Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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KyleRickards
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby KyleRickards » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:51 am

N. Needleman wrote:Oh, one more reason I think we can assume the original timeline is fine: In 18, before Cooper and Diane cross over, Dougie II goes home to Janey-E and Sonny Jim, who clearly have been waiting on his return just as they were in 16. Without Laura's death and the subsequent investigation there is no place in the world for any iteration of Dougie Jones to ever exist.


So Janey-E and Sonny Jim are gone from the normal timeline as well?


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lotjx2
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby lotjx2 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:58 am

KyleRickards wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:Oh, one more reason I think we can assume the original timeline is fine: In 18, before Cooper and Diane cross over, Dougie II goes home to Janey-E and Sonny Jim, who clearly have been waiting on his return just as they were in 16. Without Laura's death and the subsequent investigation there is no place in the world for any iteration of Dougie Jones to ever exist.


So Janey-E and Sonny Jim are gone from the normal timeline as well?


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No, that timeline still exits. Ok, its like this.

TimeLine A has everything we have seen from FWWM til really Dale, Diane and Cole going into the Black Loge. That world still exists and will continue to exist.

TimeLine B has the question is where is Laura Palmer. The only thing we get in that world is seeing Laura's body disappear. That world will have minor changes for the most part possibly even major ones, we don't know.

Timeline C is where all the names have been changed and is actually the real world, you and I sadly live in.

Timeline D is the hub. Where people can move in and out of it. This is where I believe Audrey is as well as the Roadhouse. People from all the timelines can go in there and interact, but they end up going back to their own timeline. I believe when Laura screams at the end Dale and Laura are transported there.

At least that is my theory, because Judy maybe to crossover worlds, but giving her the ability to create new timelines is fucking stupid.
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powerleftist
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby powerleftist » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:45 am

That is some serious Crisis-on-Infinite-Earths-shit for a show like Twin Peaks.
lotjx2
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby lotjx2 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:52 am

powerleftist wrote:That is some serious Crisis-on-Infinite-Earths-shit for a show like Twin Peaks.


And much like Crisis, a bit needless.
lotjx2
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby lotjx2 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:52 am

powerleftist wrote:That is some serious Crisis-on-Infinite-Earths-shit for a show like Twin Peaks.


And much like Crisis, a bit needless.
lotjx2
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby lotjx2 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:56 am

lotjx2 wrote:
KyleRickards wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:Oh, one more reason I think we can assume the original timeline is fine: In 18, before Cooper and Diane cross over, Dougie II goes home to Janey-E and Sonny Jim, who clearly have been waiting on his return just as they were in 16. Without Laura's death and the subsequent investigation there is no place in the world for any iteration of Dougie Jones to ever exist.


So Janey-E and Sonny Jim are gone from the normal timeline as well?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


No, that timeline still exits. Ok, its like this.

TimeLine A has everything we have seen from FWWM til really Dale, Diane and Cole going into the Black Loge. That world still exists and will continue to exist.

TimeLine B has the question Where is Laura Palmer. The only thing we get in that world is seeing Laura's body disappear. That world will have minor changes for the most part possibly even major ones, we don't know.

Timeline C is where all the names have been changed and is actually the real world, you and I sadly live in.

Timeline D is the hub. Where people can move in and out of it. This is where I believe Audrey is as well as the Roadhouse. People from all the timelines can go in there and interact, but they end up going back to their own timeline. I believe when Laura screams at the end Dale and Laura are transported there.

At least that is my theory, because Judy maybe able to crossover worlds, but giving her the ability to create new timelines is fucking stupid.
Rhodes
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Rhodes » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:28 am

I don''t know if this theory is already put forward in this thread.

But my take on the Freddie-plot (one of the view plots that I really didn't like, I thought the Return was pretty much perfect besides Freddie):

WHY does Lynch introduce such a lame superhero-character that can kill off BOB with a punch? Why go for such an underwhelming end of the epic character of BOB?

The answer is that the Freddie-plot is not lame at all, but the ultimate horror. It prepares us for the very worst. That our beloved Cooper, isn't really a superhero, but a flawed human being (under the name of Richard) and that our beloved world of Twin Peaks doesn't exist. It's not just a girl that is raped and murdered this time around, but an entire fantasy-world.

The dissapointed-group more or less feels the same (Lynch shits all over us!!!), but I'd say that the emergence of Richard (as forshadowed by Freddie) was the only thing that could top BOB as the supreme scare.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby KyleRickards » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:52 am

lotjx2 wrote:
KyleRickards wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:Oh, one more reason I think we can assume the original timeline is fine: In 18, before Cooper and Diane cross over, Dougie II goes home to Janey-E and Sonny Jim, who clearly have been waiting on his return just as they were in 16. Without Laura's death and the subsequent investigation there is no place in the world for any iteration of Dougie Jones to ever exist.


So Janey-E and Sonny Jim are gone from the normal timeline as well?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


No, that timeline still exits. Ok, its like this.

TimeLine A has everything we have seen from FWWM til really Dale, Diane and Cole going into the Black Loge. That world still exists and will continue to exist.

TimeLine B has the question is where is Laura Palmer. The only thing we get in that world is seeing Laura's body disappear. That world will have minor changes for the most part possibly even major ones, we don't know.

Timeline C is where all the names have been changed and is actually the real world, you and I sadly live in.

Timeline D is the hub. Where people can move in and out of it. This is where I believe Audrey is as well as the Roadhouse. People from all the timelines can go in there and interact, but they end up going back to their own timeline. I believe when Laura screams at the end Dale and Laura are transported there.

At least that is my theory, because Judy maybe to crossover worlds, but giving her the ability to create new timelines is fucking stupid.

Thank you...


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BHell
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby BHell » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:12 am

Rhodes wrote:I don''t know if this theory is already put forward in this thread.

But my take on the Freddie-plot (one of the view plots that I really didn't like, I thought the Return was pretty much perfect besides Freddie):

WHY does Lynch introduce such a lame superhero-character that can kill off BOB with a punch? Why go for such an underwhelming end of the epic character of BOB?

The answer is that the Freddie-plot is not lame at all, but the ultimate horror. It prepares us for the very worst. That our beloved Cooper, isn't really a superhero, but a flawed human being (under the name of Richard) and that our beloved world of Twin Peaks doesn't exist. It's not just a girl that is raped and murdered this time around, but an entire fantasy-world.

The dissapointed-group more or less feels the same (Lynch shits all over us!!!), but I'd say that the emergence of Richard (as forshadowed by Freddie) was the only thing that could top BOB as the supreme scare.


My take on Freddie and his glove: Twin Peaks is still a parody on contemporary TV. But instead of mainly soaps and sitcoms, our current tv landscape is mostly defined by high profile drama (Braking Bad), stuff inspired by Twin Peaks and The X-Files (True Detective) and sadly an ever-growing array of rather cringy superhero series. Freddie could be a subtle comment on that.

As for why it was him to defeat Bob: Why not him? And besides, the Fireman, Andy, Lucy and even Cooper played their part in it.

Regarding the rest of your theory: While the Twin Peaks world could be Richard's dream, that does not mean it's any less real. An indication for the "Twin Peaks World's" ongoing existence within Richard's timeline/dimension/zone is, that the Palmer house belongs to the Tremonds/Chalfonts. So, unless Richard knew this beforehand and incorporated those specific names into his dream ...
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Saturn's child
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Saturn's child » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:38 am

BHell wrote:My take on Freddie and his glove: Twin Peaks is still a parody on contemporary TV. But instead of mainly soaps and sitcoms, our current tv landscape is mostly defined by high profile drama (Braking Bad), stuff inspired by Twin Peaks and The X-Files (True Detective) and sadly an ever-growing array of rather cringy superhero series. Freddie could be a subtle comment on that.


Agreed. I'll also add that TP (& Lynch) has always played with stereotypes; in the Return we see the Gangsters with Hearts of Gold (Mitchums), the Prostitute with a Heart of Gold (Jade), the Kid with a Superhero pre-destiny (Freddie), the Badass (Mr C), the Good Guy (Coop), the Housewife (Janey-E), the Kid (Sonny Jim), the Horny Couple (Sam & Tracey), the Drugged-Out Mother (a recent stereotype), etc, etc. In the original we had the Girl in Trouble (Laura), the Biker (James), the Bad Girl (Audrey), the Love Interest (Annie), the Bad Boy (Bobby), the Stand Up Military Father (Garland), the Oddball (Margaret), etc, etc. Al(Strobel)beit, they all get detailed in an interesting way, they become unique within their respective stereotype.
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Saturn's child
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Saturn's child » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:13 am

claaa7 wrote:"Hawk... Something is missing and it has to do with Special Agent Dale Cooper"

yeah, you can say that again.. Laura is certainly missing and it sure as hell has to do with Special Agent Dale Cooper.

This leads him to find three pages of Laura's secret diary.. but take note of the fact that we are alerted to that "THERE'S STILL ONE PAGE MISSING" (Carrie Page that is?). the diary pages was then not at all a reveal but a clue.


Interesting! I'm keen to see what the earlier parts of the Return yield after viewing the finale.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Drgarage » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:24 am

Novalis wrote:
Drgarage wrote:More interesting is the etymology back through challenge, the chal part of which is believed to come from calumny, which is all about trickery and deception. This (probably dubious) article even finds both a Latin and a Celtic root, both of which are all about trickery, confusion, and bewichment.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?ter ... in_frame=0



Calumny is an old legal term for false accusation or slander. Recent scholarship on Kafka has reached the conclusion that the K in Joseph K does not stand for Kafka, as many had assumed, but Kaluminator. In ancient Roman Law (which Kafka studied),

[b]ecause there was no Public Prosecutor it was felt necessary to dissuade people from overloading the judicial system with frivolous cases, and so as a deterrent a Prosecutor who failed to make his case could be branded on the forehead with the letter K for Kaluminator, or False Accuser, which could in effect ruin his career.


I don't for one second think any of this consciously motivated the naming of this character, but I think language nonetheless carries unintended or even unconscious signals on a wider, historical and collective level. The Tremonds/Chalfonts are two of my favourite other-realmers in TP. I find them extremely ambiguous, especially the way Pierre/the Grandson presages Harold Smith's suicide note in episode 9 of the original run (J'ai une âme solitaire). This scene, over and above the shenanigans with the creamed corn, is what sets Donna on that fateful path that will ultimately tip Harold over the edge, and so it invites the same kind of questions as are classically asked about the opening act of Macbeth -- supernatural ability or character flaw-as-predetermination?

Anyway, I'm getting carried away from the point here. I think the etymological resonances of 'false accuser' works nicely for Chalfont; bear in mind the scene from FWWM where the Grandson points and speaks 'fell a victim' -- it reeks of an accusatory, or judgement-bearing tone. It hardly need be mentioned that the accuser is one of the epithets of the Christian devil.

The point anyway: Kafka! Lynch likes Kafka. I like Kafka too. His literary expressionism is an interesting way in to viewing Lynch, and they certainly share some aesthetics in their world-building.

This is great. I didn't know about the ancient meanings of calumny. The Chalfonts have long been the most interesting spirits to me, as well. In part because they are very obviously heavily involved in something, but the audience has never focused that heavily on them, or seen them as some sort of vessel for others (i.e.: the old theory that the Grandson was only a reflection of Leland's current state of mind). It's like Lynch created the two most innocuous characters, then told everyone to look closely at them, and our eyes keep drifting to flashier spirits, both known (BOB and The Arm) and unknown (The Jumping Man).

Regardless of anything else, it's really fun to see them out front and center at the end of the season and to have people still be ignoring that clue.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Meaxylon » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:49 am

SatisfactionJackson wrote:This was on reddit. Sounds like the most plausible solution off the show:

"Judy steals away Laura when Coop is rescuing her, and Diane and Cooper give chase. The real Diane knows Cooper-- maybe even loves him--and trusts his intuition, so she plunges in with him. They drive 430 miles and enter into Judy's pocket dimension. Here, they seem to be indistinguishable from their Doppelgangers--Diane retains the trauma of her Tulpa (which she sees from the car) and Cooper maintains the steely, frightening drive of Mr. C (further evidenced when Cooper fries the guns. He seems to be threatening the waitress with his posture, and also warns the innocent chef that frying them might end up firing off a bullet and injuring/killing him).
Unable to deal with this (or maybe even stolen away by Judy) Diane "slips" away into Judy's ugly reality and become Linda to Cooper's Richard. Cooper might give up here, as he's once again lost someone he loves in the pursuit of good. But he remembers the giant telling him to remember "Richard and Linda."
The slipperiness of Judy's lair, I think, is mostly meant to disorient or discourage Cooper (or Jeffries, or anyone else who dove in to find her). Hence the motel shifting before and after Diane and Cooper stay. Or Laura being off at work that day. Or her being a murderer in this universe. Or guys pulling guns on him. But Coop reads the clues, beats all of Judy's trials, finds Laura, brings her to the Palmer home where Judy is holed up. The final hurdle for Cooper--beaten, lonely, and exhausted from the very long drive (if he slept, Judy would snatch him too, presumably)--is that Sarah isn't there.
Cooper is almost ready to cave at this point. He's clearly shaken by the defeat. For the first time in this universe, probably in the entire show, he doubts himself, that he's "Special Agent Dale Cooper." Maybe he is Richard after all. Maybe he should just go home and sleep and then slip, like Diane, into his new life.
But instead he remembers the constant question: "Is it future, or is it past?" He, with his impeccable intuition, asks the question, and overcomes Judy again. Maybe it's an answer to a riddle, or maybe it's proof of Cooper's pure and unwavering nature. I tend to believe it's more of the latter, but either way, he doesn't give up and proves he's the hero through and through. This either directly allows or compounds with some sliver of Sarah reaching out to Laura, and Laura suddenly remembers everything. She becomes Laura again. And being Laura, with all she's gone trough, is so horrifying that it causes her to scream in agony. But Judy, regardless, is finally defeated because of her presence.
The endless fields of throbbing power lines we've seen Mr. C following all season go dead, and the electricity finally goes out in the Palmer house.
Which means that the fan stops spinning and hopefully will never start again. "


I'm totally on board with this interpretation!
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Rhodes » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:28 am

I'm not on board.

It makes sense on a rational level. But it doesn't on an emotional level. It defenitely does not feel like a happy ending, so that is reason enough to dismiss it.

Still, there is a lot of good insights in it.
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Meaxylon
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Meaxylon » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:45 am

Rhodes wrote:I'm not on board.

It makes sense on a rational level. But it doesn't on an emotional level. It defenitely does not feel like a happy ending, so that is reason enough to dismiss it.

Still, there is a lot of good insights in it.


I do agree about the theory not matching on emotional level with the scene. But this reading makes it easier for me to accept the ending. I just can't bear the bleakness of the dead end / no exit / eternal nightmare ending.

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