Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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Ashok
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Ashok » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:13 pm

Ashok wrote:
cgs027 wrote:Sorry if this has been answered (and it may have been across multiple posts), but just trying to summarize:

When we see Laura's corpse disappear from the waterfront, are most people interpreting that as Coop saved her life and she wasn't killed? So, she is still part of that "reality"? Or, is she gone from that reality, period -- and dropped into this Carrie Page alter-ego/skewed universe? Or, is the general consensus that there are multiple realities pushing against one and other here?

Not sure I've wrapped my head around what her corpse disappearing means in terms of where she is existing at that point.


My assumption was that everything in Season 1+2 always happened. Laura was always murdered. When Coop "saved" her, the original timeline remains intact in history but a sort of Timeline 2 where Laura lives was generated. But in this new timeline, Laura isn't living happily ever after in the future. She was whisked away by otherworldly forces and send to another alternate reality where Richard/Linda reside.


One thing I'm still really confused about tho is "where/when" was Cooper when he and Diane were were driving down the road but hadn't reached 430 miles? Had Cooper "returned" to the same time where he and Freddie previously killed BOB at the Sheriff station? And Laura still didn't exist in this future despite his actions in 1989 (not sure if this was still the timeline where people still believed she was murdered).
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby garethw » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:13 pm

The Brown Lodge wrote:When Sarah Palmer mauls that iconic photo with the glass bottle, this is a blatant metaphor that 'twin peaks' itself is being destroyed, right?


Interestingly, when she "mauls" it, the glass is smashed, but the picture itself seems to remain fully intact. Indestructible.
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Jacob
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Jacob » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:20 pm

Ashok wrote:
Ashok wrote:
cgs027 wrote:Sorry if this has been answered (and it may have been across multiple posts), but just trying to summarize:

When we see Laura's corpse disappear from the waterfront, are most people interpreting that as Coop saved her life and she wasn't killed? So, she is still part of that "reality"? Or, is she gone from that reality, period -- and dropped into this Carrie Page alter-ego/skewed universe? Or, is the general consensus that there are multiple realities pushing against one and other here?

Not sure I've wrapped my head around what her corpse disappearing means in terms of where she is existing at that point.


My assumption was that everything in Season 1+2 always happened. Laura was always murdered. When Coop "saved" her, the original timeline remains intact in history but a sort of Timeline 2 where Laura lives was generated. But in this new timeline, Laura isn't living happily ever after in the future. She was whisked away by otherworldly forces and send to another alternate reality where Richard/Linda reside.


One thing I'm still really confused about tho is "where/when" was Cooper when he and Diane were were driving down the road but hadn't reached 430 miles? Had Cooper "returned" to the same time where he and Freddie previously killed BOB at the Sheriff station? And Laura still didn't exist in this future despite his actions in 1989 (not sure if this was still the timeline where people still believed she was murdered).

When I saw it, I thought that Laura had been transfered -- like Andy or BadCoop when they're going to the White Lodge -- to the alternative timeline (where she's Carrie Page). And that's why Coop can't find her in TP world. Because here she's not dead, but yet she's not alive either...

Troubbble wrote:Intrigued by someone's suggestion that Dale never left the Lodge the entire show, until stepping out into Glastonbury Grove to meet Diane. Not sure how viable that could really be, but it's an interesting idea in light of the other things I'm currently turning over in my mind...

Yeah, it's like Cooper has looked/dreamed "The Return" when he opened the curtain where he saw Bad Coop driving his car (in Part 2 or 3, I don't remember).

But yeah, otherwise, I'm surprised to read so much people talking about a dream theory. Obviously, the ending is not in a dream but in an alternative timeline. So when people are talking about a dream, I guess they all think Coop never really left the Lodge in Part 2. Or am I missing something ?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby ShelleyAgedWell » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:21 pm

Might mean nothing but with where Cooper parks his car when arriving at the Palmers' house with Carrie, there are similarities between those scenes and the flashback scene from FWWM that was shown in Part 18 of The Return, also set outside the Palmers house.

Flashback from FWWM shown in Part 18 ofThe Return

Image

Cooper arriving with Carrie Page. The car is parked in the same spot outside the house with the staircase/balcony, which can be seen behind Carrie's head

Image

A different angle from Part 18, again showing the car parked outside the staircase/balcony house. Apologies for the quality of the photos. They're handmade screenshots of my stream on my laptop.

Image

The flashback scenes aren't different from the original FWWM scenes, as arguably the flashback scenes with Cooper hiding in the bushes while Laura talks to James are.

Image

It looks to me like the make of car is different in the FWWM scenes and the Return, but I believe others have pointed out that the car Cooper and Diane arrived at the motel with in not the same car that Cooper leaves the motel in (and it's that car that can he picks up Carrie Page in)

Perhaps parking in that spot, while the cars may vary, is part of Cooper's routine as he relives this moment again and again in vain attempts to save Laura?
Last edited by ShelleyAgedWell on Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby garethw » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:22 pm

I'm pretty embarrassed that when Coop went looking for "the other waitress", and went to #1516, I thought the woman who answered the door... was Shelly.

Ooops. :)
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby nonemoreblack » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:28 pm

I realise this is probably going to be a minority opinion, but did anyone else get the impression Diane was given a prominent role just because she's Laura Dern, and Lynch was looking for an excuse to work with her as much as possible? It doesn't sit well with me how the original characters were pretty much shoved to the side in favour of her.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby cgs027 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:28 pm

Jacob wrote:When I saw it, I thought that Laura had been transfered -- like Andy or BadCoop when they're going to the White Lodge -- to the alternative timeline (where she's Carrie Page). And that's why Coop can't find her in TP world. Because here she's not dead, but yet she's not alive either...


Yeah, I keep going back to the exact wording that Hastings used re:Briggs -- ie., how we has hiding from people and "hibernating". My take is that the Fireman (or someone else affiliated) hid her out in this alternate reality, and basically gave Coop the info to retrieve her. Except, unlike Briggs, she wasn't inherently aware of this. Why did they hide her out here, where Coop would be "lost", not sure... likely, to keep her away from Judy, but seems like they could have come up with something safer for Coop. Puzzled by this.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:28 pm

cgs027 wrote:
Troubbble wrote:Diane's appearance alone at Glastonbury Grove is incredibly interesting to me, too.

Edit: Had forgotten about Cooper's "curtain call" line. But the exclusion of Cole past that point--not to mention everyone else--still seems so strange.


Yep, where was Cole? Diane wouldn't have mentioned if some crazy sh*t happened to him preventing him from joining in the "curtain call"?


Presumably there was a whole lotta shaking in Bend, Oregon.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby FlyingSquirrel » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:30 pm

TheGum wrote:Why are the chairs upside down? What an awkward feeling that Judy's has!


It does have an awkward feeling, but I don't think the chairs being upside down has anything to do with it. Restaurant staff often put the chairs upside down on the tables in order to clean the floors.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby garethw » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:34 pm

Sheriff Truman's hat-jump when Mr. C shot at him was hilarious.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby garethw » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:38 pm

FlyingSquirrel wrote:
TheGum wrote:Why are the chairs upside down? What an awkward feeling that Judy's has!


It does have an awkward feeling, but I don't think the chairs being upside down has anything to do with it. Restaurant staff often put the chairs upside down on the tables in order to clean the floors.


Not usually in the middle of the day, though!

The diner had the same uncomfortable, oppressive vibe as Irene's diner in FWWM.

I keep wondering about the deep-fryer, if there was some kind of visual pun in it.

"Want to hear about our specials? Deep-fried 38 Specials."

/ I got nothing
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Cooperscoffeecup » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:41 pm

nonemoreblack wrote:I realise this is probably going to be a minority opinion, but did anyone else get the impression Diane was given a prominent role just because she's Laura Dern, and Lynch was looking for an excuse to work with her as much as possible? It doesn't sit well with me how the original characters were pretty much shoved to the side in favour of her.


I wondered why Diane had such a prominent role. It's the only character that really grated on me.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Cooperscoffeecup » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:46 pm

Ross wrote:So in the end, no surprise cast at all. What happened to whoever mtsi saw??


I thought the same thing. Last few parts I have been waiting for a surprise and there wasn't one.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby FlyingSquirrel » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:47 pm

cgs027 wrote:Sorry if this has been answered (and it may have been across multiple posts), but just trying to summarize:

When we see Laura's corpse disappear from the waterfront, are most people interpreting that as Coop saved her life and she wasn't killed? So, she is still part of that "reality"? Or, is she gone from that reality, period -- and dropped into this Carrie Page alter-ego/skewed universe? Or, is the general consensus that there are multiple realities pushing against one and other here?

Not sure I've wrapped my head around what her corpse disappearing means in terms of where she is existing at that point.


I'd say more like multiple realities pushing against each other. This may actually be one point where Frost's Secret History book is helpful - I remember some speculation in there to the effect that the supernatural/paranormal entities may not be entirely comprehensible to humans. If we assume that Cooper is making the mistake of trying to control forces that he can't, it makes a certain sense that these sorts of contradictions and puzzle pieces that won't fit are the result. Logically, Cooper messing with the history of Laura's murder shouldn't necessarily lead him into an alternate reality where his name is Richard and he has an abortive affair with Diane and Laura is a Texan named Carrie Page with a dead body in her living room...but screw around with these powers and this is the result. Carrie doesn't have to have shared Laura's actual experiences to have some sort of psychic connection to her. nor is Carrie any more real than Laura or vice versa, because the very concepts of memory and experience are malleable when these forces are involved.

I mentioned earlier that perhaps there's an element of Blue and Orange Morality to the behavior of the supernatural entities in Twin Peaks, despite the apparent affiliations of the Fireman with Good and BOB and Judy with Evil. The Tremonds and Chalfonts might well be Exhibit A of this - they keep turning up in the middle of these mysteries, but in a way that often creates more confusion and doesn't clearly line up with a White Lodge or Black Lodge agenda. Carrie's scream might be not only a recollection of Laura's experiences but also an expression of horror at the sheer incomprehensibility of her situation.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby TheGum » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:47 pm

Jacob wrote:Anyway, I really don't get the "Laura is the embodiment of nirvana" theory. I mean, come on : the girl was a prostitute and on coke even before she turned 18. Don't get me wrong, I know she was a victim. But I really can't see how we can make her an icon of detachment and nothingness. The girl has always been wild.
So I can't help myself to be really suspicious when we're talking of Laura like a "pure innocence" figure. Look at her when RichardCoop is coming to get her : there is a fucking dead body in her living room ! She's doomed to be surrounded by chaos. If she's the embodiment of Nirvana, well, no wonder Cooper and her are fucking lost god knows where. I've seen better Buddha.
I know I may be the only one here, but I still believe that Laura is maybe an incarnation of Judy. And maybe that's what she's telling Cooper during the final credits.


I don't believe Laura is the embodiment of nirvana, I believe she was created as an example, an extreme example of suffering to show how to reach nirvana. How to detach from that suffering. She has reached nirvana.
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