episode 27 to 29 connection

[my socks are on fire]

Just finished the gold box episodes - after not seeing a single one since the get go (besides the pilot 'movie'). Nice to be here.

OK - I had heard about the difference between the script for episode 29 and what Lynch had done - so waited until I watched it again to compare against the posted 29 script.

Then I remembered the end of episode 27, where BOB enters stage nowhere, and then we see the red curtains of the Black Lodge reflecting in the 'oil' (plus the music). Then the question: If the Lodge as written in the 29 script is so different from what Lynch did, then why did 27 set it up so perfectly?

So, I looked at the 27 script and saw no mention of the red curtains in the final scene. Did Lynch/whomever go back and tweak the ending to that episode, just to match it up to with Lynch's final take on the Lodge?

I can't wrap my head around how bad the original 29 script is. Is that really it?

[Evenreven]

I'm not sure when it was added. There are plenty of things, a lot of it from Frost, added before filming of various episodes that wouldn't show up in the script. Add to that, the Red Room is actually in the script, for one short scene. Either that, or the drapes could have been actually added later on, I don't know.

Some more discussion here.
http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=638

While the scripted dialogue is mostly terrible, I make a point in that thread, that the main story is not really changed. But Lynch was right to throw out the Windom Earle dialogue and to add the little man and the Giant. I'm still confused as to why Mike isn't there, though.

[Ross]

As you can see from the linked thread, I asked this very same question a couple months ago. Might be one of those things we never know, unless someone involved with the show is asked about it sometime - and if they even remember!

[Brad D]

a shame the one armed man wasnt in the finale. bigger shame he didnt show up once after episode 15 (i think)

[my socks are on fire]

Thanks all - and sorry for the ditto thread.

The season two reviews over at notcoming.com got me started on the whole thing - I thought there was a whole lot of Lynch workshipping going on at the expense of the writers. And I still do, but he did save that last one big time.

I'm sure most of you have read them. I thought the take on Lynch being 'more extreme' in the dispatching of Pete rather than Catherine was a bit off - we all know that was because Lynch just wanted to be working with his buddy at the end.

I'm so glad he took that 29 script and stuck it in his drawer. My hunch is that he had a general idea for it, and then worked with Frost and co. to tweak the preceding episodes more towards his Lodge concept. Annie's kidnapping by strobe light in 28 also plays like a tie-in, but that was in the script.

[Evenreven]

Has it ever been established who came up with the Bob Cooper idea? As it was originally the end of the whole Windom-outsmarting-Dale plot, I'd guess Frost, but it could be Lynch, Peyton or Engels, I guess. It could definitely be seen as the logical ending of the "it's some men's fate to face great darkness" (quoted from memory) quote from the major in episode 17, and I'm pretty sure Lynch had little to do with that. But still, Peyton has been on record saying it was decided very late in the process, possibly when the script was written (which was during the "indefinite hiatus", I believe). Looking back on how and when the plot lines on Twin Peaks were decided, it's amazing it turned out even watchable. The planning seems to have been on a daytime soap level. Who really besides Lynch-Frost prods. have ever made up a major prime time series as they went along?

[TheArm]

The planning seems to have been on a daytime soap level. Who really besides Lynch-Frost prods. have ever made up a major prime time series as they went along?

The X-Files, to name one!

[Evenreven]

But that's different. It's not a soap opera. Most of the episodes are standalone. I know there's a common thread going, but that's in something like two episodes a season. In Twin Peaks the multi-episode story arcs ARE the show.

[Ross]

Who really besides Lynch-Frost prods. have ever made up a major prime time series as they went along?

Umm... Virtually ALL TV shows- including soaps - are "made up as they go along". TP was certainly no different in that respect.

[Evenreven]

Not even a little bit different? Am I the only one who feels it's weird that in a high-profile continuing series like Twin Peaks the point of the series finale is actually decided upon extremely late in the process, and after most of the season's already been filmed (confirmed by Harley Peyton)? There's a difference between making it up as you go along and having few real plans where you're heading. I know you can't really compare with some series being made today, but Lost and The Wire have been planned on a pretty detailed basis several seasons in, if not from beginning to end. That doesn't mean they don't make it up as they go along - within the plot outlines already given. I also think it's pretty obvious that The Sopranos has been more thought-out by David Chase than Lynch and Frost thought out Twin Peaks (although I still haven't seen the last two seasons). Hell, even a mostly episodic series like Hill Street Blues was more consistent with the main story arcs.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel there's a difference between how Twin Peaks was made and how a lot of other continuing series are made.

[Ross]

Not even a little bit different? Am I the only one who feels it's weird that in a high-profile continuing series like Twin Peaks the point of the series finale is actually decided upon extremely late in the process, and after most of the season's already been filmed (confirmed by Harley Peyton)? There's a difference between making it up as you go along and having few real plans where you're heading. I know you can't really compare with some series being made today, but Lost and The Wire have been planned on a pretty detailed basis several seasons in, if not from beginning to end. That doesn't mean they don't make it up as they go along - within the plot outlines already given. I also think it's pretty obvious that The Sopranos has been more thought-out by David Chase than Lynch and Frost thought out Twin Peaks (although I still haven't seen the last two seasons). Hell, even a mostly episodic series like Hill Street Blues was more consistent with the main story arcs.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel there's a difference between how Twin Peaks was made and how a lot of other continuing series are made.

To me, TP seems so much better planned out than almost any other show I can think of. TV IS made up as it goes- especially at the time TP was on. That's the nature of the medium. And back at the start of the 90s, there really weren't shows with the kind of story arcs or "mythology" shows try to create today. You can probably trace all of that directly TO TP!

But even today's shows don't measure up. I always felt that the Sopranos had an awful sense of storytelling. They had good individual plots, but the overall arc was just a big mess. Almost nothing ever panned out that was set up. And things just came out of nowhere all the time (Artie's "love" for Adriana!!!), and were just as quickly dropped.

24 was so poorly planned in its first year that I had to stop watching. I mean its final episodes contradicted everything that came before it!! The writers later admitted "nothing" was planned out at all (duh). And I know "Lost" claims to be "planned", and it may be, but considering next to nothing has actually HAPPENED in three plus seasons, I'm not sure how much it matters.

TP actually laid the groundwork for shows with more ambitious storytelling. I always felt the final episode, with Coop finally entering the physical manifestation of his dream world, and concluding with the ultimate symbols of good & evil (Coop & Bob) becoming one, was the natural direction, and a perfect cap to all that had come before. No matter what stage it all came together behind the scenes and in the creative process, onscreen it couldn't have felt more natural to me.

[Evenreven]

I'm not saying it didn't feel natural by the end. I'm just saying it was not planned. Yes, minor story arcs are invented on the script stage or on the spot for the Sopranos too, but not the major ones, as far as I know. This has nothing to with the question of quality. I think the Sopranos is way overrated, and 24 might be the worst series ever produced (and I don't say things like that lightly; I genuinely loathe it).

But to contradict myself... since we're speaking of quality, introducing the fact that Ben Horne is really Donna's father in episode 26 or 27 smacks of desperate plot device, and it's in my opinion much worse than any bad Artie Bucco writing I've witnessed. What was in my head when I wrote the post above was that if the series had been more thought out, such awful plots would never have been thought up on the spot in the way they were.

I'm not disputing any of the good things you say about Twin Peaks. Hey, I'm here, ain't I? What I AM saying is that it's rare that producers start filming a series to start filming with little clue as to where they will end up. And I think if Frost had known at the time of filming episode 2.01 what would go down in the last episode, I think he would have been as surprised as anyone. And that's not necessarily a good thing.

I don't really get what you mean about long story arcs Twin Peaks. It's a (prime time) soap opera (narratively in the tradition of Peyton Place and Dallas) and they're all about story arcs. The long story arcs are the shows.

[Ross]

I'm not saying it didn't feel natural by the end. I'm just saying it was not planned. Yes, minor story arcs are invented on the script stage or on the spot for the Sopranos too, but not the major ones, as far as I know. This has nothing to with the question of quality. I think the Sopranos is way overrated, and 24 might be the worst series ever produced (and I don't say things like that lightly; I genuinely loathe it).

But to contradict myself... since we're speaking of quality, introducing the fact that Ben Horne is really Donna's father in episode 26 or 27 smacks of desperate plot device, and it's in my opinion much worse than any bad Artie Bucco writing I've witnessed. What was in my head when I wrote the post above was that if the series had been more thought out, such awful plots would never have been thought up on the spot in the way they were.

I'm not disputing any of the good things you say about Twin Peaks. Hey, I'm here, ain't I? What I AM saying is that it's rare that producers start filming a series to start filming with little clue as to where they will end up. And I think if Frost had known at the time of filming episode 2.01 what would go down in the last episode, I think he would have been as surprised as anyone. And that's not necessarily a good thing.

I don't really get what you mean about long story arcs Twin Peaks. It's a (prime time) soap opera (narratively in the tradition of Peyton Place and Dallas) and they're all about story arcs. The long story arcs are the shows.

I don't think soaps before TP, like "Dallas" or "Dynasty" ever really planned anything out in advance. They were made up on the fly- and really there aren't a lot of long story arcs on those shows- they are mostly about the here & now, and the consequences of whatever the current plot was.

And personally, I felt that many things on the Sopranos, such as Artie/Adriana, most anything with Carmella, the plot with Tony meeting his dad's former mistress- were much much worse than anything on TP. But hey, we all have different tastes.

And one thing to remember about TP, is that there was never supposed to be an "end". It wasn't like they were (or had a desire to) work towards a finite ending. Lynch has said many times that that's what drew him most to the show- the idea of the continuing narrative. And Lynch loves that organic creativity more than anyone. The whole Bob as the killer thing sprung out of something completely unplanned. There was a quote from Lynch & Frost back when the show was on where someone asked the two of them how planned out the show was. Frost said "Very", and Lynch said, "Not very much at all". And I think that probably sums up TP- it was both.

And actually the Ben as Donna's dad thing makes sense to me. I always thought that the two actresses were cast because they looked similar (same with Ben & Leland). Again the dual/twin thing. The fact that it eventually became part of the plot doesn't bother me at all. Especially if you feel that Audrey died in the last episode. Ben loses a daughter while gaining a new one. The shifted persona.

[Audrey Horne]

Ross, in theory no show is made up on the fly -most are supposed to submit an outline to the network (the ones supplying the money) -some, like Chase and Frost and Lynch have more creative license where the networks can't really interfere -but story outlines have to be submitted months before they air or filmed.

I loved The Sopranos' early seasons -but they lost the main tension to the show when Nancy Marchand died.

[Ross]

Ross, in theory no show is made up on the fly -most are supposed to submit an outline to the network (the ones supplying the money) -some, like Chase and Frost and Lynch have more creative license where the networks can't really interfere -but story outlines have to be submitted months before they air or filmed.

I loved The Sopranos' early seasons -but they lost the main tension to the show when Nancy Marchand died.

Right- I just mean that shows don't (or didn't especially back then) have very concrete plans of the direction the show would go from a storyline point of view for the long haul. The outline supplied in the beginning (to the network) is usually a bible or guide to what the show is about more than any specific plans for actual storylines. And then yes, scripts etc., have to be run by the all-knowing network, who usually have the power of veto. I don't think, especially in the days before TP, that there were many instances of shows being "planned" out much beyond the next couple of episodes of what was currently being worked on. For one thing, TV is such a quick and fickle medium, its hard, and sometimes fruitless, to think long term.