Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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hopesfall
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby hopesfall » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:51 am

mtwentz wrote:At what point did everyone realize that nearly none of the subplots were going to be resolved? For me, I think it was about ten minutes into Part 18.


Personally, exactly what you said, but remove the number 8 from your post.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby nonemoreblack » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:58 am

mtwentz wrote:At what point did everyone realize that nearly none of the subplots were going to be resolved? For me, I think it was about ten minutes into Part 18.


When Cooper's faded face came on screen saying they live in a dream, I knew this wasn't going to go how I hoped.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Qubism » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:59 am

I am reminded of the response of some to the ending of "The Prisoner" in the UK in 1968, a year before I was born. Apparently many people wanted a nice tidy ending with everything explained and spoonfed. They didn't want to have to think, reflect or interpret. Supposedly the star and co-creator Patrick McGoohan felt he had to "go into hiding" for fear of torch bearing angry mobs!

There is no way on God's holy Earth that we were going to get a neat and tidy wrap up, and thank God.
Actually part 17 is almost the crowd pleasing ending :-)

I don't think there is an ending. Twin Peaks exists in all of our minds as an almost multi-Tulpa maybe :-)

We are made of atoms that were created by nuclear fusion in the heart of the sun or any of the countless billions of other stars. Maybe a few atoms have come from the 2624 successful nuclear detonations since Trinity (the code name of the first detonation of a nuclear weapon. It was conducted by the United States Army at 5:29 a.m. on July 16, 1945, as part of the Manhattan Project.) The atoms don't die.

There is another "Ending" I also think of, the ending of "The Elephant Man".

"Never. Oh, never. Nothing will die. The stream flows, the wind blows, the cloud fleets, the heart beats. Nothing will die...." it seems that John Merrick's Mother is saying this, we see her face in the stars, in space.

The line is actually part of a poem by Alfred, Lord Tennyson, Poet Laureate of Great Britain and Ireland during much of Queen Victoria's reign (he remains one of the most popular British poets).

The full poem is here:

"When will the stream be aweary of flowing
Under my eye?
When will the wind be aweary of blowing
Over the sky?
When will the clouds be aweary of fleeting?
When will the heart be aweary of beating?
And nature die?
Never, oh! never, nothing will die;
The stream flows,
The wind blows,
The cloud fleets,
The heart beats,
Nothing will die.

Nothing will die;
All things will change
Thro’ eternity.
‘Tis the world’s winter;
Autumn and summer
Are gone long ago;
Earth is dry to the centre,
But spring, a new comer,
A spring rich and strange,
Shall make the winds blow
Round and round,
Thro’ and thro’,
Here and there,
Till the air
And the ground
Shall be fill’d with life anew.

The world was never made;
It will change, but it will not fade.
So let the wind range;
For even and morn
Ever will be
Thro’ eternity.
Nothing was born;
Nothing will die;
All things will change."

Twin Peaks exists and I am eternally thankful for it -
Never, oh! never, nothing will die;
The stream flows,
THE WIND BLOWS,
The cloud fleets,
The heart beats,
Nothing will die.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Cipher » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:00 am

mtwentz wrote:At what point did everyone realize that nearly none of the subplots were going to be resolved? For me, I think it was about ten minutes into Part 18.

The sex scene. It became clear we weren't going to leave 1) this mood, or 2) this reality, after that.

Re: above: "Beyond Life and Death" indeed.
Last edited by Cipher on Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Nighthawk » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:00 am

I just finished watching the last two episodes and... I am not sure what to think. There was a lot that I liked, but also some stuff that fell completely flat. I liked the first half of part 17, minus the super cheesy Bob orb dispatch by Freddie. A great touch was when Andy asked Mr. C whether he wants some coffee. The whole setup of the scene with Sheriff Truman and Mr. C was excellent. I was actually sad when the action moved away from the Sheriff station, never to return.

Diane's character arc always felt retconned into the story and the brief romance that she and Cooper shared seems nonsensical. Cooper wasn't in love with Diane in the original series and after that he was in the lodge. I can buy into the idea that Diane was in love with Cooper back in the day, but it was not reciprocated. I don't understand what was the point of them having that mechanical sexual act at a cheap motel. At first I thought it is some way of Cooper making amends for Mr. C raping Diane years earlier by re-staging the encounter in a consensual manner. However, I seem to remember Diane saying that Cooper raped her at her house so it's not an exact fit. Still, perhaps that's all it was. They relived the moment to try and erase past damage. I don't know what to make of the fact that Diane did not travel with Cooper to the alternate reality he found himself in. Did she travel to another version of reality?

Cooper sure found himself in a messed up place at the end. He also seemed to be "off" although that seems to have started when he emerged from the Black Lodge at Glastonbury Grove. In an encounter with local hillbillies Cooper showed that he still has his essential skills and instinct, but his movement is otherwise different, stilted. He's shuffling around much like in his DougieCoop state. His behavior then becomes unnervingly strange when he points a gun around carelessly with other people present. Good Cooper would obviously never do that. Laura turns out to be alive, but does not seem to have her identity. The dead body in her house! Cooper did not even bat an eyelash regarding dead man's presence. Another sign that something is wrong with him.

Then the very end. Tremonds/Chalfonts as owners of the Palmer house. Apparently lodge spirits are still in control of it. Laura's scream at the end to signify that horrors are not over.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby BHell » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:06 am

Hey,
a long time lurker here.

I did enjoy the episode and I guess I might even quite like it (just give me some more time on that judgement).

But there's one thing that's bugging me, that hasn't come up in the discussion yet: Considering what it led to - why the hell did Leland tell Cooper to "find Laura"? He did not seem to have any malicioius intent when he did so in the red room.
Could it be he just want to right the wrongs he commited (or rather: let Bob commit) towards Laura?
Or was there a more "mythological" reason? What if Cooper really needed to find Laura to counteract Judy? Episode 8 seemed to imply that Laura herself at least symbolizes some kind of ultimate goodness - in direct oppossition to Bob. And if Judy is indeed inhabiting Sarah (and that is a big IF), she (it?) didn't seem too pleased, when Cooper stole Laura from the FWWM-Scene. In that case, maybe the ending is not as depressing as it might seem, all things considered.

I guess there is a good chance the series would have ended in the sheriff's station, hadn't Logde-Leland implanted the idea of rescuing Laura into Cooper's mind. Helper syndrome or not. So, any ideas from those on this board that are more enlightened than me?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:11 am

Cipher wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:I can't sleep either, BTW. Bone-tired but can't do it, not unlike after MD. Too shaken up. Gonna watch some silly horror shit to put my mind off that hell of a finale.

I'm on Japan time, so I got to watch this episode at ten in the morning, and yeah, it's been on my mind all day. Some of the prep work I was going to do got put aside. (I had today off, serendipitously.)


I have a massive work writing deadline on Tuesday (and another Wednesday, lol). But I def won't be asleep for awhile.

Final thoughts for the night (maybe): If there is a Season 4, Dale Cooper is no longer the hero for this story. His savior complex has left him hopelessly blinkered and inadequate twice in 25 years. This may be down to who it's always been down to - Laura Palmer.

And hey - maybe Audrey Horne.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby TweetPeak » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:13 am

mtwentz wrote:At what point did everyone realize that nearly none of the subplots were going to be resolved? For me, I think it was about ten minutes into Part 18.


as i did indeed read the russian spoilers, i knew what would await. i knew that from the descriptions
there wouldn be much room for anything else.

so that would be between ep 14 and 15.

i did know that the James/Laura/Pete scenes and the drawing of Carrie Page in Odessa could only
mean that Pete would not find anything wrapped in Plastic that morning.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Jonah » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:15 am

I just woke up and realised it was all a dream. I never watched anything last night.

"Where's Annie?" (thumbs up)
&
The angel in the lodge. (ahhhh)

Hello :?:
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Cipher » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:19 am

BHell wrote:But there's one thing that's bugging me, that hasn't come up in the discussion yet: Considering what it led to - why the hell did Leland tell Cooper to "find Laura"? He did not seem to have any malicioius intent when he did so in the red room.
Could it be he just want to right the wrongs he commited (or rather: let Bob commit) towards Laura?
Or was there a more "mythological" reason? What if Cooper really needed to find Laura to counteract Judy? Episode 8 seemed to imply that Laura herself at least symbolizes some kind of ultimate goodness - in direct oppossition to Bob. And if Judy is indeed inhabiting Sarah (and that is a big IF), she (it?) didn't seem too pleased, when Cooper stole Laura from the FWWM-Scene. In that case, maybe the ending is not as depressing as it might seem, all things considered.

I guess there is a good chance the series would have ended in the sheriff's station, hadn't Logde-Leland implanted the idea of rescuing Laura into Cooper's mind. Helper syndrome or not. So, any ideas from those on this board that are more enlightened than me?

That's definitely one of the bigger mysteries, right?

Who's the only person who actually tells Cooper to find Laura? Leland, the only other person we've seen host Bob. And he only does it after she's whisked away, presumably, because of Cooper's own actions.

Could it just be that their two motivations come together into one unfortunate loop? Leland's guilt and greed--a need to see his daughter returned, and Cooper's desire to kill two birds with one stone by saving Laura and stopping Judy. Both are short-sighted; both have only part of a picture and somewhat naive goals. Cooper's actions trigger Leland's plea; Leland's plea spurs on Cooper's sense of righteousness without due examination.

As far as the ending being depressing, it's horrifying in the moment, but I'm coming around to the idea that Laura's awakening and the seeming shattering of that reality may in fact promise something more redemptive to come.

Though, agreed with posts above; Cooper won't be the one to lead them out of it. Laura's the one -- our gateway into the mystery, and the only one with the hard-fought self-perspective to solve her way out of her own fate.
Last edited by Cipher on Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mace » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:21 am

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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Another owl » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:23 am

Jonah wrote:Quick Thoughts on Part 18 -

Ugh. It was just awful. Single-handedly the worst episode of any TV show I've ever seen. The worst finale ever.

And I usually hate it when people say things like that and jump in to defend the writers/creators. But this was just awful. Even leaving aside the dashed/hopes expectations (of seeing Audrey again, of seeing a battle or a reunion between Laura and Sarah) it was dull. Even if it is somehow explained through a lot of creative apologist revisionist criticism and there's some deep metaphysical or metafictional explanation to Odessa and Carrie Page, it was just dull. I know it might all be a dream - or another level of reality - or Cooper somehow trying to save Laura and prevent/retcon her murder, screwed up reality - blah blah blah. No explanation - no matter how clever - can save the fact that it was just a dull, tedious hour of TV. This wasn't "Mulholland Drive" or even "Inland Empire". Even with the latter, when you didn't know what was going on, the visuals and the style was alluring or intriguing or shocking. This was just painfully boring. I've been mixed on this season - veering between disappointed and trying to make the best of it - and always admitted it was not the "Twin Peaks" revival I had dreamed/hoped/longed for, but tried to make the best of it and always respected the creators' choices to follow their own truth and vision, but this was just shit imo.

Ok so....

On a bigger note:

No resolution to Becky. Or Shelley. Or Red. Or Sarah. Or (and this is the hardest to swallow) Audrey. Let alone Annie, et al.

Oh well.

But again, even leaving aside expectations and dashed hopes for plot/character resolution, leaving ALL that aside, even viewing this as some sort of meta anti-narrative, this was just a tedious, boring episode. (That final scene - spoiled by TMZ - had a mildly intriguing Chalfont/Tremond connection, but was otherwise completely lacking in every department.)


THANK YOU!
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby wxray » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:33 am

yaxomoxay wrote:So MacLachlan played five roles. Add Richard to the list.

Still digesting this mess. While I do, I want to say MacLachlan was brilliant.

In the final Odessa and TP scenes, it disturbed me that a bit of EvilCoop drained into our beloved Cooper.

Oh, THAT'S THE POINT!

We now see the real Coop. Richard, if you will. A little bit of our happy Boy Scout from S1&S2, and a little of EvilCoop from S3. This is the real Coop. And, it ain't always pretty.
Last edited by wxray on Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Cipher » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:34 am

I guess I'll say one more thing: I'm glad these episodes didn't rob the series' supernatural elements of their mystery. I was dreading a kind of all-is-revealed resolution to the A-plots: a Mr. C and Mother White Lodge-takeover or something like that. Planets aligning, the world in danger, big mythology-related exposition.

Instead, everything's retained a huge air of mystery as cosmic forces swirling around the series' overarching mystery. We continue to understand just enough to read their emotional impact. We basically know as much as we started with: there is evil (fear), there is good (love), Laura exists at the center.

And yes, MacLachlan give five characters.
Last edited by Cipher on Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby bastia » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:34 am

I cannot comment in any way what i have just seen. This goes beyond.


But I noticed one thing, during the All movie there were many girls/woman with a circle necklace.

But then, when the Lost Coop found carry page, she had an incomplete circle necklace. Like if the perfect circle was broken.

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