Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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LateReg
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:46 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Part 17 started out severely on the wrong foot, almost aggressively playing up everything that's made me uncomfortable so far about TR: the FBI crew sitting around overexplaining shit in bland exposition, making references to Gordon/DKL's virility ("Not where it counts buddy," with a cut to Bell grinning...uggggh), demystifying old mysteries with the kind of bland mythology you can find on any Lost ripoff (Judy), and absurdly retconning the original (when the fuck did Coop, Garland & Cole acquire this knowledge during the original series, let alone discuss it with each other?!).

And the Bob/Freddy fight was even worse than I could have predicted. Ironically, I've been defending the visual effects in the Part 16 thread over the past couple of days, as they're clearly extensions of DKL's work in paint, sketch, and Photoshop (not that that means they have to work for everyone, but they're clearly intentional artistic choices). The Bob orb superhero battle, though....well, it's obviously a workaround for the loss of Mr. Silva. I love the Evolution of the Arm, the Jeffries teakettle is cool although I dislike the vocal impersonation, and I think Bob had been handled well so far. But this particular solution was....not pretty. I guess I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't acknowledge that this, too, was presumably a conscious artistic choice. But, Jesus, what a cheesy, poorly-handled one. Freddy's backstory is charming and ok on its face, but I've been dreading him playing a major role in the Lodge reckoning. This was just about as cringe-inducing as I could have possibly imagined.

It's funny...going into this, given DKL's last few films, I would have assumed the DoppelCoop storyline would have been used as an opportunity to explore identity and duality. Instead, it seems like almost an afterthought -- something L/F felt obligated to make a big deal out of throughout the season because it was the major cliffhanger, but it functions mostly as a mythology-delivery-system, and DoppelCoop/Bob is dispatched of early in Part 17 with shockingly little fanfare, with a good chunk of runtime to go. I'm sad that the storyline didn't pay off in a better way, and that the wind-up was so frigging silly and cartoonish, but I am at least grateful that it ended when it did so that the show could go to a far more interesting place for its final 90 minutes or so.

(Caveat: I have no clue what actually happened in the final 90 minutes, and there is a strong possibility that once we start sorting it out, the Mr. C character/story WILL say more about Coop's identity/duality than we currently realize. Because the multiple Dianes, the trips in and out of the Red Room and potential "joining" of the Coops, Coop's "Mr. C"-esque demeanor in the sex scene, &c. do hint at some sort of overlap between Coopers which I don't think any of us can quite discern from a first viewing.)

I'm also sad that Coop didn't even learn that Harry is sick onscreen. Given the buildup about Harry's illness, I can't believe how little payoff there was to the Dale/Harry friendship. If they hadn't mentioned Harry, or had minimized his presence, I might be a little less disappointed by the lack of a reunion between the original series' leads. But what was the point of constantly reminding us of him just to have Coop make a glancing mention then move on? :-/

So the Dianagram theorists were definitely on to something, re: Naido and Linda. When Diane was covering up Dale's face in the sex scene, I was extremely uncomfortable, since she was obviously trying to avoid recalling her rape by Mr. C. It crossed my mind that the scene was needlessly exploitative, unless Diane is the dreamer and this has all been her story. There is something satisfying about the unseen listener-character from the original run being the dreamer. I don't think that's what ended up happening (although who the hell knows), but I do think Diane and Audrey are both somehow central to all of this (in a different way from Laura). Also interesting that the Audrey rape is left as vague as it was when it was first implied, and Dale isn't directly forced to confront raping either of these women. We know DoppelCoop had the real Dale's memories of Jeffries' appearance in FWWM; how much does Dale remember of what Mr. C did? How does it affect him?

Part 18 clinches Zabriskie as the season MVP. I didn't think any use of the homecoming photo could top "Pennsylvania 6-5000," but holy crap. Still really not sure what any of this says about Sarah's culpability in Laura's rape and murder, and the implications make me slightly uneasy, but on a pure visceral level, hers have been consistently among the strongest scenes on the show.

Unpacking the exploits of Richard, Linda, Carrie Page & Alice Tremond is an adventure for another day. I feel the same things I felt after my first viewing of IE: complete and utter bewilderment, frustration, and wonder. On subsequent viewings, IE became one of my favorite films. I can't wait to peel back the layers of this thing, but I'm far too exhausted right now.


I'm slowly making my way through this thread, so apologies if you've already returned to any of these thoughts in this post. As I've said before, I really think the exposition scenes are nothing to fret over. They're tinged with a winking sense of humor, whether it's Lynch himself dropping the exposition or Albert starting sentences with "As you know..." I see the demystification done with a wink, followed by a boatload of other abstractions to think about hidden behind/within that demystification. Plus, the apparent double meta-meaning of "Jow-day" that many articles have pointed out. Plus the way the exposition gleefully disrupts the descent into unknowability that we've been used to, further disorienting and keeping us on our toes. And while the Freddy/Bob scene isn't my favorite on a plot level, I do think Lynch elevated it to a fiery work of art. And, there too may be something tongue-in-cheek taking place, though I'm not sure. There's so much to take in in that whole sequence.

I know you've been a huge supporter of Dougie and the way his arc examines identity. I've been following your thoughts on Mr. C not having much to him in that regard, but for me the emergence of Richard absolutely sealed the deal that Mr. C has been an exploration of Cooper's identity all along. That is what Richard did for me, united everything we've seen and heard about Mr. C to everything we explored with Dougie to everything we thought we knew about Cooper. I think the study of Cooper's identity is actually the main component of The Return, thanks to the finale, which sees Cooper attempting to hang on to his identity one more time as it melts and slips away, or as we see all of these facets finally merge into one being. Dale isn't forced to confront his acts of rape, but as his face goes cold and distant during the sex scene, we realize, along with Diane, and perhaps on some level Dale himself, that he is indeed capable of such acts. A lot to unpack.
Last edited by LateReg on Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:56 am

sewhite2000 wrote:
Cipher wrote:
sewhite2000 wrote:I like a lot of what you are saying here, but why did Dale and Diane have to "cross over" in the first place? Crossing over to what? Diane tries to talk Dale out of it, it seems. It seemed as if their new reality took a while to fully manifest. It is not until morning that Diane thinks of herself as Linda and Cooper as Richard. A different motel. A different car. A more populated area. What does it all mean?

Crossing over to the alternate world where Cooper senses/understands Laura has been sent, as a result of his actions or otherwise, I assumed.

Diane asking if he was sure meant, "Do you want to stay in this world where we understand everything (at the expense of going after Laura)?"


I'm finally caught up reading all 25 pages. I don't know if I'm ready for this to be Summary of Everything I Feel About the Season post. I do like your explanation that Cooper sensed Laura had been sent to another world. I didn't catch that while watching. I didn't really understand why Cooper wanted to travel to another reality.

Okay, I'm not expecting that I'll every truly understand this, but I think tonight I will just ask a few more questions rather than make my great summation of how I felt about the whole thing:

1) Of course, the lack of seeing any familiar Twin Peaks characters in the final return to TP (we got more than one!) leaves us at a loss to know what else might be different other than the Palmer house ownership and the Double R sign. But if Dale knowingly crossed into another reality or plane of existence, should he really be surprised that things might be different, like Tremonds living in the Palmer house? I mean, this is already a reality where Laura is a a waitress in Odessa, Texas. He seems really thrown for a loop that Sarah Palmer didn't open the door. For that matter, why would be hung up on what year it was, when just the fact of being in an alternate plane of existence could explain realities being different?

Okay, well, maybe that's my only question for right now. My brain is pretty fried.


I really interpreted this other world at the end as being different mainly in the way that we see Cooper and Diane change. That would apply to everything/everybody there, sure, but I still don't think Dale was fully aware of how much things would change. He was told by the Fireman to remember Richard and Linda. I took this as a clue that would help Cooper hold on to his true identity, because the main change that would occur is that those who crossed over who slowly slip from their previous selves into whoever they are supposed to be in that alternate reality/timeline. So I see Cooper slipping into Richard throughout, only hanging on to aspects of his true self because he was prepared for the mission by the Fireman, whereas Diane was not as prepared and slipped away fully into her Linda persona.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:04 pm

N. Needleman wrote:Audrey in Diane's place would've been beyond heartbreaking. Maybe too much for people to take.


I always find it amusing when people say it should have been Audrey or Annie. Yes, in TV show logic, it should have definitely been Audrey or Annie, since those are the characters we knew and who we know Cooper had affection for. But he knew them for a couple weeks. He's shared something deep, longing and flirtatious with Diane for a long time. Audrey or Annie in Diane's place wouldn't make any sense to me.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:46 pm

I'm confused by many things about the finale, but if I had to pick one thing that stands out, it would be the fact that Cooper is so oblivious to the altered nature of the reality he crosses over to.

If Laura is not herself in this reality, but rather a girl named Carrie Page, then why on earth would he take her to the Palmer House in Twin Peaks? I can't understand why he would expect the Palmer Family to exist at all, much less recognize a stranger who was their daughter in a timeline they are unaware of. The only way for me to explain this at the moment is to believe that an eternal spiritual connection would override such physical logistics.

On a secondary note, I'm not convinced that the events of 1989 are all a dream. There's been some outrage from viewers who believe this is intended to be the case, but it would make a lot more sense if the events in The Return are part of the trial that Cooper is undergoing rather than an outright dream.

Furthermore, the fact that he is passing a test doesn't mean that the events are not real. Hawk had previously told Cooper:

My people believe that The White Lodge is a place where the spirits that rule Man and Nature here, reside.

There is also a legend of a place called The Black Lodge — the shadow self of The White Lodge. Legend says, that every spirit must pass through there on the way to perfection. There, you will meet your own shadow self. My people call it "The Dweller on The Threshold".

But it is said, “If you confront The Black Lodge with imperfect courage, it will utterly annihilate your soul”.


It could be that the emergence of The Doppelganger and everything that followed was in fact the trial itself, and that Cooper has endured it and emerged, having attained the required enlightenment and courage along the way. It doesn't seem impossible that his trial was embedded within (a) reality.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby BHell » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:01 pm

Mr. Strawberry wrote:I'm confused by many things about the finale, but if I had to pick one thing that stands out, it would be the fact that Cooper is so oblivious to the altered nature of the reality he crosses over to.

If Laura is not herself in this reality, but rather a girl named Carrie Page, then why on earth would he take her to the Palmer House in Twin Peaks? I can't understand why he would expect the Palmer Family to exist at all, much less recognize a stranger who was their daughter in a timeline they are unaware of. The only way for me to explain this at the moment is to believe that an eternal spiritual connection would override such physical logistics.


I can't really offer a conclusive explanation, but I have wondered the same, and here's how far I've come:

1.) When Cooper and Diane are sitting in the car, about to cross over, both of them seem to still be aware of the twistedness of the other "reality", and that things over there would not be what they seem to be.

2.) After crossing over, Diane (at some point) becomes Linda and Cooper undergoes some change (possibly taking on aspects of the Richard personality). But, contrary to Diane, he still knows why he's there (to find Laura) and presumably where he needs to go. We can assume, his (and the Fireman's) plan is to take Laura home to Sarah.

3.) When he confronts "Carrie" with her identity as Laura, he seems surprised that she doesn't immediately remember being Laura.
I find this strange, as Cooper should know this world obfuscates things - nothing is as it appears to be. Add to that, that "Carrie" works in Judy's Diner - you would have no reason to expect Laura to know who she is. Yet, Cooper expects exactly this.

4.) He goes on with his plan anyways. Maybe he assumes this issue will resolve itself when Laura faces her mother. He ignores the dead man in Carrie's apartment and takes her on a roadtrip to Twin Peaks.

5.) There, he thinks Sarah is living in the Palmer house. And, as you said, there is good reason not to believe that. There's nothing wrong with trying, I guess. Still, he should not be as surprised as he is, when someone other than Sarah opens the door.

6.) He does not know what year it is, or at least has doubts about it. Again, he seems surprised about this.
But: He eventually succeeds in his mission to make Laura remember. And he (at least momentarily) fails to return her to Sarah.

So, what do we make of it? Maybe Richard is a bit stubborn and Cooper takes on that character trait. Or maybe the Fireman assured him that his plan would succeed (in some way, it did in the end), so he had reason to believe all steps of the plan would go as planned and reason to be surpried when they didn't. Or maybe, becoming part of a strange world means behaving strange.

That's all I have. I know it's not much. Is it of any help to you?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby BHell » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:43 pm

And now for something (completely) different ...

It's been over a week and discussions are slowly ebbing down. But at this moment, there are still some open questions I'm sticking around for, as I haven't found satisfying answers to them, explanations that would seem sufficient to me. The most prominent ones being:

1.) Where is it Cooper and Diane are going? What is this strange "world"?
2.) Why Diane? Coudn't it have been someone else or Cooper alone? ... It isn't about Diane ... Is it about Diane?
3.) What is the significance of the Chalfonts/Tremonds in the Palmer house? Just another sign of Judy's influence or something more?

I recently had an idea about the first one, that I have not read anywhere yet. My problem with this idea of mine is that it's a bit more complex than I like my explanations to be. On the other hand, it plays with concepts already established in the prior plot. I'll try to lay it out - let me start with another question:

Can worlds/places/towns have dopppelgängers?
I propose: The Twin Peaks we see in part 18, the one Cooper and Laura are in, is Twin Peaks's doppelgänger.

How sensible is this? Well, there are some indications:

  • Part-18-Twin-Peaks (and the whole world around it) is a twisted version of the Twin Peaks we are used to. We know from Mr. C that doppelgängers are like twisted versions of their originals and otherwise share many of their properties.
  • Doppelgängers are in some way or another linked with evil, with Judy. Judy is obviously very present in the part-18-world (Judy's Diner, white horses(?)).
  • There has always been symbolism of mirrors and mirrpr-images being connected to Doppelgängers (and possession). This season, we had an interesting mirroring of Big Ed's gas station - with no immediate payoff plotwise.
  • Doppelgängers look just like the original, yet feel very different. And there are always subtle tells that something is off. In part 18, it's the same with with the world around Cooper. He himself (as Richard?) even acts a bit "harder" there.
  • For the viewer, the town of Twin Peaks feels like a character of its own; one of the series' "dramatis personae". As such, why would it not have a doppelgänger.
  • Electricity (lodge influence) being a part of getting there makes at least some sense: It could not only be seen as Cooper and Diane travelling through electricity, but also as the doppelgänger manifesting around them; as the world's doppelgänger being "transported into the real world".
  • Soon after entering the "zone", Diane sees herself (or Linda?) at the motel. Her doppelgänger or a tulpa being aroud does not make much sense plotwise. But if she has just entered a doppelgänger, it could just be a remnant of what this doppelgänger originally contained in her stead.
  • Doppelgängers of places are more compatible with the established lore than timelines, parallel universes, etc.

Ok. Now on to the harder process - intellectual honesty. Let's see what speaks against this idea:

  • Lynch has been very open about his mythology this season. If he wanted alternate Twin Peaks to be a doppelgänger, he could have been a lot clearer about it.
  • Ockham's razor: A Twin-Peaks-doppelgänger requires far more axiomatic assumptions than, for example, assuming this "world" is some kind of prison Judy constructs for Laura.
  • If we go with what is actually said out loud in part 17, there is something being dreamed up. Doppelgängers are not exactly dreams, are they?
  • For a doppelgänger, isn't alternate Twin Peaks just a little bit too different? Like the missing "RR2GO". Shouldn't a doppelgänger look more like the original?
  • Soon after entering the "zone", Diane sees herself (or Linda?) at the motel. If that's her doppelgänger, it's a bit of an overkill: Doppelgängers within doppelgängers.
  • Does this theory actually have merit outside of itself? Does it further our understanding? Does it change/improve how one watches part 18?

What does everyone else think? Does anyone find more evidence for or (more importantly) against the theorem presented?
As I said, I myself am not entirely convinced.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:39 pm

LateReg wrote:I'm slowly making my way through this thread, so apologies if you've already returned to any of these thoughts in this post. As I've said before, I really think the exposition scenes are nothing to fret over. They're tinged with a winking sense of humor, whether it's Lynch himself dropping the exposition or Albert starting sentences with "As you know..." I see the demystification done with a wink, followed by a boatload of other abstractions to think about hidden behind/within that demystification. Plus, the apparent double meta-meaning of "Jow-day" that many articles have pointed out. Plus the way the exposition gleefully disrupts the descent into unknowability that we've been used to, further disorienting and keeping us on our toes. And while the Freddy/Bob scene isn't my favorite on a plot level, I do think Lynch elevated it to a fiery work of art. And, there too may be something tongue-in-cheek taking place, though I'm not sure. There's so much to take in in that whole sequence.

I know you've been a huge supporter of Dougie and the way his arc examines identity. I've been following your thoughts on Mr. C not having much to him in that regard, but for me the emergence of Richard absolutely sealed the deal that Mr. C has been an exploration of Cooper's identity all along. That is what Richard did for me, united everything we've seen and heard about Mr. C to everything we explored with Dougie to everything we thought we knew about Cooper. I think the study of Cooper's identity is actually the main component of The Return, thanks to the finale, which sees Cooper attempting to hang on to his identity one more time as it melts and slips away, or as we see all of these facets finally merge into one being. Dale isn't forced to confront his acts of rape, but as his face goes cold and distant during the sex scene, we realize, along with Diane, and perhaps on some level Dale himself, that he is indeed capable of such acts. A lot to unpack.


Heh, I was uncharacteristically cursing a lot in that post! Obviously in an emotional state after that powerhouse of a finale.

Yes, when i wrote that post I was pretty sure the "real" Dale becoming an integrated incorporation of all his various forms (particularly the overtly Mr. C demeanor) gave new significance to Mr. C's persona and what he says about Dale, if not necessarily to the actual Mr. C storyline. LostInTheMovies and Needleman have made some great points about what the integration of Mr. C into Dale/Richard might signify. For my part, in analyzing Mr. C's storyline and what it might express about Dale's flaws/shortcomings, it occurs to me that Mr. C's driving motivation is to explore the supernatural, to find Judy, to seek answers. Perhaps he is doing this to achieve power, or perhaps out of curiosity...or both. But that goal really does feel like a natural outgrowth of Dale's deepest desire to solve the mysteries of the universe and achieve enlightenment, with Mr. C as the dangerous id who pursues the goal at any cost. Maybe that perspective will allow me to enjoy the doppel's escapades more on rewatches (I just finished Part 3 and am enjoying his scenes a lot, but I was also still really liking his storyline at this point when the show was airing).

Perhaps the reason I still have trouble bridging the divide between Dale from the old series and Mr. C is that the doppel seems more like Dale's exact opposite/negative image. Coop as we knew him was brimming with energy and enthusiasm, whereas Mr. C is the embodiment of dispassionate detachment. He feels less like a latent part of "our" Dale and more like an inversion. The portrayal in the closing moments of Episode 29 feels more like Coop's true id, with his wild gleefulness. Yet Part 18 intriguingly hints that this more restrained, serious "man of few words" might be closer to the true Cooper? Is his quirky boyishness a put-on/comfort mechanism that masks his true darker quieter self? Does this parallel DKL and his "Jimmy Stewart from Mars" public persona? I'm still having trouble putting the pieces together, honestly. Even the Dougie storyline seemed to imply that Coop has an inherent goodness at his core which improves the lives of those around him, but he seems to have somehow lost it in Part 18. As Diane says, everything might be different when they cross over.

Perhaps he sacrificed the lovable boyish side of himself when he created Dougie 2.0, literally giving a part of himself to Janey-E and Sonny Jim? Haven't seen this postulated before, just occurred to me. It would be interesting if Diane's sister got the warm loving Dale while Diane got the cold leftovers. :-/ I'm sure Dale/Dougie's few days with his "family" warmed his heart, but that would be a pretty cruel thing to do to poor Diane.

Or maybe, just as Dougie is a receptive newborn, "Richard"-Dale represents the older, burned-out self, similar to that terrific monologue in The Hurt Locker about how you start out life loving many things, but are lucky to have one thing left that you love by the time you reach true maturity. Maybe Dale has lost so much of himself along the way that ham and maple syrup, Douglas ("Douglas Jones/Milford"?!) firs, even coffee (look how unenthused he is when he sips at Judy's) don't do it for him anymore. The only thing he has left that he loves is heroism, overplayed chivalry, the pursuit of the mystery, and Laura Palmer.

In regards to what you say about the exposition and glove fight being tongue-in-cheek to some extent, I agree, but that doesn't make those aspects automatically enjoyable. I might warm to the goofy exposition on rewatch, but I doubt my estimation of the glove fight will ever improve. Just not my thing, but thankfully, it's one of only a handful of things about TR that I consider a failure. Btw, in the first post in my thread speculating on Mark Frost's contributions to the show, I postulated that TR ironically-unironically engages in genre tropes of Lost-style mythology shows, just as the original series did with soap opera. So I definitely agree with you that this is one of the games L/F were playing. It just didn't always work for me.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:32 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Heh, I was uncharacteristically cursing a lot in that post! Obviously in an emotional state after that powerhouse of a finale.

Yes, when i wrote that post I was pretty sure the "real" Dale becoming an integrated incorporation of all his various forms (particularly the overtly Mr. C demeanor) gave new significance to Mr. C's persona and what he says about Dale, if not necessarily to the actual Mr. C storyline. LostInTheMovies and Needleman have made some great points about what the integration of Mr. C into Dale/Richard might signify. For my part, in analyzing Mr. C's storyline and what it might express about Dale's flaws/shortcomings, it occurs to me that Mr. C's driving motivation is to explore the supernatural, to find Judy, to seek answers. Perhaps he is doing this to achieve power, or perhaps out of curiosity...or both. But that goal really does feel like a natural outgrowth of Dale's deepest desire to solve the mysteries of the universe and achieve enlightenment, with Mr. C as the dangerous id who pursues the goal at any cost. Maybe that perspective will allow me to enjoy the doppel's escapades more on rewatches (I just finished Part 3 and am enjoying his scenes a lot, but I was also still really liking his storyline at this point when the show was airing).

Perhaps the reason I still have trouble bridging the divide between Dale from the old series and Mr. C is that the doppel seems more like Dale's exact opposite/negative image. Coop as we knew him was brimming with energy and enthusiasm, whereas Mr. C is the embodiment of dispassionate detachment. He feels less like a latent part of "our" Dale and more like an inversion. The portrayal in the closing moments of Episode 29 feels more like Coop's true id, with his wild gleefulness. Yet Part 18 intriguingly hints that this more restrained, serious "man of few words" might be closer to the true Cooper? Is his quirky boyishness a put-on/comfort mechanism that masks his true darker quieter self? Does this parallel DKL and his "Jimmy Stewart from Mars" public persona? I'm still having trouble putting the pieces together, honestly. Even the Dougie storyline seemed to imply that Coop has an inherent goodness at his core which improves the lives of those around him, but he seems to have somehow lost it in Part 18. As Diane says, everything might be different when they cross over.

Perhaps he sacrificed the lovable boyish side of himself when he created Dougie 2.0, literally giving a part of himself to Janey-E and Sonny Jim? Haven't seen this postulated before, just occurred to me. It would be interesting if Diane's sister got the warm loving Dale while Diane got the cold leftovers. :-/ I'm sure Dale/Dougie's few days with his "family" warmed his heart, but that would be a pretty cruel thing to do to poor Diane.

Or maybe, just as Dougie is a receptive newborn, "Richard"-Dale represents the older, burned-out self, similar to that terrific monologue in The Hurt Locker about how you start out life loving many things, but are lucky to have one thing left that you love by the time you reach true maturity. Maybe Dale has lost so much of himself along the way that ham and maple syrup, Douglas ("Douglas Jones/Milford"?!) firs, even coffee (look how unenthused he is when he sips at Judy's) don't do it for him anymore. The only thing he has left that he loves is heroism, overplayed chivalry, the pursuit of the mystery, and Laura Palmer.

In regards to what you say about the exposition and glove fight being tongue-in-cheek to some extent, I agree, but that doesn't make those aspects automatically enjoyable. I might warm to the goofy exposition on rewatch, but I doubt my estimation of the glove fight will ever improve. Just not my thing, but thankfully, it's one of only a handful of things about TR that I consider a failure. Btw, in the first post in my thread speculating on Mark Frost's contributions to the show, I postulated that TR ironically-unironically engages in genre tropes of Lost-style mythology shows, just as the original series did with soap opera. So I definitely agree with you that this is one of the games L/F were playing. It just didn't always work for me.


It's funny. I had originally written your exact thought about Dale sacrificing the Dougie side of himself for Janey-E, hence why he is so stern and cool as Richard, because that side of Cooper no longer exists! I deleted that thought because I didn't want to complicate what I was trying to get across, which is that Richard does seem to finally tie Bad Coop to Good Coop so that we understand that Bad Coop was indeed a side of Good Coop, and not just his inversion (I like what you say about episode 29 being the true id, but as I believe you have read me point out before, I find that the Bad Coop is the aged version of the Doppelganger we saw in episode 29, so it works for me). Along those lines, I think that Bad Coop is actually the inversion of Dougie-Coop, two super extreme polar opposites that we spent the whole season following. The real Good Coop is somewhere in between, more toward the Dougie side of things, able to suppress the Bad Coop, while Richard is a more realistic, neo-Western-noir version of that. I like how we are given hints along the way that Bad Coop was not only always a part of the Good Coop (his drive and determination, as you said above) but also that he was always suppressed inside the Good Coop (the way he acted out on Good Coop's suppressed lust/desires by raping both Audrey and Diane). I view everything that happened in The Return as "real," but what the finale solidified for me, amongst many other things, is that this entire thing could be read as a journey through Cooper's subconscious and feels that way, and that the Red Room/Lodges are still intact as non-literal, metaphorical realms despite their existence in "reality."

As I said in a post above, I think Dale is struggling to hang on to his identity in the finale, and only able to do so because of the Giant's clues. When he sees Laura again he does snap out of his cooler, sterner Richard phase that we saw in Judy's diner, but he also ignores the dead body, possibly simply because he remembers his mission. His uncharacteristic lack of dialogue in the car ride is discomfiting to say the least, but I also view that as him desperately trying to concentrate and hang on to himself and the task at hand.

And yeah, that glove fight isn't my thing either, but the chaos in the room and the hole in the floor with the fire shooting out of it definitely is!
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:08 am

BHell wrote:
Cipher wrote:I also like the reading above that interprets "430. Richard and Linda. Two birds with one stone" as a warning. That's certainly possible. Either way, it's an inscrutable spiritual tug of war with Laura (capable of saving herself and understanding) and Cooper (who can't) in between. I'm happy we know as little about the spirits as we do--they illustrate the emotional components without subsuming them, as I was worried at points this season they might.

Ragnell wrote:Richard and Linda. 430. 2 birds with one stone.

The clue was backwards, showed that if he tried to get those two birds he'd end up with Richard and Linda's unsatisfying night. "I understand" "You are far away"="You are nowhere near understanding."


I do find that kind of interpretation quite witty and entertaining, but I won't lie: It does not convince me. If that phrase was a warning, it was worded extremely badly. Not just simply because Cooper didn't get it; but because it achieved the polar opposite of what it intendend to. Simply omitting the "430" would have sufficed to prevent Cooper from doing what he did. Heck, without the "430" he would not even have needed any kind of warning.

Also, how did Cooper conclude from "Two birds with one stone" and "430", that he was supposed to drive 430 miles in a certain direction, no less with another person (who might or might not have to be Diane of all people), to get to Laura. We seem to be missing some crucial steps here. Or is that already dream logic at work?

To me, the only reasonable assumption is, that Cooper was indeed pushed in this direction. So the Lodge inhabitants must have cared in some way - maybe not for Coop or Laura, but at least for something. And that begs the question: Cui bono?

Cooper and Laura are certainly not better off, being stuck in some twisted version of Twin Peaks they don't know. At least not at the moment.
Leland could not have wished for this. Mike, at best, really did'nt care.
That leaves the Giant/Fireman, who gave the clue. But what did he gain from this? He might have scored against Judy - but to score, Cooper rescuing Laura in the woods would have been enough. No further action needed...


Apologies if this has already been addressed further, as I'm still making my way through the thread. But my interpretation of the Fireman's warnings/clues to Cooper are that they, along with other lodge entities and Diane/Cole, were in on this together from the start. So the Fireman is telling Cooper these things to remind him of the plan they've already worked out in advance, to prepare him for the identity slippage (Dale/Richard and Diane/Linda) that will plague him once he crosses over, so that he can accomplish the mission. These are things for Cooper to remember, as the Fireman states. That's how I took it anyway.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:51 pm

Out of curiosity I checked how many miles the drive is from the Trinity Test site to Odessa, Texas. If one heads south to El Paso, then east to the outskirts of Odessa, it's exactly 430 miles. Probably just a coincidence though.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby BigEd » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:38 pm

Mr. Strawberry wrote:Out of curiosity I checked how many miles the drive is from the Trinity Test site to Odessa, Texas. If one heads south to El Paso, then east to the outskirts of Odessa, it's exactly 430 miles. Probably just a coincidence though.
Trinity Site to Odessa, Texas.png


Wow. We have no idea where Coop and Diane were traveling from to reach the 430 mile mark. I think you're on to something. Not sure how to sort this all out.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:49 pm

LateReg wrote:(I like what you say about episode 29 being the true id, but as I believe you have read me point out before, I find that the Bad Coop is the aged version of the Doppelganger we saw in episode 29, so it works for me).


Yep, I can't remember if I arrived at this interpretation independently or cribbed it from you. In 29, he was in some ways like Dougie: newborn to the world and everything was fresh and new. 25 years later, the physical pleasures just aren't doing it for him. It's similar to the world-weariness that seems to have infected Albert, and not at all unrealistic, but still an interesting choice in the case of Mr. C's character development, which impliedly impacts Dale's character development.

Also interesting to note that, just as Dale gave his warmth and enthusiasm to his Dougie-tulpa (perhaps), Mr. C might have lost his passion for pleasures of the flesh when he made Dougie 1.0. Dougie seems to have been living the kind of bacchanalian lifestyle we might have expected from the doppel.

I view everything that happened in The Return as "real," but what the finale solidified for me, amongst many other things, is that this entire thing could be read as a journey through Cooper's subconscious and feels that way, and that the Red Room/Lodges are still intact as non-literal, metaphorical realms despite their existence in "reality."


Yep, this is one of my favorite things about TP, and I think one of the most unique things about the franchise. I still think this season spent a bit too much time on the "literal" side of the spectrum, but overall I'm certainly happy with how this aspect of things paid off.

And yeah, that glove fight isn't my thing either, but the chaos in the room and the hole in the floor with the fire shooting out of it definitely is!


I liked certain shots/elements, such as the shot near the beginning, of overlapping/blurring shots of the overhead fluorescent lights.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mibbler » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:51 pm

Do you think that the dead man we see at Carrie Page´s house is the same guy of Part 6 (Ronnie Gene Blevins)? He´s not credited at the end.

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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:50 am

Mibbler wrote:Do you think that the dead man we see at Carrie Page´s house is the same guy of Part 6 (Ronnie Gene Blevins)? He´s not credited at the end.

pjes.jpg


That is a pretty remarkable resemblance. Wonder why that particular character/actor tho'?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:28 am

sylviecerise wrote:Was singing it abstent-mindedly & realized that Chromatic's Shadow was definitely written with the last episode in mind:

At night I'm driving in your car
Pretending that we'll leave this town
We're watching all the street lights fade
And now you're just a stranger's dream
I took your picture from the frame
And now you're nothing like you seem
Your shadow fell like last night's rain


A mixed perspective of Carrie/Laura, Richard/Cooper, and Sarah


Throughout I've noticed that the songs themselves are just as important as the dialogue. I had a similar a-ha! moment while listening to Lissie's Wild West. The finale is essentially a Western, where Cooper goes rogue, in hopes of changing everything.

"Are you out there
To take away my fear?
I haven't lost my hope
Even though I am so far from my home
I've been living my life on the edge
Slip and fall if I take one more step
There's safety in numbers, I guess
But I'm going rogue in the wild, wild west

From where I stand
There's a world where you can
All that you lost, you get back
And all that you want, you can have
I've been living my life on the edge
Slip and fall if I take one more step
There's safety in numbers, I guess
But I'm going rogue in the wild, wild west"

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