Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby mlsstwrt » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:27 am

opium wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:I would kill for a final, happier ending for Laura, at least (I do not, at this point, expect her to come back to life). And to get confirmation that folks like Audrey, Shelly and Bobby turned out okay. But I don't think Cooper will ever come back from this even if the show returns. I think one way or another, at the end of this story he's going in the woods and never coming back this time.


The happy ending for Laura was the ending of FWWM which Lynch has seemingly retconned to hell.


That (FWWM) was the PERFECT ending for Laura. It was one of the most beautiful things I have seen in cinema. I really, really wish it had been left there.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby DeepBlueSeed » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:28 am

TwinsPeak wrote:
richsmith wrote:Does anyone have any thoughts about the incredibly disturbing Sarah Palmer scene, in which she smashes and stabs at the iconic Laura prom queen photograph? I'm assuming it's not a coincidence that right after it Laura disappears from Cooper's sight?


Guessing here but maybe Sarah Palmer(or whatever lives inside Sarah) wanted Laura dead and was upset that Cooper changed her fate. Sarah might have been working with BoB all along...not sure


That's the impression I got.

Man, that scene was disturbing. Just the build up of guttural noise until Sarah appeared. I think the fact we don't see her face some how made it eerier.

The theory I have has possibly been discussed already, but I'm just getting this out now whilst it's fresh in my mind:

I'm assuming Laura not dying on that night wouldn't have been enough to anger the creature, as she could've been killed by Leland/BOB at some other point down the line. But because it's Cooper who saves her, and Cooper was only there in the first place because she had died, it causes some sort of paradox. This results in her being wrenched out of the timeline (out of both timelines) in a disturbing manner and, as I read it, reborn via the 'golden trumpet' at some stage in the past (in Odessa?)

What was Cooper hoping to do by bringing 'Laura' back to Twin Peak? I know Leland asks him to find her, but I can't help but think that bringing her back is a bad thing, as Twin Peaks is the source of a lot of bad things. Indeed, perhaps Leland is not speaking with the best of intentions.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:30 am

DeepBlueSeed wrote:What was Cooper hoping to do by bringing 'Laura' back to Twin Peak?


Be the hero. Stop Judy. But mostly be the hero by saving Laura Palmer, IMO.

I know Leland asks him to find her, but I can't help but think that bringing her back is a bad thing, as Twin Peaks is the source of a lot of bad things. Indeed, perhaps Leland is not speaking with the best of intentions.


I think Leland and his denial/guilt may be speaking out of turn, yes - his fatal flaw, just as Cooper has one. Or it's possible he is telling Cooper to undo what he did, by yanking her out of the Lodge/undoing her death. Or something else.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby ringbearer » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:31 am

Hester Prynne wrote:What does it mean when Jeffries says, "This is where you'll find Judy. There may be someone. Did you ask me this?" Who is the someone and who asked Jeffries this?


Cooper is Jeffries. One and the same.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Cipher » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:35 am

DeepBlueSeed wrote:What was Cooper hoping to do by bringing 'Laura' back to Twin Peak? I know Leland asks him to find her, but I can't help but think that bringing her back is a bad thing, as Twin Peaks is the source of a lot of bad things. Indeed, perhaps Leland is not speaking with the best of intentions.

Leland's motivations are certainly ambiguous (and I posited a few pages ago that his line was prompted by Cooper's actions in the future tearing Laura away in the first place), but I'm fairly certain Cooper is deadset on bringing Laura back to confront Judy as present in Sarah Palmer. He seems completely in-tune with all supernatural factors after his return; that's his "second bird." 1) Save Laura, 2) Stop Judy.

Of course he can't do it--can't be the one to save Laura, can't be the one to undo the presence of all fear/evil/pain and sorrow. He's too self-assured, carrying too much of a savior complex, in too far over his head--always our poor detective. He "saves" Laura, but is in a world that saddles him with all the weight of his multiple personalities, renders him ineffective, removes the central mystery he sought to solve.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby TheGum » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:37 am

The tag line was "it is happening again" and that is very clear here.

There are several ways you can interpret the series as a whole as well as the ending. Here's one that I'm really leaning towards-

Given the numerous references to Buddhist/Tibetan beliefs in the first 2 seasons, I think that absolutely factors in here, either literally or figuratively. Buddhism is essentially all about learning to transcend or become at peace with your pain and suffering (garmonbozia) and realize that life IS suffering. If you can't enlighten yourself and accept your suffering, you experience desires, which causes more suffering, and you repeat the cycle until you can accept your inevitable suffering and reach nirvana which is a state of complete acceptance of and as a result a liberation from suffering.
I believe that despite Cooper's fascination with Buddhism, he was very far from enlightenment. His obsession with attachments- to the town of twin peaks, to Caroline, to Annie, to the FBI, Audrey, and yes, to Laura, particularly this concept of "fixing her death." are all examples of this. Attachments are another cause of suffering- when you love someone, eventually they will cause you suffering, whether they hurt you in some way, or simply by dying, which will hurt you as well. Hell-- he was fascinated with the "plight of the Tibetan people" and wanted to help fix that somehow, a classic example of a massive problem that one person such as Cooper can't possibly fix and a cause of suffering for him. (Not to mention that he has no idea if the Buddhist residents of Tibet want or need help, this could just be a part of their natural suffering in their eyes) All of these attachments led to what we could call his repeated undoing. The owl cave sign turning into an infinity loop is a warning. Jeffries is showing him the path he will go on if he continues this road. I believe that Judy IS suffering, and that she was inside Sarah Palmer- who as a character is the embodiment of suffering. That's the blackness inside of her. I also believe that Laura, in fact actually reached enlightenment, hence the white light inside of her, but that enlightenment can't exist in Cooper's reality because he is not ready or capable of understanding it yet.

Proof of this is in the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism:
1. The existence of suffering.
2. The causes of suffering.
3. The cessation of the causes of suffering
4. The path that leads to the cessation of the causes of suffering

We are introduced to the universal suffering we will all eventually endure, death, immediately in the first couple minutes of the pilot. Laura has endured that suffering and as the show progresses we find that she has endured much more than just that.
As the show moves on we learn about BOB and eventually her father and his role. We see this first hand in FWWM. We see her personal struggles with desire and suffering throughout the original series. Additionally in FWWM we are shown more of her inner turmoil in the first person. Ultimately as the plot moves forward we are introduced to the ring, and another possibility for Laura. A future where she doesn't submit to BOB and a future where she is free not only from the pain he and Leland inflicts on her, but from all of the suffering in her life. She sees in the ring that it is possible to end her suffering. In the conclusion of FWWM she takes the ring, and leaves behind all of her pain, suffering, and attachments on earth to a higher level of enlightenment. We see her rise at the end of the film to this next level of being. And she shows it directly to Cooper at the beginning of The Return.

Unfortunately, Cooper is still at odds with his own suffering and has an intense desire to fix the suffering in the world. When she shows him the light behind her face, she is spirited away from his reality because he cannot accept her peace. He still is obsessed with the idea of "making things right" and helping her whether she wants it of not. His first failure is at the end of season 2 with Caroline, Annie, and Earle. He fails again in FWWM when he tries to persuade Laura not to take the ring. He follows the advice of Leland (who, clearly is not a great person to listen to) in The Return, with the entire season essentially being a long journey back to Twin Peaks, where he fixes the immediate problems, but then quickly returns to the lodge to retcon Laura's death. Jeffries WARNS him he is on an infinite path and he disregards him. He saves Laura, but Judy, or suffering in general wins out, because saving her does nothing to rid the world of suffering, so this reality ends and he finds himself back in the lodge. Here he has another opportunity to behave differently, even after seeing Leland and hearing his request yet again when he exits the Lodge to the waiting Diane. But even with endless possibilities in front of himself, he takes her 430 miles away, and tries again to fix things. This time ending up even further away from his original reality, those he knew, himself as a person- his behavior is not original Cooper, it is clearly some distillation of Cooper, Mr. C, and Dougie. He is good, but emotionless, impatient, and somewhat confused as to what exactly to do. He takes Carrie/Laura back to the place of her suffering and once again suffering wins. Because it ALWAYS will, because life is suffering.

We have been introduced first hand to the beginning of Agent Coopers journey though life and whatever there is after. And this will continue on and on until he accepts the reality of his own suffering and reaches nirvana. Whether this all "actually happened" or was a dream doesn't matter in a literal sense. In some way it all definitely happened. What is real? What is a dream? It's inconsequential as long as Cooper keeps missing the point. So should there be a season 4? There could be, but is it really necessary?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Troubbble » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:37 am

Elements I can't stop obsessing on, among MANY others:

- Diane seeing a double outside the motel after the 430-mile journey.

- Cooper's face superimposed over the proceedings in the sherriff's station for several minutes. And then of course, what he says.

- The Arm speculating "Is it the story of the little girl who lived down the lane?" (Particularly in light of seeing no more of Audrey.)

It all seems to be--as Andy would say--VERY IMPORTANT.

In the end, Cooper seems utterly lost, maybe for always. And yet he came to that time and place by correctly following the clues of the Fireman, just like in the original series. Deeply intrigued by the tragic hero interpretation of Cooper some have shared...but is it unthinkable that things could still be set right one day?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:39 am

Cooper and ... Jeffries ... are one and the same? I guess I wouldn't discount anytning anymore, as disoriented as the finale has left me.

BUT just to offer a differing opinion, Evil Cooper was also asking Jeffries about Judy. I thought maybe in his disembodied teapot steam state, Jeffries is now easily confused and didn't really distinguish between the two Coopers.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby sneakydave » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:40 am

I know this is from Part 17 but that thread seems to be getting ignored just now. Apologies if it has been posted elsewhere but I'm in work and haven't had a chance to read all 30-odd pages.

Am I correct in thinking that Cole's 'revelation' at the start of the episode is responsible for a MASSIVE ret-conning of the original series? We are now to believe that Cooper was there as a Blue Rose task-force agent and was working with Cole and Major Briggs all along to gain access to the Lodge to find 'Judy' as well as saving Laura?

If so, I have real difficulties with that.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Jerry Horne » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:42 am

It was about the bunny.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:42 am

TheGum wrote:I believe that despite Cooper's fascination with Buddhism, he was very far from enlightenment. His obsession with attachments- to the town of twin peaks, to Caroline, to Annie, to the FBI, Audrey, and yes, to Laura, particularly this concept of "fixing her death." Attachments are another cause of suffering- when you love someone, eventually they will cause you suffering, whether they hurt you in some way, or simply by dying, which will hurt you as well. All of these attachments led to what we could call his repeated undoing. The owl cave sign turning into an infinity loop is a warning. Jeffries is showing him the path he will go on if he continues this road. I believe that Judy IS suffering, and that she was inside Sarah Palmer- who as a character is the embodiment of suffering. That's the blackness inside of her. I also believe that Laura, in fact actually reached enlightenment, hence the white light inside of her, but that enlightenment can't exist in Cooper's reality because he is not ready or capable of understanding it yet.

Proof of this is in the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism:
1. The existence of suffering.
2. The causes of suffering.
3. The cessation of the causes of suffering
4. The path that leads to the cessation of the causes of suffering

We are introduced to the universal suffering we will all eventually endure, death, immediately in the first couple minutes of the pilot. Laura has endured that suffering and as the show progresses we find that she has endured much more than just that.
As the show moves on we learn about BOB and eventually her father and his role. We see this first hand in FWWM. We see her personal struggles with desire and suffering throughout the original series. Additionally in FWWM we are shown more of her inner turmoil in the first person. Ultimately as the plot moves forward we are introduced to the ring, and another possibility for Laura. A future where she doesn't submit to BOB and a future where she is free not only from the pain he and Leland inflicts on her, but from all of the suffering in her life. She sees in the ring that it is possible to end her suffering. In the conclusion of FWWM she takes the ring, and leaves behind all of her pain, suffering, and attachments on earth to a higher level of enlightenment. We see her rise at the end of the film to this next level of being. And she shows it directly to Cooper at the beginning of The Return.

Unfortunately, Cooper is still at odds with his own suffering and has an intense desire to fix the suffering in the world. When she shows him the light behind her face, she is spirited away from his reality because he cannot accept her peace. He still is obsessed with the idea of "making things right" and helping her whether she wants it of not. His first failure is at the end of season 2 with Caroline, Annie, and Earle. He fails again in FWWM when he tries to persuade Laura not to take the ring. He follows the advice of Leland (who, clearly is not a great person to listen to) in The Return, with the entire season essentially being a long journey back to Twin Peaks, where he fixes the immediate problems, but then quickly returns to the lodge to retcon Laura's death. Jeffries WARNS him he is on an infinite path and he disregards him. He saves Laura, but Judy, or suffering in general wins out, because saving her does nothing to rid the world of suffering, so this reality ends and he finds himself back in the lodge. Here he has another opportunity to behave differently, even after seeing Leland and hearing his request yet again when he exits the Lodge to the waiting Diane. But even with endless possibilities in front of himself, he takes her 430 miles away, and tries again to fix things. This time ending up even further away from his original reality, those he knew, himself as a person- his behavior is not original Cooper, it is clearly some distillation of Cooper, Mr. C, and Dougie. He is good, but emotionless, impatient, and somewhat confused as to what exactly to do. He takes Carrie/Laura back to the place of her suffering and once again suffering wins. Because it ALWAYS will, because life is suffering.

We have been introduced first hand to the beginning of Agent Coopers journey though life and whatever there is after. And this will continue on and on until he accepts the reality of his own suffering and reaches nirvana. Whether this all "actually happened" or was a dream doesn't matter in a literal sense. In some way it all definitely happened. What is real? What is a dream? It's inconsequential as long as Cooper keeps missing the point. So should there be a season 4? There could be, but is it really necessary?


Gorgeous post, I had to quote most of it.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:43 am

sneakydave wrote:Am I correct in thinking that Cole's 'revelation' at the start of the episode is responsible for a MASSIVE ret-conning of the original series? We are now to believe that Cooper was there as a Blue Rose task-force agent and was working with Cole and Major Briggs all along to gain access to the Lodge to find 'Judy' as well as saving Laura?


I don't think so. I think that came up incidentally during the course of the Palmer investigation, much like everything with Briggs/Bluebook.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:43 am

sneakydave wrote:I know this is from Part 17 but that thread seems to be getting ignored just now. Apologies if it has been posted elsewhere but I'm in work and haven't had a chance to read all 30-odd pages.

Am I correct in thinking that Cole's 'revelation' at the start of the episode is responsible for a MASSIVE ret-conning of the original series? We are now to believe that Cooper was there as a Blue Rose task-force agent and was working with Cole and Major Briggs all along to gain access to the Lodge to find 'Judy' as well as saving Laura?

If so, I have real difficulties with that.


No, I don't think that's the case. Cooper never met Briggs until his arrival in Twin Peaks. In what may be just about the only tie from the show to Mark Frost's book, Briggs, with approval from Douglas Milford, decided near the end of the original series to share with Cooper all he knew about Lodges and interdimensional travel and so forth.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby richsmith » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:43 am

Not sure if it has been written here yet, but the English translation of "Jiao dai" is "to explain." Make of that what you will.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:44 am

sewhite2000 wrote:Cooper and ... Jeffries ... are one and the same?


They share the same fate.

BUT just to offer a differing opinion, Evil Cooper was also asking Jeffries about Judy. I thought maybe in his disembodied teapot steam state, Jeffries is now easily confused and didn't really distinguish between the two Coopers.


And why should he? The Cooper who crosses over is a warped synthesis of both. Jeffries knows what is coming.
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