Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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Candie
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Candie » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:07 pm

N. Needleman wrote:
Ross wrote:I agree with pretty much all of this. But at the same time I find it extremely depressing. I really wasn't expecting such a downer ending of Cooper failing once again.


I wasn't either, but in hindsight we should've seen it coming - the vicious twist in the tail is there in so much of his past-FWWM work. I thought both IE's ending - and his stated objective for The Return - precluded that here. I was wrong.

And yeah - I was depressed, scarred, shaken. But I also think it was fucking brilliant Lynch.

Really curious what you think was brilliant because all I'm seeing here is bad writing. On top of that other disappointed fans have been able to break down everything that was bad, but I haven't seen anyone breaking down how it was good on a technical level other than "that's what Lynch's vision was" or "it's different".
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:08 pm

Part 17 started out severely on the wrong foot, almost aggressively playing up everything that's made me uncomfortable so far about TR: the FBI crew sitting around overexplaining shit in bland exposition, making references to Gordon/DKL's virility ("Not where it counts buddy," with a cut to Bell grinning...uggggh), demystifying old mysteries with the kind of bland mythology you can find on any Lost ripoff (Judy), and absurdly retconning the original (when the fuck did Coop, Garland & Cole acquire this knowledge during the original series, let alone discuss it with each other?!).

And the Bob/Freddy fight was even worse than I could have predicted. Ironically, I've been defending the visual effects in the Part 16 thread over the past couple of days, as they're clearly extensions of DKL's work in paint, sketch, and Photoshop (not that that means they have to work for everyone, but they're clearly intentional artistic choices). The Bob orb superhero battle, though....well, it's obviously a workaround for the loss of Mr. Silva. I love the Evolution of the Arm, the Jeffries teakettle is cool although I dislike the vocal impersonation, and I think Bob had been handled well so far. But this particular solution was....not pretty. I guess I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't acknowledge that this, too, was presumably a conscious artistic choice. But, Jesus, what a cheesy, poorly-handled one. Freddy's backstory is charming and ok on its face, but I've been dreading him playing a major role in the Lodge reckoning. This was just about as cringe-inducing as I could have possibly imagined.

It's funny...going into this, given DKL's last few films, I would have assumed the DoppelCoop storyline would have been used as an opportunity to explore identity and duality. Instead, it seems like almost an afterthought -- something L/F felt obligated to make a big deal out of throughout the season because it was the major cliffhanger, but it functions mostly as a mythology-delivery-system, and DoppelCoop/Bob is dispatched of early in Part 17 with shockingly little fanfare, with a good chunk of runtime to go. I'm sad that the storyline didn't pay off in a better way, and that the wind-up was so frigging silly and cartoonish, but I am at least grateful that it ended when it did so that the show could go to a far more interesting place for its final 90 minutes or so.

(Caveat: I have no clue what actually happened in the final 90 minutes, and there is a strong possibility that once we start sorting it out, the Mr. C character/story WILL say more about Coop's identity/duality than we currently realize. Because the multiple Dianes, the trips in and out of the Red Room and potential "joining" of the Coops, Coop's "Mr. C"-esque demeanor in the sex scene, &c. do hint at some sort of overlap between Coopers which I don't think any of us can quite discern from a first viewing.)

I'm also sad that Coop didn't even learn that Harry is sick onscreen. Given the buildup about Harry's illness, I can't believe how little payoff there was to the Dale/Harry friendship. If they hadn't mentioned Harry, or had minimized his presence, I might be a little less disappointed by the lack of a reunion between the original series' leads. But what was the point of constantly reminding us of him just to have Coop make a glancing mention then move on? :-/

So the Dianagram theorists were definitely on to something, re: Naido and Linda. When Diane was covering up Dale's face in the sex scene, I was extremely uncomfortable, since she was obviously trying to avoid recalling her rape by Mr. C. It crossed my mind that the scene was needlessly exploitative, unless Diane is the dreamer and this has all been her story. There is something satisfying about the unseen listener-character from the original run being the dreamer. I don't think that's what ended up happening (although who the hell knows), but I do think Diane and Audrey are both somehow central to all of this (in a different way from Laura). Also interesting that the Audrey rape is left as vague as it was when it was first implied, and Dale isn't directly forced to confront raping either of these women. We know DoppelCoop had the real Dale's memories of Jeffries' appearance in FWWM; how much does Dale remember of what Mr. C did? How does it affect him?

Part 18 clinches Zabriskie as the season MVP. I didn't think any use of the homecoming photo could top "Pennsylvania 6-5000," but holy crap. Still really not sure what any of this says about Sarah's culpability in Laura's rape and murder, and the implications make me slightly uneasy, but on a pure visceral level, hers have been consistently among the strongest scenes on the show.

Unpacking the exploits of Richard, Linda, Carrie Page & Alice Tremond is an adventure for another day. I feel the same things I felt after my first viewing of IE: complete and utter bewilderment, frustration, and wonder. On subsequent viewings, IE became one of my favorite films. I can't wait to peel back the layers of this thing, but I'm far too exhausted right now.
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yaxomoxay
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby yaxomoxay » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:09 pm

Question: if TP:TR was a dream and goodCooper knew it, what was the purpose of re creating Dougie and make Jeaney-E happy?


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Cipher
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Cipher » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:09 pm

N. Needleman wrote:
Ross wrote:I agree with pretty much all of this. But at the same time I find it extremely depressing. I really wasn't expecting such a downer ending of Cooper failing once again.


I wasn't either, but in hindsight we should've seen it coming - the vicious twist in the tail is there in so much of his past-FWWM work. I thought both IE's ending - and his stated objective for The Return - precluded that here. I was wrong.

And yeah - I was depressed, scarred, shaken. But I also think it was fucking brilliant Lynch.

The only thing that threw me off the trail (although I did, weirdly, have a dream earlier in the week about a particularly gutting ending that had Cooper taking on the weight of all his doppelganger's experiences -- not really that far off the mark), was the fact that Lynch gave such an unusually comforting and cathartic ending to both Cooper and Laura in Fire Walk With Me, without really absolving Cooper of anything. (And, as you noted, Inland Empire is certainly cathartic, if not comforting.)

And here, in place of that strange comfort and self-acceptance, Cooper's misguided savior complex may have pulled Laura down the rabbit hole once again.

I don't hate it, but that's part of why I'm grappling with whether it's a more satisfactory ending to the story that came before, or simply as an ending to a self-contained story that responds to the mythos of a work twenty-five-year-old work, and the desire, both on part of artists and viewers, to have its world returned to.

Question: if TP:TR was a dream and goodCooper knew it, what was the purpose of re creating Dougie and make Jeaney-E happy?

I don't think it was a dream. The series' supernatural elements remain quite literal, all the way through episode 18. Janey-E and Sonny Jim are still somewhere, even if it's not where Cooper is.
Last edited by Cipher on Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
sewhite2000
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:10 pm

Jonah wrote:
Also, it's so hard to attempt to critique anything by Lynch because as soon as you do, you're told that's the point, go watch something else, yada yada yada.

Pausing to lift out this one sentence as I'm trying to read everything posted on here before going to bed (the page count keeps growing, though)! I would like to give some detailed thoughts on my reaction when I get through reading. Not sure I have the mental energy tonight, though. Anyway, a lot of what I want to say isn't that positive, so I thought I'd throw out the above quote as a buffer. Haters are entitled to their opinions, too!
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Cooperscoffeecup » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:11 pm

Seems like Julee Cruise isn't happy at all. Her post on facebook "I'm done. and I could care Less about TP. My subconscious never lies......I have my answer now of what I will do with the rest of my life!" To quote one of her replies on facebook " I don't like The David Lynch Sabrina Southerland Attitude toward me, and I Will Never Work for The Emperor Again..thank God!" WOW
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby nonemoreblack » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:12 pm

Ross wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:I think if there is a Season 4, whatever happened with Audrey is crucial. I believe there was material cut there.

As for Diane: I think once they crossed over the border, she became "Linda" - she was not protected from the reality shift as Dale was. He warned her things might be different, but he didn't know how much. Once they cross Diane is Linda but Dale is still Dale, not Richard, and to Linda/Diane she is making love to a strange, corrupted stranger. So she leaves. (I also think Cooper felt cocky and ascendent after destroying? BOB - before they cross, he makes advances on Diane, who seems willing but hesitant given the past. Cooper does not notice.)

And the Dale who crossed over is a strange corruption, a meld of our Coop with his doppelganger, corrupted by his new original sin, full of imperfect courage, more appetities and confusion - after violating the past to save a girl in trouble.

In the end Lynch and Frost made Dale Cooper into another of Lynch's latter-day antiheroes, plumbing his depths like Diane/Betty in MD or Fred/Pete in LH. His fatal flaws warp his world and damn him to the abyss.

If the show goes forward, IMO it will not be down to Hero Cooper to save reality. He is too in love with being the Special Agent. Like episode 29, he has never gotten over the spectre of Caroline, the original woman he could not save.

I agree with pretty much all of this. But at the same time I find it extremely depressing. I really wasn't expecting such a downer ending of Cooper failing once again.


Same. Cooper is such a breath of fresh air. I can handle a lot with Twin Peaks, but Cooper changing in that way...it's extremely upsetting to me.

I need some time to take that finale in.
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N. Needleman
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:12 pm

NewtoTwinPeaks wrote:- Who was it that called Cooper in episode 2? Cooper asks Jeffries this, but is it ever answered?


He thought it was Jeffries. My suspicion it was Judy/Ju Dei (how do we say it?). I think the Bad Dale may have been searching for the negative entity but never knew exactly what it was. He is baffled when the real Jeffries tells him "you've already met Judy". He tells Darya he is looking for just a symbol. Like the good Dale, his logic and information was failed.

- How did that ring end up in Major's stomach? Who put it there?


My guess? Briggs himself after ascending to the White Lodge, as a clue.

- How did Major Briggs die? I remember Matthew Lillard saying his head started to float, but not much more.


I think Black Lodge denizens tore some aspect of his self apart, on orders from Ju Dei/Judy or the Bad Dale.

- What was the Doppleganger's plan? He showed Daria the card with the 'Mother of All Evil' symbol but what exactly was he looking for from her? I don't really understand his end goal.


Again: I think he was searching for either Judy/Ju Dei, the White Lodge or both. But like the good Cooper he was never capable enough to fully comprehend. The minute he enters the White Lodge he is ensnared and sent to his predestined doom.

- What's up with Audrey?


Yes.

- What's up with the guy that presumable killed himself? Not sure if there was much point to that storyline.


Drugs are bad.

- Who exactly are Richard and Linda?


Warped alternate selves of Dale and Diane.
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NewtoTwinPeaks
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby NewtoTwinPeaks » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:13 pm

^ So what happened with Julee Cruise?
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N. Needleman
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:16 pm

Candie wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:
Ross wrote:I agree with pretty much all of this. But at the same time I find it extremely depressing. I really wasn't expecting such a downer ending of Cooper failing once again.


I wasn't either, but in hindsight we should've seen it coming - the vicious twist in the tail is there in so much of his past-FWWM work. I thought both IE's ending - and his stated objective for The Return - precluded that here. I was wrong.

And yeah - I was depressed, scarred, shaken. But I also think it was fucking brilliant Lynch.

Really curious what you think was brilliant because all I'm seeing here is bad writing.


What would you like me to say? I thought the lighting, cutting, performances, sound design were stellar. I thought the ending, while brutal, fit both Lynch and especially Frost's conception of Cooper - from the ancillary materials like his autobiography, from the back half of Season 2 and particularly from episode 29 - as a flawed hero with a savior complex that is his undoing. He tries to roll back the truth of unalterable trauma and pain (Laura's death) just as he ran from his ghosts in the Red Room in 29, but instead is lost in limbo.
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
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yaxomoxay
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby yaxomoxay » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:16 pm

Cooperscoffeecup wrote:Seems like Julee Cruise isn't happy at all. Her post on facebook "I'm done. and I could care Less about TP. My subconscious never lies......I have my answer now of what I will do with the rest of my life!" To quote one of her replies on facebook " I don't like The David Lynch Sabrina Southerland Attitude toward me, and I Will Never Work for The Emperor Again..thank God!" WOW


Yep! She is pissed!!!


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Esselgee
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Esselgee » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:17 pm

So might we get a reason now why Ontkean dropped out? Did he possibly get to read the whole script and changed his mind? He would have had probably just the single scene with Kyle in 17 and thought it just wouldn't be worthwhile?

Maybe the RR2GO stuff was part of being in the franchise or thought up by Walter. Maybe Norma stopped doing that after she sold her franchise rights. She may have just wanted to keep her business simple after that and just painted over the RR2GO.

Too bad Laura Dern wasn't cast as Annie all those years ago. Lynch seemed more interested in getting Dern and MacLachlan to hook up on screen again than anything else in part 18. If Dern had played Annie, he probably would have had Cooper reunite with Annie. I guess Lynch wasn't a big fan of Heather Graham?
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ThumbsUp
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby ThumbsUp » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:17 pm

Tailsun wrote:
ThumbsUp wrote:
Tailsun wrote:
Thank you for this - I thought I remembered Audrey mentioning the "girl down the lane." Those other details thought - amazing!

I felt tons of deja vu during part 18 and I'm sure there are even more moments that were "seeded" earlier in the series. Very reminiscent of MD. I think Jeffries' manipulation of the Owl Cave/ring symbol is relevant here. A familiar representation of our reality (or story as you put it) rearranging and folding in on itself until it becomes "infinity," distorting our story into something uncanny. Definitely veering into extreme abstraction, even by TP standards. I'd be curious to see if this changes the impact of some scenes with a rewatch.


I loved it. Speaking of Diane, when she and Coop are having sex, is she putting her hands on his face to block out memories of her assault? Or was she touching his face to see if it was really him? Why were they having sex in the first place, and why did it seem to splinter another timeline?

It seemed like a lot of deju vu or repeat experiences the characters were going through, maybe with different versions of themselves, which links back to Jeffries' infinity symbol and the many teapots, and the larger running themes of TP like doppelgangers, lookalikes, dreams, past and future, chanting out between two worlds, etc.


Re: Diane touching Cooper's face - she was blind as Naido, and if I recall correctly she recognized Cooper by touching his face when he arrived at the room with the fireplace. It didn't seem to me that she was trying to just block his face, it was much more intentional than that. Maybe her memory is so distorted that she can only recognize him by feeling? Maybe that version of Diane is more Naido - whatever that means?

Time for me to get some sleep, I think.


Oh wow, amazing call! More plays on deja vu, reincarnation, memories, who-knows-what. Naido definitely did the same thing with Coop's face.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Esselgee » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:19 pm

Julee Cruise should be pissed. Look at all those other acts that we had to sit through that got to perform a whole song. Now we get the one we've been waiting for and it was maybe 30 seconds or so. Even James got to do his whole song!
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N. Needleman
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:19 pm

Oh, Julee.
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