Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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Jasper
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Jasper » Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:13 pm

Pöllö wrote:
boske wrote:Is there something else that we see in S3 that may explain a few things? It looks like it, we have this:

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Image


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The hand appearing in Sarah's face is actually Laura's from FWWM.



Remember these Lynch artworks from roughly 2012 or so:


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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:25 am

LateReg wrote:Perhaps Diane is attempting to not only block out her own trauma by covering Cooper's face, but also trying to keep him from removing his face to reveal the blackness within?


I don't see any signs of it being her intent to keep him from unmasking. Instead, she covers his face in the exact same places she was imprisoned by the Naido mask. Which was a metaphor for the damage a rape victim who did not speak out about their abuser. Without a voice, loss of sense of identity and self worth. Also Cooper's eyes look more like the never blinking Mr.C eyes in the scene, so Diane seems to be having trouble reconciling what is the Cooper she loves, and what is her abuser, just like in FWWM where Laura is torn between the love she feels for her father, and the hate for the monster he has allowed himself to become.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:27 am

I guess there could be even that layer of meaning to it. It is just how those hands are used, and remember the transformation of Naido to Diane in the lodge, we see a photo of Diane that is half lit and half dark. If we consider the left hand as the dark side and the right hand as the light or lit side, it would reinforce the duality that is still with Diane, she is in a nutshell still a dual/lunar figure, and she sees her shadow/doppelgänger at the motel. Her two hands there represent two halves of her "lodge mask" that she is "impressing" onto Cooper, the lit one and the dark one. It is undoubtedly a multi-layered scene, but it did not seem to me that she was being abused right there, not discounting that she may have been in the past. And yes, Cooper looks more Mr. C than "himself" with that stare.

It is also ironic that Diane's very last scene involved sexual activity considering how she told everyone she was in direct contact with to go F. themselves, from Albert (several times :lol:) to Phillip Gerard.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:17 am

My interpretation of that sex scene is pretty close to Eyeboogers’s. Diane thinks she can move past the trauma of being raped by Cooper’s double (and her subsequent fracturing of self which is pretty clearly a PTSD metaphor in my mind, as well as what Eyeboogers says about inability to speak out, loss of identity, etc.). But once she and Cooper start to have sex (whether out of an attempt to rekindle their love, or to enact some manner of sex magick, or perhaps both), she realizes she’s not past the trauma and can’t look at him. It probably doesn’t help her that he is so cold and doppel-like throughout (I think I’ve said it before, but contrast this with how warm and gentle he is in the love scene with Annie in the original series. Nothing about the Part 18 scene seems to have anything to do with love). It does seem like they’re maybe enacting a ritual there which is why he’s so focused and lacking in enjoyment, but one would like to think even under those circumstances, the Cooper we knew would be aware of what Diane was going through and would try to be a little present or supportive.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:18 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:My interpretation of that sex scene is pretty close to Eyeboogers’s. Diane thinks she can move past the trauma of being raped by Cooper’s double (and her subsequent fracturing of self which is pretty clearly a PTSD metaphor in my mind, as well as what Eyeboogers says about inability to speak out, loss of identity, etc.). But once she and Cooper start to have sex (whether out of an attempt to rekindle their love, or to enact some manner of sex magick, or perhaps both), she realizes she’s not past the trauma and can’t look at him. It probably doesn’t help her that he is so cold and doppel-like throughout (I think I’ve said it before, but contrast this with how warm and gentle he is in the love scene with Annie in the original series. Nothing about the Part 18 scene seems to have anything to do with love). It does seem like they’re maybe enacting a ritual there which is why he’s so focused and lacking in enjoyment, but one would like to think even under those circumstances, the Cooper we knew would be aware of what Diane was going through and would try to be a little present or supportive.


Same here, along the lines of yours and eyeboogers. What I had said before about unmasking was only an attempt at adding to boske's theory.

Perhaps in this moment we are even seeing Cooper the way Diane sees him. At any rate, I think it's clear that she's covering his face due to the traumatic reminder, as though it is all coming back to her in that moment, perhaps mirroring the return of Laura's trauma in her final scene, as well as demonstrating the probability/fact that Cooper and Mr. C are one and the same, or that Diane is realizing that.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:59 am

My take on Diane seeing herself/a dobbleganger outisde the hotel is that it is evidence of being caught in a loop. They've been here before trying to accomplish this. They will be here again. It is a dead end. Diane decided to run to try to live a life outside of the destructive loop (fitting with the recurring theme of showelling oneself out of the shit).
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:32 am

eyeboogers wrote:My take on Diane seeing herself/a dobbleganger outisde the hotel is that it is evidence of being caught in a loop. They've been here before trying to accomplish this. They will be here again. It is a dead end. Diane decided to run to try to live a life outside of the destructive loop (fitting with the recurring theme of showelling oneself out of the shit).


I like this.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Jerry Horne » Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:34 am

My initial thought was that Diane was disassociating right before the encounter.

I like the loop idea too and I like wondering if the car behind Richard and Carrie is Richard and Carrie. Does Judy drive a car?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:43 pm

eyeboogers wrote:My take on Diane seeing herself/a dobbleganger outisde the hotel is that it is evidence of being caught in a loop. They've been here before trying to accomplish this. They will be here again. It is a dead end. Diane decided to run to try to live a life outside of the destructive loop (fitting with the recurring theme of showelling oneself out of the shit).


Great idea! I like it a lot and it feels right.

I think I had said earlier that I felt as though it might also offer proof that they've crossed over into a lodge space, as the lodge is the only place (ideally, per the rules) where a person and their doppel may exist in the same space. I think it's also meant to signify/foreshadow that you really don't know which version of a person you might get, which I believe is how Dern herself interpreted it.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:46 pm

Jerry Horne wrote:My initial thought was that Diane was disassociating right before the encounter.

I like the loop idea too and I like wondering if the car behind Richard and Carrie is Richard and Carrie. Does Judy drive a car?


Also great idea!
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:03 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
LateReg wrote:I never specifically logged the white horse, or made the Billy connection, but I have mentioned the two guns thing, and have wondered the same thing regarding the breakdown of multiple realities. I could be wrong, but I thought we could trace where both the 2nd and 3rd cowboys' guns are on the floor. If that is the case, it would be very strange if it were a continuity error since the sequence would likely be shot chronologically. That said, it's strange because I looked for all this on my recent viewing and I didn't notice the two guns thing for the first time since I first noticed it, and I thought I might have somehow been wrong this whole time!


No, only one Cowboy's gun is on the floor.

Cowboy 1 draws his gun; Cooper kicks him in the groin and takes his gun, placing it on the table.
Cowboy 2 reaches toward his rear waistband, and Cooper shoots him in the foot. His gun is never seen until it magically appears in Cooper's hand behind the counter.
Cooper tells Cowboy 3 (Jagwar Cop!) to put his gun on the floor, and Cooper picks it up.


Okay, I have new info on this that proves neither of us was totally correct. Cowboy 2 indeed drops his gun. He takes it out and nearly shoots it. It's very fast thanks both to movement and editing, but it is in his hand and drops it as Cooper shoots him - I rewound and slow motioned it. However, there is only one gun on the floor afterwards, that belonging to the third cowboy, which Cooper picks up, as you said. He carries what appears to be two guns (other than his own) over to the fry cooker, but later places three in the fry cooker. This is another genuine continuity mystery, since one suspects it was shot in sequence.

My major thought during this viewing is something I had been brewing for some time. Why was the decision made to not have Parts 17 and 18 play as one continuous film, as they did with Parts 1 and 2, and 3 and 4? This is a structural choice that Lynch had to have made with some intent. Had he wanted both parts to play continuously but thought that the beginning of Part 18 was redundant, he could have easily edited them in the first place so that the scene of Cooper losing Laura in the woods only plays once, in one episode or the other. Or, even, just left it exactly as is so that he loses Laura, followed by "The World Spins," followed by Mr. C burning and Dougie returning home, followed by Cooper again losing Laura in the woods, despite occurring within minutes of the same footage at the end of Part 17. This could have worked, too, perhaps even more mysteriously...or perhaps less so, had it given the game away to get us thinking that things are for sure happening multiple times, over and over again. At any rate, I think it's a fairly important question as to why Lynch never intended on branching the two Parts as he did with the first four installments, and I'd like to know why.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:23 pm

LateReg wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
LateReg wrote:I never specifically logged the white horse, or made the Billy connection, but I have mentioned the two guns thing, and have wondered the same thing regarding the breakdown of multiple realities. I could be wrong, but I thought we could trace where both the 2nd and 3rd cowboys' guns are on the floor. If that is the case, it would be very strange if it were a continuity error since the sequence would likely be shot chronologically. That said, it's strange because I looked for all this on my recent viewing and I didn't notice the two guns thing for the first time since I first noticed it, and I thought I might have somehow been wrong this whole time!


No, only one Cowboy's gun is on the floor.

Cowboy 1 draws his gun; Cooper kicks him in the groin and takes his gun, placing it on the table.
Cowboy 2 reaches toward his rear waistband, and Cooper shoots him in the foot. His gun is never seen until it magically appears in Cooper's hand behind the counter.
Cooper tells Cowboy 3 (Jagwar Cop!) to put his gun on the floor, and Cooper picks it up.


Okay, I have new info on this that proves neither of us was totally correct. Cowboy 2 indeed drops his gun. He takes it out and nearly shoots it. It's very fast thanks both to movement and editing, but it is in his hand and drops it as Cooper shoots him - I rewound and slow motioned it. However, there is only one gun on the floor afterwards, that belonging to the third cowboy, which Cooper picks up, as you said. He carries what appears to be two guns (other than his own) over to the fry cooker, but later places three in the fry cooker. This is another genuine continuity mystery, since one suspects it was shot in sequence.


You are correct! I completely missed those few blurry frames of the gun in Cowboy 2’s hand. Hrrm. Also note that in the “Behind the Curtain” material, Kyle rehearses the scene (in a T shirt) and picks up two guns (or mimes picking up two guns; it’s not clear from the angle if the guns are actually there).

My major thought during this viewing is something I had been brewing for some time. Why was the decision made to not have Parts 17 and 18 play as one continuous film, as they did with Parts 1 and 2, and 3 and 4? This is a structural choice that Lynch had to have made with some intent. Had he wanted both parts to play continuously but thought that the beginning of Part 18 was redundant, he could have easily edited them in the first place so that the scene of Cooper losing Laura in the woods only plays once, in one episode or the other. Or, even, just left it exactly as is so that he loses Laura, followed by "The World Spins," followed by Mr. C burning and Dougie returning home, followed by Cooper again losing Laura in the woods, despite occurring within minutes of the same footage at the end of Part 17. This could have worked, too, perhaps even more mysteriously...or perhaps less so, had it given the game away to get us thinking that things are for sure happening multiple times, over and over again. At any rate, I think it's a fairly important question as to why Lynch never intended on branching the two Parts as he did with the first four installments, and I'd like to know why.


I’ve wondered this too; I would so love a Lynch-approved edit with those two Parts put together. My guess is essentially what you imply: he wanted to preserve the ambiguity of whether or not the repeated scene signifies a time loop or if it was just a trope of episodic television to replay the scene as a “recap.” By presenting the two Parts as a continuous work, Lynch would essentially have to come down on one side or the other by deciding whether to repeat the scene. Maybe he preferred to leave the question open-ended?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:17 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
You are correct! I completely missed those few blurry frames of the gun in Cowboy 2’s hand. Hrrm. Also note that in the “Behind the Curtain” material, Kyle rehearses the scene (in a T shirt) and picks up two guns (or mimes picking up two guns; it’s not clear from the angle if the guns are actually there)...

I’ve wondered this too; I would so love a Lynch-approved edit with those two Parts put together. My guess is essentially what you imply: he wanted to preserve the ambiguity of whether or not the repeated scene signifies a time loop or if it was just a trope of episodic television to replay the scene as a “recap.” By presenting the two Parts as a continuous work, Lynch would essentially have to come down on one side or the other by deciding whether to repeat the scene. Maybe he preferred to leave the question open-ended?


Re: Kyle and two guns in the rehearsal, I had forgotten about that. It certainly makes this discussion even more interesting.

As far as the non-existence of a joint Parts 17/18, another reason may be that he and Frost really want the viewer to think of the two parts as completely separate since, as many have pointed out, they sort of offer two different, mirrored finales. There's the ideal, things changed, mission (nearly) accomplished ending of Part 17 that some fans might prefer, and then the totally unsteady, anything can happen, something went wrong finale of Part 18. Part 17 opens with exposition and moves at a brisk pace; Part 18 is inexplicable, slow and nearly wordless.

I will say, Sarah smashing that photo would have made for a uniquely haunting, visceral conclusion to Part 17 - albeit one similar in intensity to the conclusions of the screaming girl in 15 and the Audrey smash cut in 16 - but it was apparently important for Lynch to add Laura's disappearance right after that to conclude the episode...only to repeat it at the beginning of the next.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:29 pm

LateReg wrote:I will say, Sarah smashing that photo would have made for a uniquely haunting, visceral conclusion to Part 17 - albeit one similar in intensity to the conclusions of the screaming girl in 15 and the Audrey smash cut in 16 - but it was apparently important for Lynch to add Laura's disappearance right after that to conclude the episode...only to repeat it at the beginning of the next.


I think it was important that Sarah’s actions be directly tied to Laura’s ambiguous disappearance. The use of “The World Spins” ties these events to Episode 14, linking instances of both of Laura’s parents “killing” some version of her (and Cooper failing to stop it).

One thing I really wonder is whether Lynch, on that September 2015 night in Washington when he improvised the photo-stabbing scene, knew what the context was going to be. That might end up being one of the most pivotal scenes of the entire 18 hours, and he seemingly shot it on a complete whim. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve watched the brief behind the scenes clip of him and Grace on the night of that shoot. There was something incredibly disturbing in the air that you can almost feel through the screen as you watch them talk.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:45 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
LateReg wrote:I will say, Sarah smashing that photo would have made for a uniquely haunting, visceral conclusion to Part 17 - albeit one similar in intensity to the conclusions of the screaming girl in 15 and the Audrey smash cut in 16 - but it was apparently important for Lynch to add Laura's disappearance right after that to conclude the episode...only to repeat it at the beginning of the next.


I think it was important that Sarah’s actions be directly tied to Laura’s ambiguous disappearance. The use of “The World Spins” ties these events to Episode 14, linking instances of both of Laura’s parents “killing” some version of her (and Cooper failing to stop it).

One thing I really wonder is whether Lynch, on that September 2015 night in Washington when he improvised the photo-stabbing scene, knew what the context was going to be. That might end up being one of the most pivotal scenes of the entire 18 hours, and he seemingly shot it on a complete whim. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve watched the brief behind the scenes clip of him and Grace on the night of that shoot. There was something incredibly disturbing in the air that you can almost feel through the screen as you watch them talk.


Yes, for sure. I always seem to think her smashing the photo is more the result of Laura being saved in the first place. She is mourning her life, whereas in the original pilot she was mourning her death. How exactly the picture smashing is tied to the next scene's disappearance is a bit more ambiguous for me.

Thanks for the interesting observation on the behind the scenes, too. I've only seen that clip once.

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