'Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier' Novel by Mark Frost 10/31 (SPOILERS)

Moderators: Annie, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne, Brad D

User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 1553
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: 'Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier' Novel by Mark Frost 10/31 (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:13 pm

At the beginning of the “Double R” chapter, Tammy says the motive for the old dossier’s misdirection re: Norma’s family history may have been related to a “high-level security issue.” Unless she’s implying that the Double wrote Cooper’s “Andrew Packard File,” I don’t know what this could be referring to.
Manwith
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:04 pm

Re: 'Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier' Novel by Mark Frost 10/31 (SPOILERS)

Postby Manwith » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:21 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Manwith wrote:Frost implies the world will end if Judy and Bob meet, so I don't think she's been harboring Sarah until recently, the frog has been dormant.


The world will end if Judy and Ba’al meet, right? I never got the sense that Bob was Ba’al/Beelzebub/the devil. In the old show/FWWM, he’s a lesser demon who is accountable to MfAP/Mike. In the new show, he’s one of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of eggs Judy spawns — one of her many children, not her equal.



Tammy presents this theory in the new book for dopplecoop's motivation. It's literally the only theory Frost works into the book. The lack of any alternative theory suggests Frost wants us to take it as more likely than not, though you are free to ignore it if you want. Tammy is correct about Dopplecoop being possessed so Frost doesn't present her as out of left field.

While Bob was a lesser demon on the old show, once they started using messianic symbolism for Laura in the new show all bets were off. Frost also uses anti-christ symbolism with the Moon child stuff in Secret History.


If Bob is a demonic anti-christ being a child wouldn't necessarily make him inferior to his Mom. We never see the other spawns clearly but it seems Bob is the only one that concerns the Giant enough to zoom in on him.
Last edited by Manwith on Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 1553
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: 'Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier' Novel by Mark Frost 10/31 (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:24 pm

Manwith wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Manwith wrote:I always thought it was pretty clear Cooper changed history in Season 3. I know it's a bit ambiguous but the main fan argument that Cooper didn't seemed to be the Star Trek producers claim there are two timelines on Star Trek, and therefore we should consider Twin Peaks's time travel like Star Trek's...

It seemed to argue time wasn't changed you had to compare Twin Peaks to some other franchise's treatment of time travel, or something...

I know it's ambiguous but there isn't anything to suggest Star Trek rules apply...


The concept of the multiverse is a theory held by many prominent physicists, including Stephen Hawking. Look, this material is admittedly several country miles away from the Pilot or even FWWM conceptually, and it’s a fair critique to say that the franchise’s emotional resonance, and even the existing mythology prior to S3, has been watered down and tainted with overindulgence in more common/predictable sci-fi and fantasy concepts. But several detractors have seemingly made the argument that multiverses are solely the domain of Star Trek and Marvel Comics, and this annoys me. The multiverse isn’t a J. J. Abrams creation, it’s a widely respected and debated scientific hypothesis of which Mark Frost is certainly very aware.


I don't think the multiverse theory has anything to do with time travel...


I’m far from being a physicist, but my layman understanding is that in quantum physics, there is a great deal of overlap between the multiverse theory and hypothetical concepts of time travel (albeit more on the submolecular level).
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 1553
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: 'Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier' Novel by Mark Frost 10/31 (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:35 pm

Manwith wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Manwith wrote:Frost implies the world will end if Judy and Bob meet, so I don't think she's been harboring Sarah until recently, the frog has been dormant.


The world will end if Judy and Ba’al meet, right? I never got the sense that Bob was Ba’al/Beelzebub/the devil. In the old show/FWWM, he’s a lesser demon who is accountable to MfAP/Mike. In the new show, he’s one of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of eggs Judy spawns — one of her many children, not her equal.



Tammy presents this theory in the new book for dopplecoop's motivation. It's literally the only theory Frost works into the book. The lack of any alternative theory suggests Frost wants us to take it as more likely than not, though you are free to ignore it if you want. Tammy is correct about Dopplecoop being possessed so Frost doesn't present her as out of left field.


I disagree. Reading between the lines, I can see where you’re coming from. But the only “motive” Tammy presents for the Double’s actions is that he is looking for the “Grand Central Station” vortex/portal, and that he desires greater power — perhaps immortality (p. 110). Later she talks about Ba’al, but there is no overtly stated reference to Bob or the Double’s motives in this context, and certainly no indication that the doppel wants to destroy the world.
Manwith
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:04 pm

Re: 'Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier' Novel by Mark Frost 10/31 (SPOILERS)

Postby Manwith » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:50 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Manwith wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
The world will end if Judy and Ba’al meet, right? I never got the sense that Bob was Ba’al/Beelzebub/the devil. In the old show/FWWM, he’s a lesser demon who is accountable to MfAP/Mike. In the new show, he’s one of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of eggs Judy spawns — one of her many children, not her equal.



Tammy presents this theory in the new book for dopplecoop's motivation. It's literally the only theory Frost works into the book. The lack of any alternative theory suggests Frost wants us to take it as more likely than not, though you are free to ignore it if you want. Tammy is correct about Dopplecoop being possessed so Frost doesn't present her as out of left field.


I disagree. Reading between the lines, I can see where you’re coming from. But the only “motive” Tammy presents for the Double’s actions is that he is looking for the “Grand Central Station” vortex/portal, and that he desires greater power — perhaps immortality (p. 110). Later she talks about Ba’al, but there is no overtly stated reference to Bob or the Double’s motives in this context, and certainly no indication that the doppel wants to destroy the world.


Well, as far as the grand central station theory- any suggestion that means Dopplecoop had the same motivation as Windom Earle is one I ignored as terrible writing. "Find the evil place of power and be powerful" had been done ready, so I dismissed the idea Frost could simply be recycling the same plot in season 3 and focused on the anti-christ end the world thing as a preferred theory.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 1553
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: 'Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier' Novel by Mark Frost 10/31 (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:01 pm

Interestingly, Mark/Tammy seems to be heavily hinting that Vivian chose Ernie because he would blow Hank’s spot and get Norma’s husband into trouble (which is spiteful but also a perhaps unintentional mission of mercy towards Norma).....then the book abruptly changes gears and implies that Vivian got Ernie and Hank together so that Vivian could “neatly shed a suddenly inconvenient husband.” Huh?! Ernie acts as a cooperating FBI informant, then Vivian divorces him. How exactly did Ernie’s history with Hank have any bearing on their marriage?
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 1553
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: 'Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier' Novel by Mark Frost 10/31 (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:04 pm

Manwith wrote:Well, as far as the grand central station theory- any suggestion that means Dopplecoop had the same motivation as Windom Earle is one I ignored as terrible writing. "Find the evil place of power and be powerful" had been done ready, so I dismissed the idea Frost could simply be recycling the same plot in season 3 and focused on the anti-christ end the world thing as a preferred theory.



Like I said, I get where you’re reading between the lines, but “Ba’al=Bob” is FAR from overtly stated fact.
Aerozhul
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:07 am

Re: 'Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier' Novel by Mark Frost 10/31 (SPOILERS)

Postby Aerozhul » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:59 pm

Just finished this and have to say that I'm glad that we got answers to so many questions that were kind of infuriatingly left hanging in the air. I don't think that this de-mystified The Return at all, I think it leaves things just ambiguous enough.

A few thoughts:

- Very sad endings for most of the characters - Annie especially, but also Donna, Audrey, Will, Ben. What happened with the Haywards is a bit shocking - the events that unfolded in their living room in Season 2 really tore things apart that badly? Doc leaving town and divorcing his wife? Donna and Eileen never speaking again? Wow.

- Kudos to whomever upthread caught the meta-commentary on Annie's annual "I'm fine" declaration - as I read it I found it interesting, but didn't connect that this is essentially the answer to the 26-year-old question, "How's Annie?". Hilarious!

- Who killed Leo? We'll never know, but it sounds like someone that was in the FBI. I can't see Windom doing it, like the theory that it was DoppelCoop.

- Lots of continuity errors and sloppy mistakes, most of which have been covered here already. Does no one go back and check for errors? Lots of character ages messed up, but also states that Ben at the Haywards happened after the bank explosion, which we all know actually occurred the night before.

- Like the idea that Phillip Jeffries' appearance in the Philadelphia offices was him time-traveling from the future. Should have been obvious to me prior, but wasn't.

- No follow up on Bobby/Shelly, even though it stated there would be follow up

- John Justice Wheeler appears to have been retconned out of existence

- Donna's chapter is eerily similar to LFB's own career trajectory - I'm sure that was intentional.

- Sarah confirmed as frog-bug girl! This creates all kinds of new questions about Judy/BOB co-habitation.
Agent Earle
Posts: 699
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:55 am

Re: 'Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier' Novel by Mark Frost 10/31 (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:51 am

So, basically, sloppiness and retconning all around. SIGH. So much for the "it's all intentional" theory, which circulated around the publication of TSHOTP.
User avatar
Xavi
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:23 am

Re: 'Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier' Novel by Mark Frost 10/31 (SPOILERS)

Postby Xavi » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:05 am

The suggestion that TFD provides "final" or "definitive" answers feels wrong, dead wrong. Take for example the 1956 girl, who has been identified in the book as Sarah. This ruins (almost) the horrifying undercurrent in that mystique intercourse scene between Diane and Dale. The score by the Platters "My Prayer" creates a gut feeling that this event somehow is being connected to that innocent boy and girl, that were engaged in their first kiss and all what happened thereafter, instigated by the radio and the frog-moth, that crept inside.

Diane and Dale's love making scene/ritual resonates a hell lot of other moments as well; like Tracey and Sam's love scene where "fear/Mother/Experiment" blew their minds, like Mr C and Jack's bizarre lethal facial massage, like Cooper and Naido's tender encounter in the mauve world.

In a metaphysical or perhaps psychological sense Diane and Dale destroyed, in that night, the world as we knew it, to arriving in a world driven by madness ~ Jeffrey Phillips' world.
User avatar
mtwentz
Posts: 1378
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:02 am

Re: 'Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier' Novel by Mark Frost 10/31 (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:49 am

Agent Earle wrote:So, basically, sloppiness and retconning all around. SIGH. So much for the "it's all intentional" theory, which circulated around the publication of TSHOTP.


Laura from the Missing Pieces: "What a downer you are!"
User avatar
mtwentz
Posts: 1378
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:02 am

Re: 'Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier' Novel by Mark Frost 10/31 (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:53 am

Aerozhul wrote:Just finished this and have to say that I'm glad that we got answers to so many questions that were kind of infuriatingly left hanging in the air. I don't think that this de-mystified The Return at all, I think it leaves things just ambiguous enough.

A few thoughts:

- Very sad endings for most of the characters - Annie especially, but also Donna, Audrey, Will, Ben. What happened with the Haywards is a bit shocking - the events that unfolded in their living room in Season 2 really tore things apart that badly? Doc leaving town and divorcing his wife? Donna and Eileen never speaking again? Wow.

- Kudos to whomever upthread caught the meta-commentary on Annie's annual "I'm fine" declaration - as I read it I found it interesting, but didn't connect that this is essentially the answer to the 26-year-old question, "How's Annie?". Hilarious!

- Who killed Leo? We'll never know, but it sounds like someone that was in the FBI. I can't see Windom doing it, like the theory that it was DoppelCoop.

- Lots of continuity errors and sloppy mistakes, most of which have been covered here already. Does no one go back and check for errors? Lots of character ages messed up, but also states that Ben at the Haywards happened after the bank explosion, which we all know actually occurred the night before.

- Like the idea that Phillip Jeffries' appearance in the Philadelphia offices was him time-traveling from the future. Should have been obvious to me prior, but wasn't.

- No follow up on Bobby/Shelly, even though it stated there would be follow up

- John Justice Wheeler appears to have been retconned out of existence

- Donna's chapter is eerily similar to LFB's own career trajectory - I'm sure that was intentional.

- Sarah confirmed as frog-bug girl! This creates all kinds of new questions about Judy/BOB co-habitation.


Anyone who thought Annie was going to have a 'happy' ending in the traditional sense was delusional. For sure, she was either dead, in hiding or in an insane asylum. The way Frost wrote her ending was about as happy as you can get.

Donna and James trevails were pretty consistent with what we might infer in the series.

At the end of the day, Frost's Twin Peaks is a very well done nighttime drama, and 'happy endings' are frankly quite boring and not really worth writing about :-)
cgs027
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:14 pm

Re: 'Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier' Novel by Mark Frost 10/31 (SPOILERS)

Postby cgs027 » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:36 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:At the beginning of the “Double R” chapter, Tammy says the motive for the old dossier’s misdirection re: Norma’s family history may have been related to a “high-level security issue.” Unless she’s implying that the Double wrote Cooper’s “Andrew Packard File,” I don’t know what this could be referring to.


I noticed this, as well. Very strange, especially since it never follows up on this when it indicates it will at a later point. I don't see how Mr.C could have written this, given that Briggs escaped with the dossier (or at least the initial contents of it) prior to Mr.C getting a hold of him. This would leave the only possibility being that Mr.C found the completed dossier before the FBI did and doctored up certain parts of it, but left the rest intact. Pretty sure he would have just burned (and/or taken for himself) the friggin thing if he found it...

I almost wondered if it was referring to Cooper being wary of giving the whereabouts of Annie away, but don't see why that would be classified as a "high level security issue."
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 1553
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: 'Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier' Novel by Mark Frost 10/31 (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:57 am

Some more random thoughts as I flip through the book again:

If Jacoby started selling golden shovels in 2015, this cuts against the series being 2014.

I dislike the revelation that Jacoby gives his golden shovel proceeds to charity. This kills the amusing hypocrisy/irony of the series, which was a big part of the gag. Mark really wants to make Jacoby a good guy.

I think this is the first time we’ve learned that the Evelyn storyline took place in Oregon. FWIW.

I like the implication that Gordon helped get James out of jail in Mexico.

Odd that Mark compares Jacoby to Anthony Robbins (a seemingly well-meaning “life coach”), and not to any of the more obvious analogue real-world libertarian political commentators or conspiracy junkies.

As in TSHoTP, Margaret’s words are a highlight of this book. Her “library book” metaphor is beautiful. I also love the passage about how the dark spirits are part of the same dance as us — “they’re just listening to different music.” I think this is an important theme of both books and Mark’s approach to the mythology.

The idea that Harry didn’t tell anyone about his cancer is very in character, but doesn’t gel with S3. Both Will and Ben seem to know. And why would Frank tell Gordon while keeping it secret from everyone else, as the book implies?!

We get confirmation that Bill Hastings’ memory disappeared after Ruth’s death and returned when he was in custody, explaining his Fred Madison-like reaction in Part 2. This still feels like weak writing.

Is this the first time we learn that George Bautzer died in a car explosion? (Mr. C was many things, but subtle is not one. Why bother elaborately framing George just to blow him up in a highly suspicious attention-grabbing way?!)

I like the gag about the photo of Cooper at Al Capone’s summer house possibly being Photoshopped, as we know it was behind the scenes.

Tammy implies that the boiler room was the true location of the coordinates the Double was seeking (unclear how she knows this).

I like the little glimpses into Jeffries’s personality/backstory before his disappearance. “This world wasn’t enough for him.”

Apparently Ben & Jerry joined Gordon after Coop’s disappearance!
User avatar
AgentEcho
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:57 am

Re: 'Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier' Novel by Mark Frost 10/31 (SPOILERS)

Postby AgentEcho » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:13 am

I enjoyed the book, more than TSHoTP which I also enjoyed. I surprised by how many answers it provided, and generally felt what we learned about the fate of the characters was satisfying. The way the "How's Annie?" question was answered was pitch perfect: it was poignant, clever and haunting... I'm not sure it could have been answered better if the actual show had tried.

The one disappointment was the way it resolved the incongruities of the first book, which definitely made it seem more like fixing a fuck-up than any kind of intentional experimentation with the established reality of the show or anything of the sort, though I'm willing to accept that given these are presented as dossiers of collected documents, there would be errors in them, which actually is realistic (though not particularly interesting).

I'm curious if there is a new season, if Lynch would be willing to adhere to some of the post Season 3 details Frost provided in the book, like the narrative that there's now a timeline where Laura went missing instead of being murdered. Or that Hawk is slated to become the Sheriff of Twin Peaks after a transitional period in which Frank was helping out (I was glad to see that bit, though I'd have preferred if that happened before the new season... I like Forester but it they never did successfully make it seem like anything other than Frank being a fill in for Harry as he factored in the original drafts of the script).

It does seem like there might have been a Bobby Briggs chapter that was deleted. It seemed to refer to there being more to the Shelley/Bobby story which never happened, and there were generally a lot of good background details given for characters but we never learned how Bobby went from being an immature high schooler flirting with crime to a deputy. We can probably infer that his father's death and the memory of that talk at the RR inspired him to straighten his path, but the details could have made for an interesting story.

Return to “Books”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests