BHell wrote:I do find that kind of interpretation quite witty and entertaining, but I won't lie: It does not convince me. If that phrase was a warning, it was worded extremely badly. Not just simply because Cooper didn't get it; but because it achieved the polar opposite of what it intendend to. Simply omitting the "430" would have sufficed to prevent Cooper from doing what he did. Heck, without the "430" he would not even have needed any kind of warning.
Fair enough. But then it's even more hopeful, right?
I just realized Laura's disappearance happens after Sarah(Judy?) is seen stabbing her photo in the original timeline, which causes a jumping/flickering effect.
If that's the case:
1) Cooper goes a little too far and attempts to save Laura
2) Judy whisks Laura off before she can make it to whatever safety Cooper intends
3) Cooper follows the Fireman's clues to find her, and eventually does, but at great personal expense; regardless, Laura has woken up; maybe she'll lead them (Cooper's certainly not the hero now) to something better to come, or at least to something less convenient for Judy. Laura and Cooper as continuous pieces in this struggle; continually destined to attempt to save one another.
Or it's bleaker (because it certainly is in the moment), and that's just how mysteries are.
Last edited by Cipher on Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ok I've read through everything on here so far and just wanted to share some thoughts, some of which I don't think have been mentioned here yet (although I admit I haven't read the Part 17 thread yet).
Overall it was a gripping watch, part 17 more than 18, by design... but I can't say I'm completely surprised how the show decided to end. I feel like Frost (and possibly Lynch) as well as comments from producers like Nevin made me believe this would have a definitive ending, boy was I wrong to think that! Having said that, I don't feel any of this is out of character for either a Lynch work (many of his recent works have ended like this) or Twin Peaks itself.
Sure everything in these parts are way out there from what the original show did (and you can say that about this season generally), but this feels like a progression of that world, the people that made that world (i.e. Lynch/Frost etc.) and the "meta" elements that play an active part in shaping the piece (actor availability, it taking place 25 years later, being on cable etc.)
I will need to rewatch the episodes again to decipher what's going on, or rather come to a better interpretation. It looks like Cooper messed things up again for himself by being a bit eager. He created a time paradox which 1) means everything we've watched (seasons 1 - 3) took place in an unstable timeline/universe/dream on the verge of collapse (a bit like Donnie Darko?) 2) meant he woke up in a new reality as Richard? where things aren't exactly right and Laura isn't Laura on top of other things.
My first reaction to Carrie Page was to think it was Laura Palmer having a secret identity and trying to pretend she doesn't remember Twin Peaks etc. Say Cooper saved Laura in episode 17, regardless of the disappearance and things i.e. that fateful night doesn't play out like FWWM and Laura lives to see morning. She might, knowing the trauma she suffered, decide to run away from home and reset.
She then has someone show up and say a name she hasn't heard in 25 years... trying to take you to the home you escaped - I'd pretend ignorance too. The rest of the episode doesn't play this way though, and she may genuinely not know what Cooper was talking about at least until that final scream which was definitely Laura-levels.
I think Twin Peaks has often tried to say things on more than one level, and that has both been one of the most intriguing things about it but also the very reason it can bring forth frustration or disappointment. This finale is full of this, with a lot feeling like it's speaking directly to the viewer, with things happening in the story either to play in line with our expectations or to horrifically subvert them. Adding lengthy car scenes that are atmospheric but feels like trolling or having a Gordon Cole info-dump that whilst intriguing (and answering long held fan questions) felt completely superfluous when everything's said and done. The Freddie and BOB showdown playing out like both an homage and a spoof of current tv/movie trends in the superhero genre to both engrossing and sort of lacklustre effect depending on where you sit when it comes to those things.
"But that's the point" is something a lot of this keeps going back to, and Twin Peaks (future, and past) keeps going back to, time and again. For both good and bad. Everything is clearly deliberate Frost and Lynch at the end of the day.
Other random thoughts:
That sex scene with Diane was incredibly unnerving, Lynch sure knows how to film disturbing sex scenes. Was it good imo? Yes, in that it achieved the emotions it wanted to convey but I don't understand why it was there. Like something others mentioned their relationship felt a bit contrived. I think it's possible Cooper may have met Diane in the lodges, before the Naido switch and maybe their love developed there.
What Cooper says in the sheriff's office suggests during the 25 years, he's been busy scheming with Major Briggs and planning a plot to overthrow Judy. All of that does make it seem like a lot of Cooper's decisions are based on the Fireman and Briggs' instruction - so the ending to the show is on them as much as Cooper.
It's crazy how the scene for the very ending of the show leaked, but I think what's crazier is how much of the teasers (which I presume were cut or supervised by Lynch) involved so many shots of the last two episodes! Again, was that Lynch playing with us, or was it because he had been editing the finale when they asked for teasers so he just picked a few shots from it?
Someone mentioned earlier this entire season was both as a season (in a meta level) and as a story a cautionary tale about being careful what you wish for and that some pain and damage is irreversible - and I think that's a fair takeaway.
I hope there's a season 4... if for no other reason but to have Frost/Lynch/MacLachlan continue working together. I think this ending works, but would like to see more of it play out.
18: Lots to think about! It seemed like the first episode of Season 4 to me, which seems to be a popular interpretation round here. Really hoping that this means we'll get something else. I realised with about 20 mins left that nothing major was going to happen to suddenly explain everything, and I like that. I hated the idea that everything would be wrapped up.
Am also surprised that no-one has mentioned Quantum Leap yet
Cipher wrote:
Fair enough. But then it's even more hopeful, right?
Right. And I'm all for a hopeful ending.
The more one thinks about this episode, the more optimistic (and less bleak) the ending seems. Which interestingly was not the case for the second season's ending, that (at least on this forum) most people prefer. On the other hand, opinions change, so let's see how the public thinks in a few weeks.
Cipher wrote:
3) Cooper follows the Fireman's clues to find her, and eventually does, but at great personal expense; regardless, Laura has woken up; maybe she'll lead them (Cooper's certainly not the hero now) to something better to come, or at least to something less convenient for Judy. Laura and Cooper as continuous pieces in this struggle; continually destined to attempt to save one another.
That however would practically demand some kind of sequel - a "Season 4" or a feature film ("Laura and Dale's Adventures in Dreamland"). Which Lynch and Frost, as far as they are to be believed, are not up to. Well, whatever they decide, I will be contempt with. Most of us will. But should they produce be a fourth season, I hope we won't have to wait another 25 years.
mtwentz wrote:At what point did everyone realize that nearly none of the subplots were going to be resolved? For me, I think it was about ten minutes into Part 18.
Personally, exactly what you said, but remove the number 8 from your post.
I was so mesmerised by what was taking place that I forgot about Ruby, Red etc....until about half way through episode 18.
Just forget you ever saw it. It's better that way.
baxter wrote:17: Best thing I have ever seen, ever.
18: Lots to think about! It seemed like the first episode of Season 4 to me, which seems to be a popular interpretation round here. Really hoping that this means we'll get something else. I realised with about 20 mins left that nothing major was going to happen to suddenly explain everything, and I like that. I hated the idea that everything would be wrapped up.
Am also surprised that no-one has mentioned Quantum Leap yet
BHell wrote:That however would practically demand some kind of sequel - a "Season 4" or a feature film ("Laura and Dale's Adventures in Dreamland"). Which Lynch and Frost, as far as they are to be believed, are not up to. Well, whatever they decide, I will be contempt with. Most of us will. But should they produce be a fourth season, I hope we won't have to wait another 25 years.
I'm not sure that's the case, even with the glimmers of hope this initially bleak ending offers. Judy vs. Fireman, Cooper and Laura's "adventures in dreamland" -- these things are never going to end, even if it's a different situation, a different dreamland. Their roles in the cosmology, as totems, are fixed.
We can be content with the portion of their journeys we got to see; they communicated enough.
Of course, the door is wide open for season 4 if they want it, and I'll watch. This ending increasingly feels right to me, but there are others that could too.
I would kill for a final, happier ending for Laura, at least (I do not, at this point, expect her to come back to life). And to get confirmation that folks like Audrey, Shelly and Bobby turned out okay. But I don't think Cooper will ever come back from this even if the show returns. I think one way or another, at the end of this story he's going in the woods and never coming back this time.
I also legitimately fear - not dislike, mind you, simply fear, because I really liked 18 - that should the show continue Lynch will deny any closed resolution at every turn. He came as close as he may ever with 17, then pivoted back to Cooper's once and future original sin - being the Special Agent who must solve everything. There were likely other ways to stop Judy, but the only one Cooper could conceive of involved him in the starring role of literally disembowling history to save Laura Palmer from her own choice on February 23rd, 1989. I'm not sure Lynch is interested in a final ending that does not plumb another human depth like that, give another sting in the tail. I hope so, but I am not convinced.
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
N. Needleman wrote:I think if there is a Season 4, whatever happened with Audrey is crucial. I believe there was material cut there.
As for Diane: I think once they crossed over the border, she became "Linda" - she was not protected from the reality shift as Dale was. He warned her things might be different, but he didn't know how much. Once they cross Diane is Linda but Dale is still Dale, not Richard, and to Linda/Diane she is making love to a strange, corrupted stranger. So she leaves. (I also think Cooper felt cocky and ascendent after destroying? BOB - before they cross, he makes advances on Diane, who seems willing but hesitant given the past. Cooper does not notice.)
And the Dale who crossed over is a strange corruption, a meld of our Coop with his doppelganger, corrupted by his new original sin, full of imperfect courage, more appetities and confusion - after violating the past to save a girl in trouble.
In the end Lynch and Frost made Dale Cooper into another of Lynch's latter-day antiheroes, plumbing his depths like Diane/Betty in MD or Fred/Pete in LH. His fatal flaws warp his world and damn him to the abyss.
If the show goes forward, IMO it will not be down to Hero Cooper to save reality. He is too in love with being the Special Agent. Like episode 29, he has never gotten over the spectre of Caroline, the original woman he could not save.
If The Return is the odyssey of Cooper then it seems that after some troubles that he faces to return home, almost when he managed to get there he opened the the bag of Aeolus and again was gone to the seas ( dreams and alternate realities).
I think the whole story of The Return is based in Odyssey of Homer. And normally we should have a season 4, where we can see him returning finally home. But it's not necessary. Even the Dougie story reminds me the land of Lotus Eaters
indyit wrote:My first reaction to Carrie Page was to think it was Laura Palmer having a secret identity and trying to pretend she doesn't remember Twin Peaks etc. Say Cooper saved Laura in episode 17, regardless of the disappearance and things i.e. that fateful night doesn't play out like FWWM and Laura lives to see morning. She might, knowing the trauma she suffered, decide to run away from home and reset.
She then has someone show up and say a name she hasn't heard in 25 years... trying to take you to the home you escaped - I'd pretend ignorance too. The rest of the episode doesn't play this way though.
It wouldn't be impossible for them to go in this direction should they reset for a Season 4. It would be hard to explain away other things - and the whole dreamer(s) theory - but this would be a possible direction to go in.
It's crazy how the scene for the very ending of the show leaked, but I think what's crazier is how much of the teasers (which I presume were cut or supervised by Lynch) involved so many shots of the last two episodes! Again, was that Lynch playing with us, or was it because he had been editing the finale when they asked for teasers so he just picked a few shots from it?
I noticed this too. SO many of the glimpses we got were from 17 and 18. And yes, it is crazy that the final scene is the one that leaked!
I hope there's a season 4... if for no other reason but to have Frost/Lynch/MacLachlan continue working together. I think this ending works, but would like to see more of it play out.
I love the idea of a Season 4 with Carrie Page and Dale Cooper exploring the town of Twin Peaks and interacting with the other characters. This ending has reset things - Laura Palmer is alive (whether she's Laura or not), Cooper is back. And they don't necessarily need to explain anything else we saw in Season 3. As for the town itself and the characters, they could start from scratch, either continuing on with what they sort of established in this series - or start from fresh. It could go in a lot of directions.
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Oh and Mark Frost "liked" this tweet:
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I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
Audrey's thread fascinated me, but I would've loved to see her in Diane's place story-wise this season, especially since their threads mirrored each other so much already. Keep her as Richard's mom but make her Linda to be by Coop's side, etc.
I liked Diane as a character and Laura Dern was phenomenal, but her going with Coop on the metaphysical time-traveling trial of truth was weird.[/quote]
I agree with this. The biggest disappointment to me was not seeing Audrey again after that fantastic twist at the end of Episode 16. It really felt like they were setting the stage for Cooper rescuing Audrey, and narratively it felt like a missed opportunity.
Audrey's thread fascinated me, but I would've loved to see her in Diane's place story-wise this season, especially since their threads mirrored each other so much already. Keep her as Richard's mom but make her Linda to be by Coop's side, etc.
I liked Diane as a character and Laura Dern was phenomenal, but her going with Coop on the metaphysical time-traveling trial of truth was weird.[/quote]
I agree with this. The biggest disappointment to me was not seeing Audrey again after that fantastic twist at the end of Episode 16. It really felt like they were setting the stage for Cooper rescuing Audrey, and narratively it felt like a missed opportunity.
I would love to see Sheryl star in a possible Season 4, but I'm not sure she'd be playing Carrie Page, who seems slightly Deer Meadow wrong herself, a crooked product of Cooper's foolish meddling. She works in the bough of Judy. She tries to keep a tidy house but blows men's brains out. When she was young she didn't know better. Maybe like Judy - maybe of Judy, thanks to Cooper's fucking-up.
I can see a timeline where Laura got on with her life despite her molestation - that alt-Laura having a role, maybe. But I think we're all getting ahead of ourselves. This may well be it.
(My lousy fanfic: Married mom of three and pillar of the community Laura Palmer avoids her parents and lives a tortured double life working for the Horne Foundation - c/o CEO Audrey Horne - when a string of bizarre murders in Twin Peaks cause both to sense something is wrong with their world. I know, I know: so cliche.)
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
