider Man Cartoon Maker for the Twin Peaks universe.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby whoisalhedges » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:52 am

Come on, folks. :lol:

I don't think I'm smarter than anyone else here, but I don't think it's too complicated, either... y'all are getting there.

If Mr. C had never made Dougie: as stated, he (being the doppelganger) would have been sucked back into the Lodge at 2:53. As he told Darya he was supposed to. Special Agent Dale Cooper would have switched spots - into a car with a kilo of coke, an automatic weapon, and a dog's leg: enough to lock him up long enough for the authorities to find Mr. C's trail of bodies. Everybody loses. The Bad Guy goes back into the Black Lodge, which he doesn't want; and Our Special Agent goes to prison for life, which none of us wants.

Mr. C had no intent of going back in. But if he did, he wanted to make sure Coop paid.

The plan with Dougie: Coop switches places with the Las Vegas insurance agent. He's shot by assassins right after the switch takes place. Dougie dissolved in the Lodge, Coop dead in Nevada. The end. Mr. C is free forever.

The implications we can argue about forever... but I thought Mr. C's plan was dead simple.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby cgs027 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:01 pm

whoisalhedges wrote:Come on, folks. :lol:

I don't think I'm smarter than anyone else here, but I don't think it's too complicated, either... y'all are getting there.

If Mr. C had never made Dougie: as stated, he (being the doppelganger) would have been sucked back into the Lodge at 2:53. As he told Darya he was supposed to. Special Agent Dale Cooper would have switched spots - into a car with a kilo of coke, an automatic weapon, and a dog's leg: enough to lock him up long enough for the authorities to find Mr. C's trail of bodies. Everybody loses. The Bad Guy goes back into the Black Lodge, which he doesn't want; and Our Special Agent goes to prison for life, which none of us wants.

Mr. C had no intent of going back in. But if he did, he wanted to make sure Coop paid.

The plan with Dougie: Coop switches places with the Las Vegas insurance agent. He's shot by assassins right after the switch takes place. Dougie dissolved in the Lodge, Coop dead in Nevada. The end. Mr. C is free forever.

The implications we can argue about forever... but I thought Mr. C's plan was dead simple.


Yep, I'm buyin this.
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referendum
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:09 pm

Yep, I'm buyin this.


quick, let's agree before someone else finds another way of saying exactly the same thing which someone else would have put differently :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
''let's not overthink this opportunity''
whoisalhedges
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby whoisalhedges » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:10 pm

referendum wrote:
Yep, I'm buyin this.


quick, let's agree before someone else finds another way of saying exactly the same thing which someone else would have put differently :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've found agreement to be pretty rare here... maybe the mods should lock this thread now to keep it safe. ;)
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Jasper
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Jasper » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:11 pm

referendum wrote:How i have been seeing it is - Dale Cooper was fully present and conscious but trapped in a sort of Limbo inside the residue of Dougie ( who was a trap set for him by Mr C ). So Dale Cooper has been aware of everything happening and taking note of it ( as Dale Cooper), but has not been able to express it or to ' get out' of Dougie's shell, has not been in control of the vehicle, as it were, so he has been stumbling around in this benign Dougie fog, acting stunned, unable to find the exit. So as soon as he finds a way out, he leaps out ' 100%' - there is no halfway state. Either he is still trapped, or he isn't - either he gets himself back, or he doesn't.


I completely agree. This is what we're being told via Cooper's awakening and his knowledge of things that had been going on around "Dougie", such as Bushnell's concealed carry and the precise make and model of the gun.

"Dougie" was like a numb, transparent shell of Coop, and a fully-aware Cooper was trapped on the inside of this shell, able to observe everything, but only able to lightly influence the actions of "Dougie". Cooper's goodness was able to permeate the shell, but for the most part his wit was not, except for in extreme instances (like the attack by Ike).

It's kind of like being stuck in a dream where you know it's a dream, but you can't seem to wake up. Your sleeping body might stir a bit in response to your awareness, but your conscious mind is essentially trapped in a sleeping body. In Cooper's case Cole's name stirred "Dougie" sufficiently for Cooper to seize a certain level of control, and engineer a way out.

Prior to Part 16, I didn't exactly know how DougieCoop worked. Now I know that there were two layers of consciousness of one person. The outer layer being barely conscious, and the hidden inner layer being fully conscious.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Wonderful & Strange » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:11 pm

When talking about the FX in Twin Peaks, it's important to understand that avant garde artists like surrealists and absurdists often don't value realistic representation. They intentionally value an artificial aesthetic because it challenges and subverts people's preconceptions of what realistic representation is or should be.

When people get upset or annoyed about some of the Lodge FX, it's because they have a preconception of the "real." But there's nothing necessary about this assumption; it's totally contingent on a particular cultural view of realism.

But these sorts of assumptions are obviously unjustified because who can say with any authority what looks realistic or "proper" in a fictional dimensional space like the Black Lodge? The closest authorities are Lynch and Frost.
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