Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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Dougie Cooper
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Dougie Cooper » Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:33 am

"Cooper takes Laura home (albeit as Richard and Carrie), and what happens? That is no longer Laura's home. Tremonds own it."

As a side note. I often wondered the implications for the Palmer home now that "it" is in the home. In FWWM, we are to understand that the Tremonds inhabited a trailer (displaced the former residents?), then later, when Carl took Cooper to the trailer, it was gone. But where, and how? Vanished into another dimension perhaps? Could the same fate have befallen the Palmer home?

In other words, the last time Cooper closed in on a Tremond residence, it disappeared. Did history repeat itself?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:02 am

Well, this time around Cooper met them. In FWWM, they were gone when he arrived iirc, and now he has met them face to face, so I guess the history did not really repeat itself. On the other hand, they were called Chalfonts in FWWM, and Alice Tremond said they acquired the property from Chalfonts, so looking at it from this angle, you are technically correct, the history repeated itself, Chalfonts were twice out of reach for Cooper.

Chalfonts/Tremonds are lodge denizens, that seems to be clear, and also whose side they are on. Fireman incarnates Laura so Cooper can take her to Sarah, and the other team shuffles the cards in the deck again. They are "duking it out", and Cooper and Laura are caught in the middle. As the old saying goes, when elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:31 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Jasper wrote:
eyeboogers wrote:
Reindeer, do you have any theories as why they might be driving that same car?


Well, we have Kyle's outright denial of Mr. C being a part of Cooper in part 18. So, either that's really the case, or Lynch just directed Kyle without mentioning it. I think the direction, according to Kyle, was that he was Cooper, but just a little harder.

He seems the most alien at Judy's, walking around with his gun pointed out for no reason and placing the seized guns in the fryolater. At Carrie's home, and especially at (what's supposed to be) the Palmer house, he seems a lot more like regular Cooper.


It’s pretty well established that Lynch and Kyle have an extreme short-hand and Lynch doesn’t overexplain much. Kyle may have just given what Lynch needed based on a few words, without Lynch having to say too much.

I do think the doppelganger is reincorporated into Cooper after it burns up in the Red Room. And I think that car is a bad omen that Cooper is on the wrong trail. Not that he’s evil, but that he is as misguided in his mission as the doppel was, albeit in a different way.


I'm 100% with Reindeer on this. If Lynch told Kyle that he is simply Cooper, just a little harder, I think it can be inferred, whether it was explicitly stated or not, that the reason for that is because Mr. C has been reincorporated into Cooper. That is, after all, one of the central ideas of the piece ever since the original series, and even Frost said it was central to Cooper's journey in The Return in interviews after the series aired, referring to the assimilation of the shadow self and Cooper's previous failure to do so.

However, there is a second (and third) option, which is that Cooper is harder not because he assimilated Mr. C, but because he lost Dougie when he recreated him (as we had discussed not long ago). Or because he did both, of course.

The crux of these second/third options is actually outlined by Boske, and is something that I've brought up a few times.

boske wrote:As far as Mr. C, while he had the ring on his finger, we do not see his corpse in the lodge like we saw in case of Ray Monroe, we only see the ring on the lodge floor in part 17, iirc. We see Mr. C burning a bit later, but we do not know if he is to keep burning for eternity, or if he as a shadow has somehow been integrated into Cooper. And that may be very, very important. Here is why.

If we are to look at part 17 as an ecranisation of the Jungian individuation process, we can identify:
[list]
[*] Assimilation of the shadow, where Cooper is supposed to assimilate Mr. C, that is "merge" with his shadow; This did not really happen (that I can see), did it? Mr. C was dead before Cooper arrived, and we could therefore even question here if it was the Fireman that prevented this merger, as he instructed Andy to dispose of Mr. C. Did he really help Cooper or not?

At the end of part 17, Cooper would have thus become integrated, the Self, and then set to incarnate as Richard in part 18. But was he really integrated? It does not look that way to me, as the first step was seemingly never completed, as his shadow keeps on burning in part 18, after his supposed unification. He never really faced his own doppelgänger. If he had tried to do so, would Bob have obliterated him? If so, then he was not ready for it, but if not, we are then to question Fireman's motives. Was he trying to help Cooper, knowing that he was not yet ready for it, or was it to keep him from successfully integrating for some other reasons?


I've always questioned what is really going on in the entirety of the green glove sequence, including both Mr. C's and Bob's annihilation at the hands of people other than Cooper. Is the green glove sequence simply a way for Cooper to not have to engage with his shadow? The expectations of confrontation that would occur in literally any and every other work of fiction are thoroughly subverted in this, where our hero shows up after his counterpart is defeated. They never share a single scene together. (I've also pondered that this is because they are the same person, and therefore cannot exist in the same area at any time, which makes this a moot point since that proves that they are simply one and the same...which they are, of course, as I believe that is central to any reading of The Return.) If this is indeed the case that the point of the scene is to show that Cooper is still failing to confront and assimilate his shadow self, then it is possible that Richard/Cooper has not actually assimilated Mr. C.

My personal belief, however, remains that he has. That Richard is the true Cooper, the one and only, fully assimilated, light and dark. I think all other evidence points to that being the case even if the evidence of the green glove sequence brings up some doubts. For example, I think that Mr. C's season-long avoidance of Cooper is more telling, as though Mr. C is the one who is scared of being in the same room as Cooper, whereas the Fireman's aid in helping Andy/Lucy to defeat Mr. C is simply more a foretelling of what is going or needs to happen before Cooper arrives, and it is of course Cooper himself who puts the ring on Mr. C, avoiding the Bob-assisted resuscitation, causing his banishment from earth and his burning in the lodge. Following that train of thought, I think it's logical to assume that Mr. C is then assimilated into Cooper. Also, as far as Mr. C burning, he burns at the beginning of Part 18. Cooper steps out of the lodge to meet Diane after that. It could very well be that he integrates some time after we see the burning and before he officially exits the lodge - that the first time we see Richard is when Diane does. That's what it seems to me, anyway.

I also like how the Lincoln Town Car fits into the notion as Cooper containing Mr. C as per Boske's outline of cars as metaphors for bodies, including the idea that Cooper may be on the wrong path. No part of that journey in that car ever seems right. The simplest explanation for the same car, by the way, is that it is supposed to give you this feeling that personas are merging alongside a vague sense of deja vu despite the fact that things are literally changing.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:31 pm

LateReg wrote:I've always questioned what is really going on in the entirety of the green glove sequence, including both Mr. C's and Bob's annihilation at the hands of people other than Cooper. Is the green glove sequence simply a way for Cooper to not have to engage with his shadow?

That's what it feels like to me. And all orchestrated by the Fireman whose motives are not clear to us.

LateReg wrote:The expectations of confrontation that would occur in literally any and every other work of fiction are thoroughly subverted in this, where our hero shows up after his counterpart is defeated.

Yes, and this may have not only subverted our expectations but Cooper personally, which is an interesting thought. :-)

Anyway, I think we'd have to peruse several of Jung's works, especially the one on archetypes, to better sense what happened in part 17, I somehow still think he did not integrate, but at least we seem to have an idea what might be going on there. What also seems to be clear is that something did not quite work the way it was supposed to in part 18 between Dale and Diane

But I wanted to mention something else here, going back to what Dougie Cooper wrote just earlier. We have looked at "Alice Tremond" from the perspective of Tremonds as we know them from the original two seasons and FWWM.

Another way of looking at Tremonds/Chalfronts may have to do with what we saw in part 3, with that vast ocean, and then in part 8 with the Fireman at the top of the mountain rising out of that very ocean.

It is a contrast of two civilisations in a sense, a chaotic one, highly nomadic in nature, where things are moving, are in constant flux, where your sail through life and anchor at different ports (which is exactly what we saw with Chalfont trailer in FWWM). Remember that "mother" is banging at the door in waves in part 3, just like the experiment is doing the same against the glass in part 1. Contrast that to a simple sedentary culture, where things are rather fixed and people do not move that often, are stationary, as if at the top of a mountain where ocean waves cannot reach you. Lunar versus Solar, oceans against the land, chaos versus order, darkness versus light, Twin Peaks in a nutshell.

Thus Cooper may not have erred (only) in time ("what year is it?"), but in place ("where are they now?").
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:55 pm

boske wrote:
LateReg wrote:I've always questioned what is really going on in the entirety of the green glove sequence, including both Mr. C's and Bob's annihilation at the hands of people other than Cooper. Is the green glove sequence simply a way for Cooper to not have to engage with his shadow?

That's what it feels like to me. And all orchestrated by the Fireman whose motives are not clear to us.

LateReg wrote:The expectations of confrontation that would occur in literally any and every other work of fiction are thoroughly subverted in this, where our hero shows up after his counterpart is defeated.

Yes, and this may have not only subverted our expectations but Cooper personally, which is an interesting thought. :-)


Yeah, I’m always one for questioning whether the Fireman’s motives are as pure as they seem. But I’m not sure I’d ever teased out this aspect of the show as well as you two have here. Hawk makes such a big deal in season 2 about how you have to confront your shadow self before achieving perfection. Is Part 17 not just narrative subversion, but in fact the Fireman robbing Cooper of the ability to prove himself? True, by implanting the vision in Andy, the Fireman allows Frank’s life to be saved. But perhaps Frank was meant to die so that Cooper could overcome his dark side and purify himself. Instead, he never gets the chance, and so attempts to enter the White Lodge before he is ready. Is the Fireman setting Cooper up all along?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:23 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Yeah, I’m always one for questioning whether the Fireman’s motives are as pure as they seem. But I’m not sure I’d ever teased out this aspect of the show as well as you two have here. Hawk makes such a big deal in season 2 about how you have to confront your shadow self before achieving perfection. Is Part 17 not just narrative subversion, but in fact the Fireman robbing Cooper of the ability to prove himself? True, by implanting the vision in Andy, the Fireman allows Frank’s life to be saved. But perhaps Frank was meant to die so that Cooper could overcome his dark side and purify himself. Instead, he never gets the chance, and so attempts to enter the White Lodge before he is ready. Is the Fireman setting Cooper up all along?

Fireman has been traditionally portrayed as a positive force in TP universe, I do not think that has changed. We have not yet seen his doppelgänger, is there one? That might explain a few things, and Lynch and Frost have not offered any hints here that I know. And make of it what you will, but he is the only supernatural entity that has a companion, that is very interesting. That being said, he seems to still let Cooper be tempted, and may have some motives that are not strictly aligned with Cooper's, why would he not.

As far as S3, it seems clear that he and Dido stand behind Laura's incarnation, that he does send Cooper on some sort of a quest, or at least endorses that quest initially. He then not only uses Andy and Lucy to subvert our expectations (that trick got old by the time S3 progressed), but also either assist and/or subvert Cooper's efforts, ultimately preventing Cooper from confronting his shadow (in my opinion). And the elephant in the room is his (Fireman's) move to toss Mr. C to Twin Peaks after that brief moment of captivity. Had Fireman wanted to ensure Cooper and Mr. C met each other, he would have released Mr. C by the time Cooper had already arrived at the station and was getting out of his car. This way it seems that he really wanted to have Lucy dispose of him before Cooper got there, as he controlled when Mr C would get there. It is not as if Mr. C got there on his own and Cooper had a flat tire while driving and he needed Lucy to patch things up for Cooper.

Regarding Lucy and Andy in S3, their arcs seem stale. And we have their contrast and parallel in Chantal and Hutch. It was Chantal who was supposed to take Cooper out, with Hutch's help, and yet Lucy shot Mr. C, with Andy assisting. And tying into that last post of mine, are they not representative of these two poles, dynamic against the static? Chantal and Hutch are highly mobile, have no permanent home, while Andy and Lucy are fixed in TP and do not seem to venture out. And Lucy's fear and non-understanding of cell phones ties into this aspect of mobility, she represents something sedentary and thus opposed to a nomadic nature of Chantal. And all this makes it rather ironic that Mr. C was kicked out of the Dutchman's via land line, and that Richard's demise affected cellular network availability.

Edit: On the static or sedentary aspect of Lucy and Andy, we also have another clue: they are buying a chair, not a car. What do we make of Wally Brando here then? He is very mobile, unlike his parent(s). Following this train of thought, he is more likely to be Dick Tremeyne's son.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:08 am

boske wrote:Fireman has been traditionally portrayed as a positive force in TP universe, I do not think that has changed.


I like Mark’s idea in TSHoTP that the spirits can’t really be read as “good” or “bad” since their morals and goals are likely completely different from ours and beyond our comprehension. It may seem like the Fireman is interested in helping humanity, but I imagine that’s only because it benefits whatever his own agenda is. Also, remember that in Episode 14 he draws Cooper to the Roadhouse while Maddy is being murdered elsewhere.

I also think of how Mike and MfAP seemed like relatively benevolent entities in the original series, only to become much more sinister in FWWM with the introduction of garmonbozia. Imagine how wonderfully terrifying it would be to see the Fireman take a comparable turn in S4.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:28 am

Is there something else that we see in S3 that may explain a few things? It looks like it, we have this:

Right Hand.jpg
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Left Hand.jpg
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:55 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I like Mark’s idea in TSHoTP that the spirits can’t really be read as “good” or “bad” since their morals and goals are likely completely different from ours and beyond our comprehension. It may seem like the Fireman is interested in helping humanity, but I imagine that’s only because it benefits whatever his own agenda is. Also, remember that in Episode 14 he draws Cooper to the Roadhouse while Maddy is being murdered elsewhere.

That is an excellent point, there is so much he can do, but some things are for Cooper alone to solve. Did Giant know who killed Laura or that Maddy is going to get murdered? Yes, but it is not his to resolve or prevent, there is a certain autonomy granted to humans here, and he is respecting that. If not, then the whole edifice would come crashing down.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Pöllö » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:20 am

boske wrote:Is there something else that we see in S3 that may explain a few things? It looks like it, we have this:

Right Hand.jpg

Left Hand.jpg

The hand appearing in Sarah's face is actually Laura's from FWWM.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:49 am

Pöllö wrote:
boske wrote:Is there something else that we see in S3 that may explain a few things? It looks like it, we have this:

Right Hand.jpg

Left Hand.jpg

The hand appearing in Sarah's face is actually Laura's from FWWM.

Yes, indeed. And with a hypertrophied ring finger. Some people have identified the mysterious smile to be the one from the famous Laura's photo. FWWM showed Laura to be a rather complex figure.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:53 am

On a lighter note, having completed the "part a day" rewatch first time after the original run, having seen part 18, I am trying hard to remember who Chip and Harvey were. :lol:
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:16 am

LateReg wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:That is such a disturbing sex scene. This version of Cooper doesn’t seem to take joy out of anything. That scene is a nice study in contrasts with the Janey-E sex scene in Part 10. Diane and Janey-E are sisters (however literally you want to take that), and both scenes involve writhing female backs, but Cooper’s reactions are night and day. The Cooper we see in Part 18 seems almost as comatose as our beloved DougieCoop, but instead of arm-flopping joy, he just sits there stone-faced (it sort of makes me laugh in a dark way that he’s playing with her breast completely joylessly). I also think back on his warmth and tenderness in the love scene with Annie in Episode 28 as another contrast. The Cooper we get here is pretty chilling.

I'm glad you brought this up, because I would have forgotten again. What's with that nipple fondle anyway? That's another of the most fascinating mini-moments for me. Why does Lynch cut to that, a totally separate shot, for such a short amount of time? I'm not interested in an "Old man Lynch is a gratuitous pervert" take on the scene, obviously, and that's certainly not my view of it. I really want to know if there's something to the editing and film language because it really stands out.

What we see at that moment is some kind of actualisation of what that trash-talking trucker (T3 :lol:) told Sarah in the Elk bar in part 14, about fondling and the rest of it. And the parallel is here: Diane is almost impressing something onto Cooper's face with her palms, a cast or mold of something (her mask/persona?), and remember that Sarah/mother/experiment removes her mask before slaying the poor trucker, so this could represent Cooper's failure, submersion, or even death on another level, most likely spiritual, mimicking the poor trucker's demise. About the writhing backs, there is something reptilian about those scenes, as if it is alluding to a snake-like movement involving the spine.

By the way, that T-shift is hilarious, hopefully one can get it somewhere, it is just too funny. No matter what, Lynch always had a master touch at casting people, this scene from part 14 was no exception.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:23 am

boske wrote:
Pöllö wrote:
boske wrote:Is there something else that we see in S3 that may explain a few things? It looks like it, we have this:

Right Hand.jpg

Left Hand.jpg

The hand appearing in Sarah's face is actually Laura's from FWWM.

Yes, indeed. And with a hypertrophied ring finger. Some people have identified the mysterious smile to be the one from the famous Laura's photo. FWWM showed Laura to be a rather complex figure.


Interesting. I mean, I knew this theory about the smile but had missed the hand, which definitely looks like Laura's. But as I'm sure you know, there is the Judy "horn" visible for a split second on the top of the head inside of Sarah. Very unique commingling of elements that compose Sarah's fractured state.

What we see at that moment is some kind of actualisation of what that trash-talking trucker (T3 :lol:) told Sarah in the Elk bar in part 14, about fondling and the rest of it. And the parallel is here: Diane is almost impressing something onto Cooper's face with her palms, a cast or mold of something (her mask/persona?), and remember that Sarah/mother/experiment removes her mask before slaying the poor trucker, so this could represent Cooper's failure, submersion, or even death on another level, most likely spiritual, mimicking the poor trucker's demise. About the writhing backs, there is something reptilian about those scenes, as if it is alluding to a snake-lie movement involving the spine.


I like this as well. Perhaps Diane is attempting to not only block out her own trauma by covering Cooper's face, but also trying to keep him from removing his face to reveal the blackness within?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:30 am

LateReg wrote:
boske wrote:
Pöllö wrote:The hand appearing in Sarah's face is actually Laura's from FWWM.

Yes, indeed. And with a hypertrophied ring finger. Some people have identified the mysterious smile to be the one from the famous Laura's photo. FWWM showed Laura to be a rather complex figure.


Interesting. I mean, I knew this theory about the smile but had missed the hand, which definitely looks like Laura's. But as I'm sure you know, there is the Judy "horn" visible for a split second on the top of the head inside of Sarah. Very unique commingling of elements that compose Sarah's fractured state.

What we see at that moment is some kind of actualisation of what that trash-talking trucker (T3 :lol:) told Sarah in the Elk bar in part 14, about fondling and the rest of it. And the parallel is here: Diane is almost impressing something onto Cooper's face with her palms, a cast or mold of something (her mask/persona?), and remember that Sarah/mother/experiment removes her mask before slaying the poor trucker, so this could represent Cooper's failure, submersion, or even death on another level, most likely spiritual, mimicking the poor trucker's demise. About the writhing backs, there is something reptilian about those scenes, as if it is alluding to a snake-lie movement involving the spine.


I like this as well. Perhaps Diane is attempting to not only block out her own trauma by covering Cooper's face, but also trying to keep him from removing his face to reveal the blackness within?

Who knows, maybe down the road we catch some fish, as Lynch would have it, and figure out more. There is something tantric about that scene, and it does seem to tie into TSHoTP. There are also some hints here involving polarity: first with Naido (a precursor to Diane) flipping the switch and changing polarity, and then we see something similar in the car when Cooper and Diane cross that 430 mile threshold, some sort of a permutation at work.

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