Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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chromereflectsimage
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby chromereflectsimage » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:38 pm

Saturn's child wrote:
-Mr. Jackpots- wrote:
Xavi wrote:Why, when and how did Agent Cooper get to the Giant's (as shown in part one) ?


...just before he woke up in the hospital?


This works for me!

I'm thinking it's after the police station scene fades. The next shot after is Cooper Diane and Gordon walking to where Cooper reaches the basement and he suddenly now has his pin on. The Giant scene could take place between these two scenes. Cooper didn't really wake after the coma is how I saw it, hence the ridiculous take down of Mr C and Bob, plus he was almost too chipper for all that happened. The Richard version of Cooper seemed more believable, even though all he really did was trade one delusion (dissasociating MR C from Cooper) for another (accepting they are one in the same but now trying to change the past so that all the bad Mr C had done didn't happen by Laura never dying and him never coming to Twin Peaks and going into the black lodge).
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby bowisneski » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:03 pm

I really enjoyed the finale when I first watched it as a beautiful experience, but last night it finally all sort of clicked in to place for me. I've not read the whole thread yet, so I apologize if everything that follows is a regurgitation, but it's the interpretation I think I've settled on. Pending finishing a full read of this thread to incorporate new ideas and thoughts.

A couple things to preface my following interpretation with, I can't find the quote so I might be misremembering/it may never have been said, but I remember someone on the creative end saying something along the lines of "once you're in the Lodge, you're always in the Lodge." We've also experienced all of Twin Peaks linearly through Agent Cooper, possibly with the exception of the opening FBI bit of FWwM. Even though FWwM is a prequel, we are following Cooper's story linearly as we see him post Episode 29 interacting with Laura in the Lodge space.

The other things that cinched the following for me are the fact that everything we see in the "past" is in black and white as well as something that may be a continuity error, but I'm not sure, which is Cooper's FBI pin. He doesn't have it during his visit with the Fireman, nor during his time as Dougie through his transportation out of the sheriff's station, but then has it back when he goes to "rescue" Laura through the end of the series.

With the above in mind, I think that Cooper and Briggs(I think Diane is also included in this because she was trapped in the Lodge, but Gordon does not know that), both in Lodge space outside of time, worked together on a plan and somehow met with Gordon to fill him in and set up their plan. We now know that Gordon knew that Jeffries was no longer himself in the traditional sense, so he has either seen or been filled in about Jeffries. So, these men come up with an inherently flawed plan because they have an overall altruistic goal of defeating the mother of pain and sorrow, but being human they each have their own goals in mind as well. I think the personal goals are Cooper wants to escape the Lodge, Gordon wants to save his missing agents, and Briggs wants to prove that love is enough(that's just a guess with nothing to back it up because I'm not sure what Briggs really wants). And their personal motivations and higher goal were exploited by the Fireman to reach his own end goal. The passage below is a condensed version of what Doug Milford shares with Briggs

And don't believe anyone who tells you this all began in Roswell in '47. I'm convinced now that whatever I've glimpsed or encountered and spent my life tracking has been with us since humankind came down out of the trees. It is not something "out there" --in the president's words. They may well have once been our "neighbors from some distant star, but I believe they were here before us. .............. These final truths you must never forget: we are utterly incapable of knowing their true intent, and their true intent may not be to wish us well. It may be that they're here to guide or even aid our evolution; it's equally possible we may matter no more to them than those random protozoa in our tap water do to us. In other words, by our meager moral definitions, they may be both "good" and "evil", and those precious distinctions of ours mean nothing to them.


That passage points to the Fireman having his own non-understandable goal, but my figuring of it is as follows. Judy is a force that needs to exist in the universe, you can't free the universe of pain and sorrow, but our detonation of the atomic bomb essentially created an overload of garmonbozia causing Judy to vomit out all of the eggs and BOB(the embodiment of the evil that men do), as well as forever connecting our universes forever through the past before the detonation and after. BOB, being created from a place of pain, sorrow, and human hubris, has that hubris ingrained in him. I think he wants to usurp Judy and that is not something that the Fireman wants, because BOB isn't about balance and the universe would be flooded with garmonbozia. I would also posit that BOB uses Cooper's doppleganger as a host because Mr. C is on the same mission as Cooper(since he is his shadow self and borne of him) so they are working towards the same end of destroying Judy, they're just arriving at that want for different reasons. So the Fireman creates Laura as a trap for BOB and exploits the Blue Rose team and Briggs to achieve his end goal of dissipating and weakening BOB(I'm not convinced that Freddie defeated BOB or that any Lodge entity can be destroyed) to restore the order of the day.

Which takes us back to Cooper and the plan. Cooper believes that if his plan succeeds he won't just defeat pain and sorrow, but also save himself from the Lodge because he never would have had to enter it. This involves "saving" Laura and destroying Judy. But once you enter the Lodge you are always in the Lodge.

So, in Part 2 we see Mike ask Cooper "is it future, or is it past", and I think that everything from that point forward through Part 17/18 and the loss of Laura and Mike once again asking "is it future, or it it past" takes place in that moment, and Cooper saying "we live inside a dream" takes place in the Lodge just before that in the traditional sense of time. He says "we live inside a dream" because he realizes he lives inside of the Lodge forever in an endless waking nightmare from which there is no escape without fully divesting himself from the Lodge. So he plans to sacrifice Laura to save himself from ever traveling to the Lodge and with the thought that he will be able to defeat Judy, two birds with one stone.

The "Laura" in the Lodge in Part two is not Laura, but a tulpa named Carrie Page who is pulled out of the Lodge, much the same way tulpa Diane is pulled out of our world, and deposited in a secluded universe. Which also means that real Laura achieved her closure and meeting with the Angels at the end of FWwM, and none of that is undone because the only Laura that Cooper interacts with is the Laura of the past and a tulpa.

Back to episode 17. Cooper, Diane, and Cole are transported to the Great Northern and Cooper goes through the door to visit Jeffries. In the moment that Coop is transported from the sheriff's department, he visits the Fireman in the first scene we see this season(I think this scene could also take place during his journey through the outlet in Part 3). After their discussion, Cooper disappears in the same static-y fade that he then arrives in the past with. His FBI pin is restored to him for the journey ahead. We are now in the past since everything is in black and white. When Laura takes Coopers hand and color is restored, we are now in the "present" of a new universe that has been created(I believe that what original Laura experience is Dale disappearing as soon as she takes his hand, so she proceeds to meet with Leo, Jacques, and Ronette). However, this is something that can not happen, so Laura feels all of her pain and screams, the new universe collapses, and Cooper is transported back to the Lodge where Mike inquires of him "is it future, or is it past" and Cooper proceeds to leave the Lodge, as tulpa Laura told him he could go out, and meet with Diane, who is also unstuck from time because she was stored in the Lodge. I believe he leaves the Lodge the same night that Hawk was in Glastonbury Grove, because the Log Lady confirms to Hawk that something is supposed to be happening that night and Hawk sees the curtains in the woods. However Cooper either exits before Hawk arrives or after.

Then Cooper and Diane travel to the other place we visit in Part 18. Now possibly knowing that his first plan failed he enacts a second plan that involves traveling to a second new universe, a possibility he has discussed with Diane at some point in the Lodge, where he believes he can trap Judy. The arrive at the hotel and I think there might be a timecut between the end of the sex scene and Cooper waking up. I'm not convinced that is the next day. But that's irrelevant. So Cooper finds Carrie and they travel to the Palmer house, but when they arrive and find a Tremond as the owner, he realizes he's been played and there is no escape. Then, just as in the new universe as with in the woods, tulpa Laura, like Diane, has all of her memories come flooding back. And, just like in the woods, this causes the new universe to collapse and Cooper is right back in the Lodge, where tulpa Laura informs him that he is a patsy who is trapped forever.

But, everything that took place in the world of the Twin Peaks we knew did take place. BOB was dissipated and Cooper, Gordon, and Diane have disappeared. A fourth season would pick up after the events of the sheriff station showdown, and no one would ever know what happened to Cooper, Diane, or Gordon.

On a positive note, since tulpas have all of the memories of their creator, there is a Cooper without a soul out there taking the place of Dougie Jones who will get to have a "happy" life. Maybe Cooper knew there was a chance he would fail, so he created his tulpa so he would experience a good life. I mean, if he has all of Cooper's memories that essentially makes him indistinguishable from Cooper besides not actually being Cooper. There is a version of Cooper who gets to have a non-Lodge related life, and his only true bid at freedom knowing what we now do. Another postive is Cooper was also able to right some of the wrongs caused by the escape of his doppleganger. He fixes the lives of some of the people affected by the fallout of his failure to face the Lodge with perfect courage. The Lodge helps him do this because BOB is unnatural.

That turned out longer than I had expected and I'm not sure I've really translated what clicked in my brain, but that's my best attempt. And all of this could be blown out of the water by The Final Dossier or a Season 4 if there ever is one.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby baxter » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:23 am

I'm not expecting The Final Dossier to reveal anything at all, for some reason. Does anyone else feel that way? In principle, it could totally explain whatever Briggs was doing, and also set up the plan that Cooper/Jeffries/Briggs were working on, and that could reveal more about the finale. But I doubt that it will make anything that explicit.

I was also totally naive in expecting the actual crime scene with the dossier to feature in the series itself. Will we find out where it came from? (or maybe we did and I was just too stupid to notice!).
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:58 am

baxter wrote:I'm not expecting The Final Dossier to reveal anything at all, for some reason. Does anyone else feel that way? In principle, it could totally explain whatever Briggs was doing, and also set up the plan that Cooper/Jeffries/Briggs were working on, and that could reveal more about the finale. But I doubt that it will make anything that explicit.

I was also totally naive in expecting the actual crime scene with the dossier to feature in the series itself. Will we find out where it came from? (or maybe we did and I was just too stupid to notice!).


Yeh, I don't think the point of the books is to spell stuff out. As much as the series' plot ambiguities may infuriate some viewers, they were clearly intentional, and I doubt Mark has any notion of undermining that sense of mystery.

I do think the book will reveal a few things in surprisingly straightforward fashion (I for one was shocked that TSHoTP told us the fate of Hank, a major character from the original...but of course that's because he ended up being totally irrelevant to S3!). There were also a couple of things in the first book that were spoilerish to the new series (Frank's existence, nuclear tests being used to unleash beings from other dimensions).

Overall, I think the books are an outlet for Mark to play around with his weird interest/obsession with the occult and otherworldly. I do wonder what kind of conversations Mark and David had about what could/couldn't be talked about in the books. Sabrina Sutherland's AMA made it sound like DKL has no idea whatsoever what will be in the book!
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Manwith » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:22 am

baxter wrote:I'm not expecting The Final Dossier to reveal anything at all, for some reason. Does anyone else feel that way? In principle, it could totally explain whatever Briggs was doing, and also set up the plan that Cooper/Jeffries/Briggs were working on, and that could reveal more about the finale. But I doubt that it will make anything that explicit.

I was also totally naive in expecting the actual crime scene with the dossier to feature in the series itself. Will we find out where it came from? (or maybe we did and I was just too stupid to notice!).


I'm expecting the dossier to provide a bunch of "red herrings" mingled with potential truths or potential inaccuracies that confuse the interpretation of season 3 further. Like, the Denver Bob thing in Secret History appears to be a red herring since Bob appears to have been born when the atom bomb goes off. So everyone who read it was more confused about Bob, not less confused. I'm expecting the Final Dossier to add further confusion to everything.

Maybe it'll also have intentional continuity errors with season 3! Maybe we'll be told Linda was Audrey, not Diane, leading to more fans banging their heads against the wall about continuity errors! Maybe we'll be told Bushnell was a baseball player, not a boxer!
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Saturn's child » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:53 am

Manwith wrote:I'm expecting the dossier to provide a bunch of "red herrings" mingled with potential truths or potential inaccuracies that confuse the interpretation of season 3 further.



I hope so! I'd be rather disappointed if the final dossier pats down some of the wilder tangents/mysteries of the Return (/Season 3); if things are tied up too neatly (eg: "There's always music in the air") I'll probably read the book once before it fades out of memory & the possibilities of the Return's loose ends revives. But I have faith in Frost. After part 18 I kind of forget that there's more to come in the Peaks-verse
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Saturn's child » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:53 am

Manwith wrote:I'm expecting the dossier to provide a bunch of "red herrings" mingled with potential truths or potential inaccuracies that confuse the interpretation of season 3 further.



I hope so! I'd be rather disappointed if the final dossier pats down some of the wilder tangents/mysteries of the Return (/Season 3); if things are tied up too neatly (eg: "There's always music in the air") I'll probably read the book once before it fades out of memory & the possibilities of the Return's loose ends revives. But I have faith in Frost.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby thedarktrees » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:53 am

bowisneski wrote:
The "Laura" in the Lodge in Part two is not Laura, but a tulpa named Carrie Page who is pulled out of the Lodge, much the same way tulpa Diane is pulled out of our world, and deposited in a secluded universe. Which also means that real Laura achieved her closure and meeting with the Angels at the end of FWwM, and none of that is undone because the only Laura that Cooper interacts with is the Laura of the past and a tulpa.



This is a really interesting possibility, and one that might have something to it given the similar ways in which Laura and Diana are sort of pulled out of existence. The only thing that I think doesn't exactly work with this, is the fact that there is a connection suggested between young Laura's disappearance while following Coop in the revised FWWM scene and Laura being pulled out of the Lodge in Ep 2. The connection being, of course, that it's the exact same scream recording used in both those scenes. I always thought we were meant to think that Laura's vanishing happens at the same time as her extraction from the Black Lodge. These scenes (B&W FWWM and the Lodge stuff) are both outside any kind of conventional time, so they might correspond in that way. But maybe there is some possibility here of Carrie Paige being a tulpa.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Voided » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:57 am

bowisneski wrote:I really enjoyed the finale when I first watched it as a beautiful experience, but last night it finally all sort of clicked in to place for me. I've not read the whole thread yet, so I apologize if everything that follows is a regurgitation, but it's the interpretation I think I've settled on. Pending finishing a full read of this thread to incorporate new ideas and thoughts.

A couple things to preface my following interpretation with, I can't find the quote so I might be misremembering/it may never have been said, but I remember someone on the creative end saying something along the lines of "once you're in the Lodge, you're always in the Lodge." We've also experienced all of Twin Peaks linearly through Agent Cooper, possibly with the exception of the opening FBI bit of FWwM. Even though FWwM is a prequel, we are following Cooper's story linearly as we see him post Episode 29 interacting with Laura in the Lodge space.

The other things that cinched the following for me are the fact that everything we see in the "past" is in black and white as well as something that may be a continuity error, but I'm not sure, which is Cooper's FBI pin. He doesn't have it during his visit with the Fireman, nor during his time as Dougie through his transportation out of the sheriff's station, but then has it back when he goes to "rescue" Laura through the end of the series.



With the above in mind, I think that Cooper and Briggs(I think Diane is also included in this because she was trapped in the Lodge, but Gordon does not know that), both in Lodge space outside of time, worked together on a plan and somehow met with Gordon to fill him in and set up their plan. We now know that Gordon knew that Jeffries was no longer himself in the traditional sense, so he has either seen or been filled in about Jeffries. So, these men come up with an inherently flawed plan because they have an overall altruistic goal of defeating the mother of pain and sorrow, but being human they each have their own goals in mind as well. I think the personal goals are Cooper wants to escape the Lodge, Gordon wants to save his missing agents, and Briggs wants to prove that love is enough(that's just a guess with nothing to back it up because I'm not sure what Briggs really wants). And their personal motivations and higher goal were exploited by the Fireman to reach his own end goal. The passage below is a condensed version of what Doug Milford shares with Briggs

And don't believe anyone who tells you this all began in Roswell in '47. I'm convinced now that whatever I've glimpsed or encountered and spent my life tracking has been with us since humankind came down out of the trees. It is not something "out there" --in the president's words. They may well have once been our "neighbors from some distant star, but I believe they were here before us. .............. These final truths you must never forget: we are utterly incapable of knowing their true intent, and their true intent may not be to wish us well. It may be that they're here to guide or even aid our evolution; it's equally possible we may matter no more to them than those random protozoa in our tap water do to us. In other words, by our meager moral definitions, they may be both "good" and "evil", and those precious distinctions of ours mean nothing to them.


That passage points to the Fireman having his own non-understandable goal, but my figuring of it is as follows. Judy is a force that needs to exist in the universe, you can't free the universe of pain and sorrow, but our detonation of the atomic bomb essentially created an overload of garmonbozia causing Judy to vomit out all of the eggs and BOB(the embodiment of the evil that men do), as well as forever connecting our universes forever through the past before the detonation and after. BOB, being created from a place of pain, sorrow, and human hubris, has that hubris ingrained in him. I think he wants to usurp Judy and that is not something that the Fireman wants, because BOB isn't about balance and the universe would be flooded with garmonbozia. I would also posit that BOB uses Cooper's doppleganger as a host because Mr. C is on the same mission as Cooper(since he is his shadow self and borne of him) so they are working towards the same end of destroying Judy, they're just arriving at that want for different reasons. So the Fireman creates Laura as a trap for BOB and exploits the Blue Rose team and Briggs to achieve his end goal of dissipating and weakening BOB(I'm not convinced that Freddie defeated BOB or that any Lodge entity can be destroyed) to restore the order of the day.

Which takes us back to Cooper and the plan. Cooper believes that if his plan succeeds he won't just defeat pain and sorrow, but also save himself from the Lodge because he never would have had to enter it. This involves "saving" Laura and destroying Judy. But once you enter the Lodge you are always in the Lodge.

So, in Part 2 we see Mike ask Cooper "is it future, or is it past", and I think that everything from that point forward through Part 17/18 and the loss of Laura and Mike once again asking "is it future, or it it past" takes place in that moment, and Cooper saying "we live inside a dream" takes place in the Lodge just before that in the traditional sense of time. He says "we live inside a dream" because he realizes he lives inside of the Lodge forever in an endless waking nightmare from which there is no escape without fully divesting himself from the Lodge. So he plans to sacrifice Laura to save himself from ever traveling to the Lodge and with the thought that he will be able to defeat Judy, two birds with one stone.

The "Laura" in the Lodge in Part two is not Laura, but a tulpa named Carrie Page who is pulled out of the Lodge, much the same way tulpa Diane is pulled out of our world, and deposited in a secluded universe. Which also means that real Laura achieved her closure and meeting with the Angels at the end of FWwM, and none of that is undone because the only Laura that Cooper interacts with is the Laura of the past and a tulpa.

Back to episode 17. Cooper, Diane, and Cole are transported to the Great Northern and Cooper goes through the door to visit Jeffries. In the moment that Coop is transported from the sheriff's department, he visits the Fireman in the first scene we see this season(I think this scene could also take place during his journey through the outlet in Part 3). After their discussion, Cooper disappears in the same static-y fade that he then arrives in the past with. His FBI pin is restored to him for the journey ahead. We are now in the past since everything is in black and white. When Laura takes Coopers hand and color is restored, we are now in the "present" of a new universe that has been created(I believe that what original Laura experience is Dale disappearing as soon as she takes his hand, so she proceeds to meet with Leo, Jacques, and Ronette). However, this is something that can not happen, so Laura feels all of her pain and screams, the new universe collapses, and Cooper is transported back to the Lodge where Mike inquires of him "is it future, or is it past" and Cooper proceeds to leave the Lodge, as tulpa Laura told him he could go out, and meet with Diane, who is also unstuck from time because she was stored in the Lodge. I believe he leaves the Lodge the same night that Hawk was in Glastonbury Grove, because the Log Lady confirms to Hawk that something is supposed to be happening that night and Hawk sees the curtains in the woods. However Cooper either exits before Hawk arrives or after.

Then Cooper and Diane travel to the other place we visit in Part 18. Now possibly knowing that his first plan failed he enacts a second plan that involves traveling to a second new universe, a possibility he has discussed with Diane at some point in the Lodge, where he believes he can trap Judy. The arrive at the hotel and I think there might be a timecut between the end of the sex scene and Cooper waking up. I'm not convinced that is the next day. But that's irrelevant. So Cooper finds Carrie and they travel to the Palmer house, but when they arrive and find a Tremond as the owner, he realizes he's been played and there is no escape. Then, just as in the new universe as with in the woods, tulpa Laura, like Diane, has all of her memories come flooding back. And, just like in the woods, this causes the new universe to collapse and Cooper is right back in the Lodge, where tulpa Laura informs him that he is a patsy who is trapped forever.

But, everything that took place in the world of the Twin Peaks we knew did take place. BOB was dissipated and Cooper, Gordon, and Diane have disappeared. A fourth season would pick up after the events of the sheriff station showdown, and no one would ever know what happened to Cooper, Diane, or Gordon.

On a positive note, since tulpas have all of the memories of their creator, there is a Cooper without a soul out there taking the place of Dougie Jones who will get to have a "happy" life. Maybe Cooper knew there was a chance he would fail, so he created his tulpa so he would experience a good life. I mean, if he has all of Cooper's memories that essentially makes him indistinguishable from Cooper besides not actually being Cooper. There is a version of Cooper who gets to have a non-Lodge related life, and his only true bid at freedom knowing what we now do. Another postive is Cooper was also able to right some of the wrongs caused by the escape of his doppleganger. He fixes the lives of some of the people affected by the fallout of his failure to face the Lodge with perfect courage. The Lodge helps him do this because BOB is unnatural.

That turned out longer than I had expected and I'm not sure I've really translated what clicked in my brain, but that's my best attempt. And all of this could be blown out of the water by The Final Dossier or a Season 4 if there ever is one.


I don't understand where the idea comes from that once you are in the lodge you must stay there. Based on what? Annie reemerged from the lodge.
Just forget you ever saw it. It's better that way.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby claaa7 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:15 am

chromereflectsimage wrote:
Saturn's child wrote:
-Mr. Jackpots- wrote:
...just before he woke up in the hospital?


This works for me!

I'm thinking it's after the police station scene fades. The next shot after is Cooper Diane and Gordon walking to where Cooper reaches the basement and he suddenly now has his pin on. The Giant scene could take place between these two scenes. Cooper didn't really wake after the coma is how I saw it, hence the ridiculous take down of Mr C and Bob, plus he was almost too chipper for all that happened. The Richard version of Cooper seemed more believable, even though all he really did was trade one delusion (dissasociating MR C from Cooper) for another (accepting they are one in the same but now trying to change the past so that all the bad Mr C had done didn't happen by Laura never dying and him never coming to Twin Peaks and going into the black lodge).


Come to think about it, after The Giant says "You are far away" Cooper disappears from the chair which is illustrated by the same visual effect used in ep. 17 when Coop is transported into the B&W footage from FWWM. as far as i remember this is the only times this effect was used. Drawing a connection there works for me.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:54 am

claaa7 wrote:Come to think about it, after The Giant says "You are far away" Cooper disappears from the chair which is illustrated by the same visual effect used in ep. 17 when Coop is transported into the B&W footage from FWWM. as far as i remember this is the only times this effect was used. Drawing a connection there works for me.


Isn't that effect also used to "erase" Laura's corpse from the shore?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Panapaok » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:03 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
claaa7 wrote:Come to think about it, after The Giant says "You are far away" Cooper disappears from the chair which is illustrated by the same visual effect used in ep. 17 when Coop is transported into the B&W footage from FWWM. as far as i remember this is the only times this effect was used. Drawing a connection there works for me.


Isn't that effect also used to "erase" Laura's corpse from the shore?
It's also used when Evil Coop and the Woodsman disappear while walking the stairway that leads above the convenience store.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby bowisneski » Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:32 pm

thedarktrees wrote:
bowisneski wrote:
The "Laura" in the Lodge in Part two is not Laura, but a tulpa named Carrie Page who is pulled out of the Lodge, much the same way tulpa Diane is pulled out of our world, and deposited in a secluded universe. Which also means that real Laura achieved her closure and meeting with the Angels at the end of FWwM, and none of that is undone because the only Laura that Cooper interacts with is the Laura of the past and a tulpa.



This is a really interesting possibility, and one that might have something to it given the similar ways in which Laura and Diana are sort of pulled out of existence. The only thing that I think doesn't exactly work with this, is the fact that there is a connection suggested between young Laura's disappearance while following Coop in the revised FWWM scene and Laura being pulled out of the Lodge in Ep 2. The connection being, of course, that it's the exact same scream recording used in both those scenes. I always thought we were meant to think that Laura's vanishing happens at the same time as her extraction from the Black Lodge. These scenes (B&W FWWM and the Lodge stuff) are both outside any kind of conventional time, so they might correspond in that way. But maybe there is some possibility here of Carrie Paige being a tulpa.


That's a very good point as well, and had crossed my mind. To me, that scream is there for a dual purpose. One, the retconned universe collapsing because Laura and her pain can't be erased. Two, to tie it to the scene from Part 2 so that we know for Cooper those things are sort of happening in tandem. At that moment that that universe collapses, tulpa Laura is ripped from the Lodge and deposited to where he and Diane cross to. That's why she is nowhere to be found when we once again see Mike ask "is it future, or is it past?"

But, to be honest, that bit only popped in to my mind after I had written out the rest of my interpretation. It only came to me as I was trying to figure out how to reconcile the end of FWwM and the Laura related events of Season 3. It's more my inability to believe that Cooper pulled Laura back from her cathartic resolution in a way that would have continued to doom her to a life of abuse.

I think it's also a possibility that the retconned timeline does exist, and Laura just disappeared one night. Cooper would have still come to town because Ronnette crossed the state line and investigated, but it would have been a missing person and not a murder. And Cooper pulling her out of the original timeline also pulled her out of the Lodge and deposited her in the other place. I just personally don't like that as much because I think Coop was misguided and I don't like the idea of Laura experiencing all that. Plus the Angels and Laura are both in the vision the Fireman provides to Andy, which made me feel like that still occurred.

Voided wrote:I don't understand where the idea comes from that once you are in the lodge you must stay there. Based on what? Annie reemerged from the lodge.


And it's not so much that you have to stay there, but you are always there. Cooper enters the Lodge after Laura's murder, but is in the Lodge before her death and tells her not to take the ring, probably to save her soul from being trapped in the Lodge. I imagine that if someone entered the Lodge in the 1800's they could very well see Cooper because the Lodge is out of time. So, even if he physically leaves the Lodge he is still there. Someone could enter the Lodge 10 years from now and find 1989 Cooper wandering the Lodge. It's also possible that they could come across 1989 Annie in the Lodge.

I think that he is essentially Jeffries now. Jeffries asks them all "who do you think that is there?" because he knows Cooper is in the Lodge and he no longer has any sense of time in relation to the "real" world. He also appears to be pulled in to and out of the Lodge at random, which makes me feel that is a distinct possibility for Cooper too, and that is how Season 3 is told completely chronologically from Coopers perspective. Even though we physically see him leave the Lodge, the last thing we see is him back in the Lodge.
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zeronumber
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby zeronumber » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:30 pm

A Dream Within a Dream
By Edgar Allen Poe :

Take this kiss upon the brow!
And, in parting from you now,
Thus much let me avow-
You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream;
Yet if hope has flown away
In a night, or in a day,
In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

I stand amid the roar
Of surf-tormented shore,
Grains of golden sand-
How few! ...yet how they creep
Through my fingers to the deep,
While I weep- while I weep!
O God! Can I not grasp
Them with a tighter clasp?
O God! Can I not save
One from pitiless wave?
Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?

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Johnsusername
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:32 am

Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Johnsusername » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:59 am

Finally watched the last two episodes. I delayed my TP viewing as I was away etc.

Anyway....bloody amazing! The whole thing (expect for maybe a little dip in the middle) was dazzling television.

As for the last act - I'm not going to say I understood it, or that I would have liked more resolution, but the final scene with Cooper and Laura was unreal. It was probably the most unsettling TV I've ever watched. The last hour was (to use a cliche) totally Lynch. It was so like FWWM, MD, LH, BV I had goosebumps.

Lynch and Frost have turned Twin Peaks upside down and inside out - for good and bad, but mostly good. And it'll never be the same again.

What a ride 2017 has been.

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