Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby ThumbsUp » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:31 pm

Hester Prynne wrote:
Firewalkwithme91 wrote:
Audrey Horne wrote:Ah, okay... do you think Lynch and Forst had it defined... because it's pretty ambiguous to give it dramatic urgency and weight.


Your guess is as good as mine. However, for some reason the scene where Mr. C shows Darya the card in episode 2 has always stuck in my mind throughout this whole run whenever I saw Mr. C investigating coordinates. It feels like his overall goal is to find that thing on the card which we assume is the Experiment.


He is trying to find his mother. Judy is his mother, but he doesn't know which form she inhabits. The coordinates lead to Judy, who has inhabited Sarah Palmer. I think that is why we see the Palmer House when Mr. C tries to get there through the White Lodge, but the Fireman intervenes and sends him to the Sheriff's Dept instead to be killed. Sarah Palmer/Judy is heard mourning off camera and then visciously attacks Laura's picture because her son, Bob, has died, and Laura played a part in his demise and lives while he does not. She then seeks vengeance by banishing Laura to a different existence. The Fireman sends Coop and Diane to bring her back - I don't know how Diane plays into this - but Judy's power still reigns. This is my best guess!


Yeah, I think you nailed it. But again, the most glaring weakness story-wise for me is Diane. Why does Diane go with him on the final journey? Because they were both trapped for 25 years and made the plan? In that case, I still wish they would've incorporated Audrey, as her scenario was the same as Diane's.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby MathewRenault » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:35 pm

Diane wrote:I think part 17 was the ending. Part 18 is something else.


Hi Everyone. Been lurking for years and have finally bit the bullet baby and joined.

Still trying to process the finale but the above quote stands out to me because that's kind of the feeling I got watching Part 18. Obviously it wasn't but it almost felt like it was a special one off follow up episode made after The Return.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby vicksvapor77 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:40 pm

baxter wrote:On waking this morning, I felt a simple reading of the finale that seems more simple than most of what has been posted here.

What can Cooper do once he has resolved everything (part 17). He can't just retire. He has learnt a lot more about the structure of reality (and its many layers/levels) from his time traversing these strange places. So he carries on his work. Maybe he was always intending to do that,since its his job as a Blue Rose agent. Indeed, that's basically what Briggs was doing. Briggs discovered Judy, and the Blue Rose team are still involved in tracking it down as a threat and responding to it. In some mysterious way that I can't fathom, Laura is a pawn/tool in that fight, as illustrated by her manufacture by the Fireman who is guiding Cooper with clues, exactly as he did in S1 and S2. The only difference in S3 is that we have explicitly seen Cooper interacting with him in a very knowing way.

I don't see Part 18 as a bad ending at all. It's a glimpse of what Cooper has to do next- continue his work in finding Laura and continuing the hunt for/fight against Judy. It's not in fact a closed ending- its an open ending intended to keep a S4 on the cards, but if it has to stop no problem. We now know what Cooper is up to.

The transitional scene in the Sherrif's station is where Cooper takes his leave to continue his fight. Jeffries did the same thing in FWWM, but we saw it from an outsiders perspective. In Part 17, we saw it from an insiders perspective, along with the massive confusion of what transferring between these realities actually feels like. That's why there are so many parallels between those two scenes (similar dialogue,the shout "Gordon!" from Cooper, "we live inside a dream", etc).

At some level, this is about a fight between good and evil across the planes of reality, which should appear as confusing and awe-inspiring as it does.


In your eyes, does the ending undo the entirety of the original series and all of this season up until Cooper goes back to save Laura? That's my biggest issue with it all so far. I don't want to revisit the original series or even this season and realize it all means nothing in the end. What a slap in the face and disservice to the original beautiful and haunting story.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby lotjx2 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:42 pm

So, I had to phone a friend to understand what happened, because my feed got jumbled. So, Lynch pulled a JJ Star Trek move. Our original timeline is safe. Bob is destroyed. Mr. C is returned to the lodge and Dale returns to save Diane. Dale even gets a moment with the people he loves. Then he jumps worlds on his own with Diane and Cole?!! He finds Diane in the Black Lodge, but not Cole who may or may not be stuck there. Diane and Cooper return back to the original timeline to perform the ritual that causes him to Firewalk (Cross Worlds) with Diane to become Richard and Linda. There we get Twin Peak Beta where everything is fucked up. Dale thinks he time traveled, but in reality he is in a different plane of existence.

The happy ending is Twin Peaks Alpha is safe. Bob will no longer influence that world. The Twin Peaks police department is still standing with all of our heroes. Norma and Big Ed are together. We even have a piece of good Dale in Dougie returning to Jane-E and Sonny Jim. So, its all good, right?!

WROOOONGG!!!!!!

Becky is probably dead and her parents don't know plus neither do we. There is still a large drug cartel working in Twin Peaks. Audrey may or may not be stuck between both worlds. Sara Palmer is still possessed. On top of Dale, Diane and Laura being stuck in Twin Peaks Beta without any real way to get back home. Even if you take Twin Peaks Beta out of the equation, there are still major problems in Twin Peaks Alpha, one of which is Sara Palmer. The more I think about it, the less I think ending it this way was a good idea. If anything just destroy the Sara Palmer problem. Oh yeah..Cole is still in the Waiting Room. The Fuck.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby vicksvapor77 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:43 pm

Hester Prynne wrote:
He is trying to find his mother. Judy is his mother, but he doesn't know which form she inhabits. The coordinates lead to Judy, who has inhabited Sarah Palmer. I think that is why we see the Palmer House when Mr. C tries to get there through the White Lodge, but the Fireman intervenes and sends him to the Sheriff's Dept instead to be killed. Sarah Palmer/Judy is heard mourning off camera and then visciously attacks Laura's picture because her son, Bob, has died, and Laura played a part in his demise and lives while he does not. She then seeks vengeance by banishing Laura to a different existence. The Fireman sends Coop and Diane to bring her back - I don't know how Diane plays into this - but Judy's power still reigns. This is my best guess!


This makes some sense to me! But didn't we see Mr. C looking at his phone that lead him to the gold circle? Meaning the coordinates led him there, not the Palmer house, right? And what about tulpa Diane sending him the full coordinates and saying "I hope this works"? Was she helping trap him? If so, how did she know to and why?

In your eyes, does the ending undo the entirety of the original series and all of this season up until Cooper goes back to save Laura? That's my biggest issue with it all so far. I don't want to revisit the original series or even this season and realize it all means nothing in the end. What a slap in the face and disservice to the original beautiful and haunting story.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby cgs027 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:46 pm

Hercousin wrote:I believe everything still stands. Laura's original situation and suffering and murder happened.


So, what was the deal with Sarah Palmer's freak-out if everything went as normal in the original "reality"? I almost took that as Judy freaking out that she had been thwarted. But if Laura was still murdered, etc., I don't see why Sarah's path would have changed at all.

Unless we start speculating that the lodge had a tulpa version of Laura get sacrificed, while the real one was hidden in this alternate dimension. (And Judy/Sarah somehow caught wind of that when Laura got sucked out of the lodge?).
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Hercousin » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:02 pm

cgs027 wrote:
Hercousin wrote:I believe everything still stands. Laura's original situation and suffering and murder happened.


So, what was the deal with Sarah Palmer's freak-out if everything went as normal in the original "reality"? I almost took that as Judy freaking out that she had been thwarted. But if Laura was still murdered, etc., I don't see why Sarah's path would have changed at all.

Unless we start speculating that the lodge had a tulpa version of Laura get sacrificed, while the real one was hidden in this alternate dimension. (And Judy/Sarah somehow caught wind of that when Laura got sucked out of the lodge?).


I don't know. I'll have to rewatch. I'm just saying that in whatever time loop we ended on, Judy was calling the shots. The stabbing of the photo didn't seem like defeat. Maybe Sarah was trying to destroy the photo representing her pain, a reminder of the pain that drew Judy to her.

I'm probably wrong.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Cipher » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:05 pm

Audrey Horne wrote:What did Mr. C actually want?

Some kind of reuniting with Judy (unknown to Mr. C by that name), for unknown/unimportant supernatural shenanigans. (He almost gets to the Palmer house at the end, as it's one of the locations on the Fireman's screen, but he's redirected to the sherrif's station instead).

At this point I'm sure doesn't matter (delightfully so). For all his posturing, he was as ineffectual against the greater supernatural forces of the series as genuine Cooper is--never fully understanding his own obstacles or goals, wandering easily into traps. He finds the White Lodge, and it easily and utterly destroys him.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:10 pm

vicksvapor77 wrote:In your eyes, does the ending undo the entirety of the original series and all of this season up until Cooper goes back to save Laura? That's my biggest issue with it all so far.


I don't think so, no. I think Cooper and Diane very, very clearly cross over into Cooper's altered timeline in part 18, after he goes back to 1989. As he says, once they cross everything will be different. And it is - the house is not Sarah's, there is no RR2GO, etc. I think the original timeline of Twin Peaks is just fine post-17, but now Cooper and Diane have gone missing again.

I do think Sarah/Judy was raging at Cooper's attempt to save Laura and undo her evil. But I don't know that Judy personally warped the new timeline. I personally feel Cooper made the fundamental prideful mistake himself - changing the past - and that Judy and the Lodge capitalized on it after (the diner in Odessa, the Tremonds/Chalfonts, etc).
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby ThumbsUp » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:11 pm

Cipher wrote:
Audrey Horne wrote:What did Mr. C actually want?

Some kind of reuniting with Judy (unknown to Mr. C by that name), for unknown/unimportant supernatural shenanigans. (He almost gets to the Palmer house at the end, as it's one of the locations on the Fireman's screen, but he's redirected to the sherrif's station instead).

At this point I'm sure doesn't matter (delightfully so). For all his posturing, he was as ineffectual against the greater supernatural forces of the series as genuine Cooper is--never fully understanding his own obstacles or goals, wandering easily into traps. He finds the White Lodge, and it easily and utterly destroys him.


Yeah, I guess he's actually not unlike Dougie in that way. Interesting how flashes of all three Coopversions pop up within each other, and we see all three simultaneously at Judy's diner. One and the same.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby ThumbsUp » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:13 pm

N. Needleman wrote:
vicksvapor77 wrote:In your eyes, does the ending undo the entirety of the original series and all of this season up until Cooper goes back to save Laura? That's my biggest issue with it all so far.


I don't think so, no. I think Cooper and Diane very, very clearly cross over into Cooper's altered timeline in part 18, after he goes back to 1989.


Do you think, or do you think it's a third timeline altogether? Twin Peaks and the Palmer house are different. But Sarah clearly means something to Carrie. How do you guys reckon Laura became Carrie?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:14 pm

ThumbsUp wrote:the most glaring weakness story-wise for me is Diane. Why does Diane go with him on the final journey? Because they were both trapped for 25 years and made the plan? In that case, I still wish they would've incorporated Audrey, as her scenario was the same as Diane's.


I think Audrey might have been even more impactful, but I was very happy with Diane's (horrifying) role as presented. She is pressured to submit romantically (both in 17 and 18 - Diane does not look too thrilled to kiss Cooper at first in the station, IMO) to a man who has not reconciled himself to his culpability in her violation, then watches first him and then herself disappear into nightmarish reflections of themselves, with Cooper's worst self rampant again and Diane finally losing her own sense of identity and vanishing into the night.

I'm not sure I would've wanted to see Audrey deconstructed and left in a hellish, identity-annihilated netherworld like that. I think a lot of fans would've been even more pissed and heartbroken. Talk about nightmares within nightmares.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby dontlooknow » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:16 pm

cooper is one gun safety nightmare ...
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:17 pm

ThumbsUp wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:
vicksvapor77 wrote:In your eyes, does the ending undo the entirety of the original series and all of this season up until Cooper goes back to save Laura? That's my biggest issue with it all so far.


I don't think so, no. I think Cooper and Diane very, very clearly cross over into Cooper's altered timeline in part 18, after he goes back to 1989.


Do you think, or do you think it's a third timeline altogether? Twin Peaks and the Palmer house are different. But Sarah clearly means something to Carrie. How do you guys reckon Laura became Carrie?


I think it's the timeline Cooper made with his hero bullshit. The universe reacted violently to Laura not dying and created a warped reality with all new people. Cooper and Diane should exist in that world too, but instead she's Linda and he should be Richard.

I think Carrie is a sort of fucked-up reconstruction or echo of the original Laura Palmer thanks to Cooper (and possibly Judy's) meddling. She's not quite right and prone to savage violence. I don't know if Carrie consciously knows anything about Sarah or the Palmers - it may be a subconscious reaction.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby ThumbsUp » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:18 pm

N. Needleman wrote:
ThumbsUp wrote:the most glaring weakness story-wise for me is Diane. Why does Diane go with him on the final journey? Because they were both trapped for 25 years and made the plan? In that case, I still wish they would've incorporated Audrey, as her scenario was the same as Diane's.


I think Audrey might have been even more impactful, but I was very happy with Diane's (horrifying) role as presented. She is pressured to submit romantically (both in 17 and 18 - Diane does not look too thrilled to kiss Cooper at first in the station, IMO) to a man who has not reconciled himself to his culpability in her violation, then watches first him and then herself disappear into nightmarish reflections of themselves, with Cooper's worst self rampant again and Diane finally losing her own sense of identity and vanishing into the night.


Damn, great response. Can't remember if we talked about this already earlier in the thread, but it'd fit with Diane's preexisting role as bodiless and identity-less and whose very existence is unclear.

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