unanswered questions / mistakes / etc.

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Snailhead
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Re: unanswered questions / mistakes / etc.

Postby Snailhead » Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:30 pm

This is probably a misunderstanding on my part, but I have trouble making sense of the whole doppelganger / possession / parasite thing.

[To start, I'm of the camp that Leland is not simply but possessed by BOB, but partially culpable or at least aware of what he's doing, as suggested by FWWM.]

At the end of season 2, we see Cooper's doppelganger, and we also meet Leland's doppelganger, identifiable by their white eyes. Cooper's doppelganger overtakes Cooper. Then BOB mugs for the camera in that terrifying way, victorious. Then we see Cooper (or his doppelganger), who appears to be harbouring BOB. The image in the mirror hearkens to the earlier revelation that Leland was harbouring BOB, suggesting that this is a similar situation.
Finally, in FWWM, it is implied that the Good Dale is trapped in the lodge, both in dialogue and onscreen representation.

Comparing these various situations, several questions arise:

- Is the concept of Doppelgangers more of a metaphorical thing, a device that is simply a way of visually representing certain spiritual ideas within the Lodge?
Do these doppelgangers exist by default, or do they come into being only when a character has been split apart, in some way?

- Was there a separate "Good Leland" that was trapped in the lodge? There is nothing that suggests this is the case, however we do meet Leland's doppelganger after Leland's death.

- We meet Leland, Maddy, and Laura's doppelgangers, suggesting that the souls of hosts and victims of BOB are bound to the Lodges in some way after their deaths. It is notable that of the 3 members of the Palmer family we see, only with Laura do we see a doppelganger and non-doppelganger version. Does this mean anything?

- Perhaps the most important question: Is Leland's hosting of BOB different to Cooper's (at the end of Season 2) , and how ?

Sorry for all the questions, I just find this a really fascinating part of the mythology and I have a feeling that it's probably a lot simpler than I'm making it out to be!
Aqua
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Re: unanswered questions / mistakes / etc.

Postby Aqua » Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:56 pm

Snailhead wrote:
Do these doppelgangers exist by default, or do they come into being only when a character has been split apart, in some way?




Hear, hear, the readers/knowers of the dweller/doppelganger theories as per theosophy or other sacred readings! More theoretical background is needed to fully understand these, even if just to enciclopediate it internally.

Since I re-started the topic with posession/doubles, I can only attempt to provide some answers - where there is at least a known consensus in the writings in this forum as to what can be named the most fitting explanation (and there are multiple earlier threads discussing the below in detail, and I also may be corrected at any time :) ). The last 2 paragraphs are also what are additional questions for me here, as looking a bit more exactly into the link with the real world the (often supernatural) things in the series shown may have.

- re doppelgangers - since the show is considered supernatural, they are not to be considered only visual metaphors, as should the Lodge itself. although both definitely rooted in and acting as representations (with the circular link, again) of spiritual ideas that form the basis of theirs, and also - and I tend to a more definitive reading of these rather than not - human psychological phenomena that represent the appearance of such in general in real world

- re particular doubles. Although def not a unified reading (as not explained in particularity), in Leland's case I take it as us seeing his shadow (not the same as uncannily evil as say Bob is) self in the lodge - we have been suggested in the series that it was good Leland who has let Bob due to a very young age, and has become corrupted with time with uncontrolled behavior at least in certain aspects. For answers re Laura (and whether they mean anything :) ), the new series are to be awaited perhaps

- as per above - it has been strongly suggested both by the originals (series+film), that Leland's posession is different from Coop's in that
(a) it is the shadow self of cooper that has fully taken over his physical presence in the world along with Bob - probably akin to something of a not severe/debilitating, but still - I am straying away from the words 'irreversible/uncureable' - complete psychopathic/schizophrenic disorder in real life, whereby presumably it WAS Leland's true self that was posessed and corrupted, and
(b) that the above perhaps could show differing processes as to the progression of the 'ilnesses', with the "it struck me as funny" Cooper as we saw him last potentially being fully ready to go on a spree of sorts - whereby Leland likely has become corrupted with time (although this is again not definite); but also interestingly that this seems to hint that the end results - if we are to presume the strong criminal trail in both cases - are quite akin. This seemingly as to infer that no matter whether one starts wrongdoings by full-fledged enactment of his shadow self or gradually giving way to one's weaknesses, the result in those cases can potentially be the same, i.e. the shadow integrating the light within it.

In an aforementioned discomforting coincidence, that is also the way the psychical ilnesses and various mental disorders, as well as all individual tragedies (notwithstanding the effect this has on others around them) stemming from that, work in reality - would be helpful in understanding also to know more about the correlation of these with potential for wrongdoing in the real world (i.e. shall Leland be treated as only incestuous, or as being mentally ill also judging by his behaviour in the series/film, and what came first/stronger for him if both. This, of course, not changing whatsoever the effect/the trauma caused by his actions in any case).

This also includes the question of how much really in control are the individuals effecting either of these (i.e. good coop is in the lodge, can't get out = lost his mind and all conscious controls to his body, can thus be treated as totally insane? leland falling prey to temptation because of the uncontrollable 'evil' inside of him = his psychic, while not necessarily effecting a clinically diagnosed ilness, hopelessly corrupted to the point of no return, and him being fully unable to return to normal life? etc.). As well as - how long that these really took to develop, are these reversible, going into potential for melting/integration by one persona of another as in Coop's case (I take again that there was nothing to integrate in Leland's case, he literally has become doubles with his shadow self barring the eyes), etc.
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bob_wooler
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Re: unanswered questions / mistakes / etc.

Postby bob_wooler » Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:27 pm

I assume Laura didn't want Bob to come in thru her window at night, raping her and what not, so why didn't she lock the window properly?
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Shazbot
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Re: unanswered questions / mistakes / etc.

Postby Shazbot » Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:15 pm

bob_wooler wrote:I assume Laura didn't want Bob to come in thru her window at night, raping her and what not, so why didn't she lock the window properly?


Bob had already infected her enough that she was cooperating without realizing it.
Snailhead
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Re: unanswered questions / mistakes / etc.

Postby Snailhead » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:45 pm

Thanks for the detailed reply, Aqua.
Aqua
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Re: unanswered questions / mistakes / etc.

Postby Aqua » Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:24 pm

Yeah, with the same (and my previous post), I was also trying to get somebody to additionally enlighten re the unknown aspects - this now then a 3rd call, no less :) There is a person who is equipped enough in terms of knowledge of vedics (mythology), theosophy (practical ideas) and psychology (link to the real world), which you can see from the fact that his posts constitute not less than approx. 72-74% of total explanatory posts on theories from 2014-2015 ... ha, but he is lost somewhere around here now
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LostInTheMovies
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Re: unanswered questions / mistakes / etc.

Postby LostInTheMovies » Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:19 pm

Hey Aqua, sorry for not responding yet (also, your description is too flattering!) I think I've reached that in-between point where the new series is close enough that I can't speculate in too much because I know we'll be getting totally new info soon. So I'm kind of "on-hold" as far as the deeper theorizing goes - for the moment. Can't believe we may still have a year to go, though.
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LostInTheMovies
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Re: unanswered questions / mistakes / etc.

Postby LostInTheMovies » Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:25 pm

bob_wooler wrote:I assume Laura didn't want Bob to come in thru her window at night, raping her and what not, so why didn't she lock the window properly?


Given the logistical improbability and complete redundancy of Leland climbing the side of his house in the middle of the night, I think he's already on the room when Bob enters. Bob is likely joining something already in progress because his host has "opened the door" (in this case a window, so to speak) with his actions. And Laura would want that window open too, so that Bob can come in and take over and she doesn't have to see Leland instead.
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bob_wooler
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Re: unanswered questions / mistakes / etc.

Postby bob_wooler » Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:01 am

Shazbot wrote:Bob had already infected her enough that she was cooperating without realizing it.


LostInTheMovies wrote:
bob_wooler wrote:I assume Laura didn't want Bob to come in thru her window at night, raping her and what not, so why didn't she lock the window properly?


Given the logistical improbability and complete redundancy of Leland climbing the side of his house in the middle of the night, I think he's already on the room when Bob enters. Bob is likely joining something already in progress because his host has "opened the door" (in this case a window, so to speak) with his actions. And Laura would want that window open too, so that Bob can come in and take over and she doesn't have to see Leland instead.


Both interesting theories. Laura already being infected could make sense. The scene from the MP with Laura in the stairs, under the fan, certainly implies this.

Another thing that always bugs me a little is the, IMO, inconsistency in FWWM towards Laura's diary, which wouldn't be the only time, I know. Still, in the diary she writes about all her encounters with Bob. Some scary and violent ones, for sure, but interestingly, IIRC, many of the times he came in to her room, they were just talking. Bob visiting, climbing thru her window at night, became like a routine in Lauras life. She didn't want him there but he didn't scare the shit out of her any longer either.
Then, after the encounter with the Chalfonts outside the RR, she goes home and finds Bob in her room, and suddenly she totally freaks out. Screams and cries and runs outside waving her arms in the air, like trying to save her life or something. I mean, come on. I can see that she would jump a little, finding Bob there in the broad daylight, even scream a little for a second, but her totally frantic reaction doesn't suit very well to her history of hundreds encounters with him. But, on the other side, this is one of the best scenes in the movie, so I can easily live with it not being that much attached to Jennifer Lynch's contribution to the story.

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