NON SPOILERS: Twin Peaks: Season 3 on Showtime Thread

[djerdap]

However, I do not believe there is anything wrong with the Roadhouse scene.

Cooper saying that Leland should be Ben's attorney and Leland nonchalantly going along with it is totally asinine, making everybody in that room - especially BOB - to behave subsequently like total idiots. Probably the biggest mistake in an episode with its fair share of problems.

[dronerstone]

I guess that's because Leland isn't BOB all the time, he probably thought everything's fine and was in his right mind at that time.

[Dalai Cooper]

Uh, in his right mind he would not defend his daughter's suspected killer. It makes more sense for it to be BOB, cocky and irrational

[djerdap]

I guess that's because Leland isn't BOB all the time, he probably thought everything's fine and was in his right mind at that time.

Why would Leland Palmer in his right mind defend Ben Horne from the accusations of raping and murdering his own daughter? It makes zero sense. The episode feels like it was written under an extremely stressful deadline and this seems like a silly attempt to get everybody from point B to C in the shortest amount of time, ruining credibility in the process for me. Even if BOB decides to go along with it just for fun - although Ray Wise's performance implies nothing of the sort and, again, it reduces BOB to a caricuture (not the first time the episode does this in fact) - why is everybody else buying it, since there is no indication that Truman and others knew about Cooper's "plan" beforehand?

[mtwentz]

I guess that's because Leland isn't BOB all the time, he probably thought everything's fine and was in his right mind at that time.

Why would Leland Palmer in his right mind defend Ben Horne from the accusations of raping and murdering his own daughter? It makes zero sense. The episode feels like it was written under an extremely stressful deadline and this seems like a silly attempt to get everybody from point B to C in the shortest amount of time, ruining credibility in the process for me. Even if BOB decides to go along with it just for fun - although Ray Wise's performance implies nothing of the sort and, again, it reduces BOB to a caricuture (not the first time the episode does this in fact) - why is everybody else buying it, since there is no indication that Truman and others knew about Cooper's "plan" beforehand?

Leland makes it perfectly clear in Episode 15 he does not believe Ben is the killer. In fact, if Ben is proven guilty, it makes Leland murder of Jacques even more unsympathetic. So actually, on the surface, Leland has incentive to defend Ben Horne.

[mtwentz]

It's also not unprecedented for the family of a victim to come to the aid of the accused. I believe that's what happened initially in the Jeffrey MacDonald case. And Leland is just being Ben's temporary attorney until Ben can find a 'better lawyer'.

[Dalai Cooper]

I probably give it more of a pass than I should for that sort of thing. this episode also represents the first encroachment of 60s batman villainy into twin peaks, that will eventually be a real turnoff to me once we get to windom. BOB should not be cracking wise imo! Despite all that I think there's some really smart writing from frost & the boys here, for instance (to harp on the question of leland's culpability again sorry not sorry) it is leland's conscience and not his memory that is full of holes; the Other Guys are not given enough credit for their contribution to the more complex, ambiguous and interesting reading suggested more heavily by the film.

[Mr. Reindeer]

for instance (to harp on the question of leland's culpability again sorry not sorry) it is leland's conscience and not his memory that is full of holes; the Other Guys are not given enough credit for their contribution to the more complex, ambiguous and interesting reading suggested more heavily by the film.

For all my harping on the letdown aspects of the episode, I do love that subtle distinction in the dialogue. I personally don't believe Bob ever blocked Leland's knowledge/memories of what he's done (although Leland himself may have compartmentalized/denied his actions the way abusers often do). When Bob pulls the ripcord, I don't believe Leland's memories come back -- I believe it's his conscience, his human decency, which Bob had subjugated for who knows how long. Bob's symbiotic gift to Leland was to let him act on his worst impulses free of guilt, until it was time to pay the piper.

I'm not really certain that the writers intended this, or even put that much thought into it -- other things in the execution of the episode certainly imply that the writers were leaning more toward a straightforward possession angle -- but this interpretation works far better with FWWM and the reality of abuse.

[djerdap]

I guess that's because Leland isn't BOB all the time, he probably thought everything's fine and was in his right mind at that time.

Why would Leland Palmer in his right mind defend Ben Horne from the accusations of raping and murdering his own daughter? It makes zero sense. The episode feels like it was written under an extremely stressful deadline and this seems like a silly attempt to get everybody from point B to C in the shortest amount of time, ruining credibility in the process for me. Even if BOB decides to go along with it just for fun - although Ray Wise's performance implies nothing of the sort and, again, it reduces BOB to a caricuture (not the first time the episode does this in fact) - why is everybody else buying it, since there is no indication that Truman and others knew about Cooper's "plan" beforehand?

Leland makes it perfectly clear in Episode 15 he does not believe Ben is the killer. In fact, if Ben is proven guilty, it makes Leland murder of Jacques even more unsympathetic. So actually, on the surface, Leland has incentive to defend Ben Horne.

Even if this is where Leland is coming from - which I highly doubt (episode 15 is more him saying "no" in total shock and incredulity rather than from a place of reason, plus this is BOB's schtick to make Leland seem to Cooper totally oblivious to what is happening around him) - the writing, Leland's character and the performance simply do not gel with this. Leland comes up to Cooper and starts yammering away about bail proceedings in a laughably formal manner. He is and was a total mess due to the rape and murder of his daughter, but suddenly he is this very disciplined and professional attorney? The writers are totally mishandling stuff here in my humblest of opinions. There is just no way to rationalize his behaviour here - your explanation might make sense if there is any sense of that kind of nuance in the episode. There isn't.

[Dalai Cooper]

for instance (to harp on the question of leland's culpability again sorry not sorry) it is leland's conscience and not his memory that is full of holes; the Other Guys are not given enough credit for their contribution to the more complex, ambiguous and interesting reading suggested more heavily by the film.

For all my harping on the letdown aspects of the episode, I do love that subtle distinction in the dialogue. I personally don't believe Bob ever blocked Leland's knowledge/memories of what he's done (although Leland himself may have compartmentalized/denied his actions the way abusers often do). When Bob pulls the ripcord, I don't believe Leland's memories come back -- I believe it's his conscience, his human decency, which Bob had subjugated for who knows how long. Bob's symbiotic gift to Leland was to let him act on his worst impulses free of guilt, until it was time to pay the piper.

I'm not really certain that the writers intended this, or even put that much thought into it -- other things in the execution of the episode certainly imply that the writers were leaning more toward a straightforward possession angle -- but this interpretation works far better with FWWM and the reality of abuse.

Right - it feels like a lynchian understanding of a "fugue state", more about self-deception than about leland literally not remembering anything he's done for hours or even days at a time. Maybe I'm being too generous to the writers but I genuinely don't think they forgot or wanted to move away from the implications of eg bobby's funeral outburst (think of how eloquent Engels was about the town's "free-floating guilt") so much as they were kinda seduced by their own expansion of the mythology & also trying to keep the damn thing moving from week to week, a duty that maybe lynch had the luxury of shirking

[guildnavigator]

There is absolutely no way that it would ever make a drop of sense for Leland to represent the man who supposedly killed his daughter, that's bigger than conflict of interest, its ludicrous.

That being said, linear narrative is not the reason I've ever watched twin peaks or anything else David Lynch has worked on. It's more to me an audio-visual experience. In fact I expect the storyline to not make sense at some point.

There's a reason Lynch calls the reveal of the killer "a great sadness" and disliked that it was forced by the network very much. Pieces of the episode are silly and make no sense. They tried to make it good but what can be expected when an artist is being forced to "create" something they don't like against their will?

[Dalai Cooper]

I don't think that follows at all. The actual reveal episode (14) is a masterpiece, why would it be inconceivable that the wrapping up of the case be up to standard?

(Again, I like the episode)

[LateReg]

As a few people have said, Leland doesn't think that Ben did it. He's defending a friend. This is even more interesting, because why doesn't Leland think Ben did it? Because Leland knows that Leland did it? Because he's just typical good Leland at the time and knows in his heart that Ben didn't do it? Because Leland is Bob at the time, or maybe just Leland, feeling relieved that he hasn't been caught? There's plenty going on in that scene, and none of it is as simple as "why would Leland defend his daughter's murderer?" Both Leland and the audience KNOW that Ben didn't do it.

[LateReg]

I don't think that follows at all. The actual reveal episode (14) is a masterpiece, why would it be inconceivable that the wrapping up of the case be up to standard?

(Again, I like the episode)

Indeed, the reveal episode is an actual masterpiece. The final 20 minutes of that episode, in which the reveal occurs, is hands down for me the greatest 20 minutes in TV history.

[secretlettermkr]

Indeed, the reveal episode is an actual masterpiece. The final 20 minutes of that episode, in which the reveal occurs, is hands down for me the greatest 20 minutes in TV history.

THIS