Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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Nikki Grace
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Nikki Grace » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:40 pm

There won't be a season four. There is a story to tell but the way I see it, it's too raw to go back to anytime soon. Ironically it needs another 25 year gap lol.
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ThumbsUp
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby ThumbsUp » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:41 pm

rocketsan22 wrote:
nonemoreblack wrote:What I'm finding difficult with the finale is separating my mind and my heart. I can appreciate all the interesting theories about what it means, but I can't switch off the feelings I had for these characters in the original Twin Peaks. The world is already going through a dark time, and Cooper has always been a ray of light. No matter how much I understand the point being made with his arc, it's hurtful for that Cooper to be taken away as soon as he was brought back. And I don't know if I'll ever be able to watch Audrey's old scenes the same way now that she has such a bleak fate. It's just too much nihilism for me to take right now. The theory of it being a new mystery the Fireman is guiding Cooper through is the one I'd most like to believe.

This!!!!!


Yeah, it added to my emotional distress last night checking Twitter and seeing crazy news about North Korea. We are living in a dark age, as Janey-E says, and I'm not going to get political or talk about current affairs on here, but it did make The Return's conclusion bleaker for me, especially when considering the historical references in Part 8.

But we have to take it for what it is and allow ourselves to process it and feel whatever emotions we feel and not judge them. That's what art is for and Twin Peaks is art. All I know is I'll spend more time thinking about this finale more than any other, and that it made me feel stronger emotions than any other TV finale ever has.

I love the finale the more that we talk about it, but for the record, my immediate reaction was disappointment - which I still kind of feel, but that's okay; Lynch and Frost wanted us to feel many different things.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Ashok » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:41 pm

rocketsan22 wrote:
nonemoreblack wrote:What I'm finding difficult with the finale is separating my mind and my heart. I can appreciate all the interesting theories about what it means, but I can't switch off the feelings I had for these characters in the original Twin Peaks. The world is already going through a dark time, and Cooper has always been a ray of light. No matter how much I understand the point being made with his arc, it's hurtful for that Cooper to be taken away as soon as he was brought back. And I don't know if I'll ever be able to watch Audrey's old scenes the same way now that she has such a bleak fate. It's just too much nihilism for me to take right now. The theory of it being a new mystery the Fireman is guiding Cooper through is the one I'd most like to believe.

This!!!!!


+1.

I want a Season 4. Not because I want answers, but I want to see the Fireman guide Richard/Cooper thru this darkness to rediscover his kinder identity. There seemed to be a central theme to The Return that our Cooper radiated warmth and was healing the world around him (i.e. the Mitchum Bros. fell in love with him, Anthony broke down in tears and couldn't poison him, Janey-E and Sonny Jim loved Dougie Coop, etc). I don't mind if Season 4 ends with a million questions but I just want to see Cooper's story end with him bringing light back into the world even if 12 more doors are opened in parallel.
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Agent327
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent327 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:52 pm

Nikki Grace wrote:There won't be a season four. There is a story to tell but the way I see it, it's too raw to go back to anytime soon. Ironically it needs another 25 year gap lol.


There wont be a season four because there is no financial foundation for it.

Unless we all start crowd funding. That's the only way it could happen.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby ThumbsUp » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:56 pm

Ashok wrote:
rocketsan22 wrote:
nonemoreblack wrote:What I'm finding difficult with the finale is separating my mind and my heart. I can appreciate all the interesting theories about what it means, but I can't switch off the feelings I had for these characters in the original Twin Peaks. The world is already going through a dark time, and Cooper has always been a ray of light. No matter how much I understand the point being made with his arc, it's hurtful for that Cooper to be taken away as soon as he was brought back. And I don't know if I'll ever be able to watch Audrey's old scenes the same way now that she has such a bleak fate. It's just too much nihilism for me to take right now. The theory of it being a new mystery the Fireman is guiding Cooper through is the one I'd most like to believe.

This!!!!!


+1.

I want a Season 4. Not because I want answers, but I want to see the Fireman guide Richard/Cooper thru this darkness to rediscover his kinder identity. There seemed to be a central theme to The Return that our Cooper radiated warmth and was healing the world around him (i.e. the Mitchum Bros. fell in love with him, Anthony broke down in tears and couldn't poison him, Janey-E and Sonny Jim loved Dougie Coop, etc). I don't mind if Season 4 ends with a million questions but I just want to see Cooper's story end with him bringing light back into the world even if 12 more doors are opened in parallel.


But would a fourth season really focus on the Coop character in such a way?

Someone else mentioned it in this thread (I think amid the fantastic discussion that brought in Buddhism/nirvana), but even if there's a season 4, we can probably expect more of the same: Coop will have to wrestle with and learn from his pain and suffering, or else he'll be doomed to repeat it, as the finale seems to imply. He couldn't help himself but to travel back in time to try and save Laura to play the hero and assuage his own pain and suffering for failing to prevent her death the first time around. It's his biggest flaw that gets explored over and over.

We saw this in the season 2 finale as well. Up til after the Laura Palmer mystery arc, Coop - whom I freaking love as a character - seemed to have virtually zero flaws or negative attributes.

But then we learned he had an affair with the woman married to his partner; he's wracked with guilt and pain and suffering for failing to protect Laura, Leland, Maddy, Caroline and Annie; he has a relentless savior complex. And then when he came face-to-face with his shadow self, he showed fear and ran, which is what Hawk said not to do.

Season 3 definitely re-established that Coop is universally beloved wherever he goes, but season 3 also explored all his colours and shadows and lights and darks, a key theme of Twin Peaks. And as we saw all season, especially in part 18, all those different dimensions or versions of a person are tied to their pain and suffering. They need to learn to accept that or else they'll never have a happy ending. Coop still hasn't learned that and I can't imagine season 4's central theme would be any different.
Last edited by ThumbsUp on Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lotjx2
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby lotjx2 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:56 pm

Agent327 wrote:
Nikki Grace wrote:There won't be a season four. There is a story to tell but the way I see it, it's too raw to go back to anytime soon. Ironically it needs another 25 year gap lol.


There wont be a season four because there is no financial foundation for it.

Unless we all start crowd funding. That's the only way it could happen.


I think people really underestimate Showtime getting their biggest subscriber numbers the day it premiered. Ratings are meaningless to some degree and them getting 500K is actually a good number for them. Most of the actors worked for scale and these was not a Game of Thrones or Penny Dreadful type of setting either. Plus, the merchandising. I have a the Mark Frost Book and the Dale Cooper Funko Pop with hopes of getting the rest at NYCC. I think ShowTime is more than happy about this.
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Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby yaxomoxay » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:59 pm

Agent327 wrote:There wont be a season four because there is no financial foundation for


And you know this... how?

At any rate CBS and Showtime disagree with you. It was a financial success, so there is enough financial foundation


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lotjx2
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby lotjx2 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:00 pm

ThumbsUp wrote:
Ashok wrote:
rocketsan22 wrote:This!!!!!


+1.

I want a Season 4. Not because I want answers, but I want to see the Fireman guide Richard/Cooper thru this darkness to rediscover his kinder identity. There seemed to be a central theme to The Return that our Cooper radiated warmth and was healing the world around him (i.e. the Mitchum Bros. fell in love with him, Anthony broke down in tears and couldn't poison him, Janey-E and Sonny Jim loved Dougie Coop, etc). I don't mind if Season 4 ends with a million questions but I just want to see Cooper's story end with him bringing light back into the world even if 12 more doors are opened in parallel.


But would a fourth season really focus on the Coop character in such a way?

Someone else mentioned it in this thread (I think amid the fantastic discussion that brought in Buddhism/nirvana), but even if there's a season 4, we can probably expect more of the same: Coop will have to wrestle with and learn from his pain and suffering, or else he'll be doomed to repeat it, as the finale seems to imply. He couldn't help himself but to travel back in time to try and save Laura to play the hero and assuage his own pain and suffering for failing to prevent her death the first time around. It's his biggest flaw that gets explored over and over.

We saw this in the season 2 finale as well. Up til after the Laura Palmer mystery arc, Coop - whom I freaking love as a character - seemed to have virtually zero flaws or negative attributes.

But then we learned he had an affair with the woman married to his partner; he's wracked with guilt and pain and suffering for failing to protect Laura, Leland, Maddy, Caroline and Annie; he has a relentless savior complex. And then when he came face-to-face with his shadow self, he showed fear and ran, which is what Hawk said not to do.

Season 3 definitely re-established that Coop is universally beloved wherever he goes, but season 3 also explored all his colours and shadows and lights and darks, a key theme of Twin Peaks. And as we saw all season, especially in part 18, all those different dimensions or versions of a person are tied to their pain and suffering. They need to learn to accept that or else they'll never have a happy ending. Coop still hasn't learned that and I can't imagine season 4's central theme would be any different.


Honestly, I think you explained why Season 4 would be different is that he breaks the cycle. He returns Laura FWWM and then appears a year later to help Twin Peaks who still have to deal the drug trade and whatever the fuck is in Sara Palmer. We have like several unanswered storylines from Ben's affair to Cole being in the Black Lodge Wating Room to what the fuck happened to Audrey?!!! There is enough stuff in Season 3 to do a quick 8 episode story arc.
lotjx2
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby lotjx2 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:00 pm

ThumbsUp wrote:
Ashok wrote:
rocketsan22 wrote:This!!!!!


+1.

I want a Season 4. Not because I want answers, but I want to see the Fireman guide Richard/Cooper thru this darkness to rediscover his kinder identity. There seemed to be a central theme to The Return that our Cooper radiated warmth and was healing the world around him (i.e. the Mitchum Bros. fell in love with him, Anthony broke down in tears and couldn't poison him, Janey-E and Sonny Jim loved Dougie Coop, etc). I don't mind if Season 4 ends with a million questions but I just want to see Cooper's story end with him bringing light back into the world even if 12 more doors are opened in parallel.


But would a fourth season really focus on the Coop character in such a way?

Someone else mentioned it in this thread (I think amid the fantastic discussion that brought in Buddhism/nirvana), but even if there's a season 4, we can probably expect more of the same: Coop will have to wrestle with and learn from his pain and suffering, or else he'll be doomed to repeat it, as the finale seems to imply. He couldn't help himself but to travel back in time to try and save Laura to play the hero and assuage his own pain and suffering for failing to prevent her death the first time around. It's his biggest flaw that gets explored over and over.

We saw this in the season 2 finale as well. Up til after the Laura Palmer mystery arc, Coop - whom I freaking love as a character - seemed to have virtually zero flaws or negative attributes.

But then we learned he had an affair with the woman married to his partner; he's wracked with guilt and pain and suffering for failing to protect Laura, Leland, Maddy, Caroline and Annie; he has a relentless savior complex. And then when he came face-to-face with his shadow self, he showed fear and ran, which is what Hawk said not to do.

Season 3 definitely re-established that Coop is universally beloved wherever he goes, but season 3 also explored all his colours and shadows and lights and darks, a key theme of Twin Peaks. And as we saw all season, especially in part 18, all those different dimensions or versions of a person are tied to their pain and suffering. They need to learn to accept that or else they'll never have a happy ending. Coop still hasn't learned that and I can't imagine season 4's central theme would be any different.


Honestly, I think you explained why Season 4 would be different is that he breaks the cycle. He returns Laura FWWM and then appears a year later to help Twin Peaks who still have to deal the drug trade and whatever the fuck is in Sara Palmer. We have like several unanswered storylines from Ben's affair to Cole being in the Black Lodge Wating Room to what the fuck happened to Audrey?!!! There is enough stuff in Season 3 to do a quick 8 episode story arc.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby TheGum » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:02 pm

For those hating my foray into Buddhism, which I still like due to previous foreshadowing in the first season, here is a similar, but much more literal interpretation you may appreciate. I like this as well. It's extremely similar, just embraces the good vs. evil massive world view introduced in part 8 rather than suffering vs. enlightenment

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/09/twin-peaks-ending-explained-answers-part-18-finale-david-lynch-1201872863/#utm_medium=social&utm_source=email&utm_campaign=social_bar&utm_content=bottom_amp&utm_id=120187286
I'm back in style!
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Ashok » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:04 pm

ThumbsUp wrote:
Ashok wrote:
rocketsan22 wrote:This!!!!!


+1.

I want a Season 4. Not because I want answers, but I want to see the Fireman guide Richard/Cooper thru this darkness to rediscover his kinder identity. There seemed to be a central theme to The Return that our Cooper radiated warmth and was healing the world around him (i.e. the Mitchum Bros. fell in love with him, Anthony broke down in tears and couldn't poison him, Janey-E and Sonny Jim loved Dougie Coop, etc). I don't mind if Season 4 ends with a million questions but I just want to see Cooper's story end with him bringing light back into the world even if 12 more doors are opened in parallel.


But would a fourth season really focus on the Coop character in such a way?


Well that's one thing I'm confused by though. Has Coop really failed? Is everything perhaps still going to plan? Maybe Cooper still falls short in a Season 4 but I'd like to know what the Fireman's endgame is for Agent Cooper. He seemed to want Cooper to pursue after Laura as Richard once BOB was stopped.
"Whatever happened, happened." -Daniel Faraday
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:07 pm

I don't think Cooper can break the cycle. Not alone, anyway. I think it would have to be up to Laura, or others. Coop can be there but if there's one lesson from the end of both Season 2 and The Return it's that he is fundamentally flawed.
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby rocketsan22 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:10 pm

Agent327 wrote:
Nikki Grace wrote:There won't be a season four. There is a story to tell but the way I see it, it's too raw to go back to anytime soon. Ironically it needs another 25 year gap lol.


There wont be a season four because there is no financial foundation for it.

Unless we all start crowd funding. That's the only way it could happen.

This may be the most ridiculous thing I have read this week...
lotjx2
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby lotjx2 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:14 pm

N. Needleman wrote:I don't think Cooper can break the cycle. Not alone, anyway. I think it would have to be up to Laura, or others. Coop can be there but if there's one lesson from the end of both Season 2 and The Return it's that he is fundamentally flawed.


Well, he has Laura, so he can pull it off.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby FlyingSquirrel » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:22 pm

rocketsan22 wrote:
nonemoreblack wrote:What I'm finding difficult with the finale is separating my mind and my heart. I can appreciate all the interesting theories about what it means, but I can't switch off the feelings I had for these characters in the original Twin Peaks. The world is already going through a dark time, and Cooper has always been a ray of light. No matter how much I understand the point being made with his arc, it's hurtful for that Cooper to be taken away as soon as he was brought back. And I don't know if I'll ever be able to watch Audrey's old scenes the same way now that she has such a bleak fate. It's just too much nihilism for me to take right now. The theory of it being a new mystery the Fireman is guiding Cooper through is the one I'd most like to believe.

This!!!!!


I agree, it is kind of discouraging to leave on this note. Even being in the Lodge and helping to guide Laura to her angel would have been a more satisfying conclusion than Cooper not knowing what year it is and Laura screaming. I appreciate intellectually the point that, I think, is being made - that trying to harness the supernatural forces at work for something as big as rewriting history is doomed to backfire somehow, and that some of what the Lodge denizens do just defies human understanding. But Cooper is a character who stands out for his fundamental decency and honor in this age of real-life upheavals and entertainment populated by so many murky anti-heroes. Sure, he's still a flawed human being, but it seemed like he was repeating his error from Episode 29 here (i.e. thinking he had more control over these strange forces than he does) - if he was going to make a big mistake at some point in this series, he could have at least learned from his past and made a *new* big mistake. Hell, I wouldn't have even complained if they'd gone in the direction that I thought they might be going, with Cooper having to sacrifice his life to allow Dougie to live again. But Team Idealism has been taking a beating both IRL and in fiction lately and this did feel kind of like another win for Team Cynicism.

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