Questions on Lodges and Bob possession vs. Doppelgangers

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LostInTheMovies
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Re: Questions on Lodges and Bob possession vs. Doppelgangers

Postby LostInTheMovies » Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:26 pm

Jasper wrote:The parasitical thing also goes along with the stuff I pasted earlier in the thread about The Dweller on the Threshold and the shadow.

In Jungian psychology, the shadow or "shadow aspect" may refer to (1) an unconscious aspect of the personality which the conscious ego does not identify in itself. Because one tends to reject or remain ignorant of the least desirable aspects of one's personality, the shadow is largely negative (…)

The Dweller on the Threshold refers to a purported invisible and possibly malevolent entity that attaches to a human being. The term was first used by Bulwer-Lytton in his novel Zanoni.


It’s hard to look at “the shadow self” and “the dweller on the threshold” in Twin Peaks as being identical, even though Hawk seems to more or less imply this in his speech to Cooper. When we examine the descriptions of the Jungian shadow and the original notion of The Dweller on the Threshold, I think it’s a satisfying solution to look at things in this way:

• The Shadow Self = Doppelgänger
• The Dweller on the Threshold = Any given lodge spirit who attaches to a human (MIKE, BOB, etc.)

When viewing things from this perspective, the following comments by Lynch (from two separate interviews) more or less make sense:

INTERVIEWER: So, was Cooper occupied by BOB in the script before you changed it?

LYNCH: No, but Coop wasn’t occupied by BOB. Part of him was. There are two Coops in there, and the one that came out was, you know, with BOB.

INTERVIEWER: Why was Cooper possessed by Bob at the end? It seems like he’s lost it.

LYNCH: Well the thing is he hasn’t been possessed. It’s the doppelgänger thing, the idea of two sides to everyone, he’s really up against himself.


So, the two Coops are the two sides of himself, not two physical Coops (and I think a lot of us, if not most of us, agree on this reading). BOB has not taken over Coop, rather Coop is in a battle with himself, and the last time we saw him, the “shadow self” had taken complete control. BOB has enabled this state of affairs, and has hitched along in a parasitic manner, perhaps enabling BOB's harvesting of Garmonbozia.

So we have the shadow self of Coop on the loose, and the light part of Coop trapped in the lodge (or unconscious, if one prefers). We then have BOB, as The Dweller on the Threshold, attached to Coop’s body, along for the ride and possibly assuming some level of influence.


But I think if you look at the rest of the wiki article, containing the long passage from Alice Bailey, the dweller becomes more clearly aligned with the shadow self:

" "From ancient recesses of the memory, from a deeply rooted past, which is definitely recalled, and from the racial and the individual subconscious (or founded and established thought reservoirs and desires, inherited and inherent) there emerges from individual past lives and experience, that which is the sumtotal of all instinctual tendencies, of all inherited glamours, and of all phases of wrong mental attitudes; to these, (as they constitute a blended whole) we give the name of the Dweller on the Threshold. This Dweller is the sumtotal of all the personality characteristics which have remained unconquered and unsubtle, and which must be finally overcome before initiation can be taken. Each life sees some progress made; some personality defects straightened out, and some real advance effected. But the unconquered residue, and the ancient liabilities are numerous, and excessively potent, and - when the soul contact's adequately established - there eventuates a life wherein the highly developed and powerful personality becomes, in itself, the Dweller on the Threshold. Then the Angel of the Presence and the Dweller stand face to face, and something must then be done. Eventually, the light of the personal self fades out and wanes in the blaze of glory which emanates from the Angel. Then the greater glory obliterates the lesser. This is, however, only possible when the personality eagerly enters into this relation with the Angel, recognises itself as the Dweller, and - as a disciple - begins the battle between the pairs of opposites, and enters into the tests of Scorpio. These tests and trials are ever self-initiated; the disciple puts himself into the positive or conditioning environment wherein the trials and the discipline are unavoidable and inevitable. When the mind has reached a relatively high stage of development, the memory aspect is evoked in a new and conscious manner, and then every latent predisposition, every racial and national instinct, every unconquered situation, and every controlling fault, rises to the surface of consciousness, and then - the fight is on."

I don't think Bob would be the Dweller, unless we conceptualize him as kind of accretion of human emotions rather than a transdimensional being with an independent identity.

To keep in line with your reading, I think it might make more sense to see the Dweller as one of the inherent features of the Lodge which Bob can use to his advantage. And it would also explain why the Dweller is part of Hawk's Lodge lore that ostensibly predates the invasion of these particular spirits.

Incidentally, if we want to play with the idea that Bob, Mike, etc are late arrivals in the Lodge, it would be interesting if they arrived in conjunction with white settlers of Washington; a spirit world colonization to mirror the real world one, as well as a mirror of the fact that Westerners brought over many diseases to which the indigenous population was unaccustomed. Perhaps this was a concurrent spiritual disease. I could see Frost possibly toying with this idea more than Lynch (who seems largely uninterested in history as a subject). Though at that point we're kind of reverting back to the idea of the spirits existing in conjunction with/as projections of humans rather than transcending physical boundaries - I mean, why would they have to wait for English settlers to get to Washington for them to get there as well?

Each new possibility brings up new questions and problems to work out haha.
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Re: Questions on Lodges and Bob possession vs. Doppelgangers

Postby vicksvapor77 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:39 pm

Bumping this thread! Would love to hear some new theories or thoughts on this stuff as the new season quickly approaches :)
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Re: Questions on Lodges and Bob possession vs. Doppelgangers

Postby ThumbsUp » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:25 am

Hi all, new here. In the middle of reading the Secret History, so apologies if any of my queries are answered there. :)

So, the finale's Black Lodge scene is one of my favourite in the entire series, but I have a lot of questions. First, I am confused as to who gets an appearance in the Black Lodge and why.

Why is Maddy there? (I'm going to go ahead and assume it's a Maddy doppelganger, by the way, even if we can't really see her eyes, because she sounds and looks almost as if she's taunting Cooper — and if she has to come out and actually say "I'm Maddy," well, I don't believe her!) She was never taken to the Black Lodge, so why does she get a doppelganger? Or even if it's the "real" Maddy, does that mean that Bob's victims automatically get their spirits sent to the Lodge?

Relatedly, why is Caroline Earle there? Or are all of these just figments of Cooper's imagination — was this particular visit to the Lodge "tailor-made" for him, so to speak? But if that's the case, why is Caroline shown as a doppelganger — why not just show "normal" Caroline?

Now I'll have a go at answering the OP's questions!

Yes, I interpret episode 3 to mean that we're looking at "Good Cooper" and "Good Laura," and yes, like others have said, I think the "25 years later" thing references the fact that Cooper will be stuck there. I did interpret FWWM to imply that Laura found peace... but I don't know if that's the same as "going to the White Lodge"? Whatever happened, I think she's "okay" now, and the spirit can manifest itself in the Red Room or Waiting Room or any other supernatural nook and cranny it wants to, particularly if she wants to deliver clues to the good guys.

Bad Leland saying "I did not kill anybody," to me, references the fact that Bob was the one who fueled the murders via possession, but also just strikes me as an appropriately creepy and sinister thing for an evil twin to say, since Leland (as a vehicle, anyway) did in fact kill somebody.

And yeah, I think Bob can possess people like he did with Leland, but also use a Black Lodge-spawned doppelganger as a vehicle into the real world, as well.

Oh, one more question — being "descended from pure air" or whatever, do Bob and Mike need physical vehicles to possess to leave the Lodge (humans, owls, doppelgangers, etc.)? They just can't leave the Lodge and fly around like ghosts or something, right?
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Re: Questions on Lodges and Bob possession vs. Doppelgangers

Postby N. Needleman » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:42 pm

I always assumed the take on Cooper's doppleganger in the new series would be a bit more complicated; maybe they are or aren't two physical beings, but one's aspect bleeds into the other either way. I still suspect it may be like that, as the dopplegangers are (presumably) ultimately an inverse reflection or element of the original soul. Not possession per se, but still a violation of the spirit, something to overcome.

That said, I also knew Lynch insisted on the doppleganger vs. simple possession, and to see him say it outright a few posts above me, which I'd forgotten about - 'he's not possessed' - is quite a stark reminder. So I wonder just how far he'll take that line of thought. I personally don't and never did care either way whether it's a shadow self or possession by BOB, but Lynch's take seems fairly specific.
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Re: Questions on Lodges and Bob possession vs. Doppelgangers

Postby N. Needleman » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:45 pm

ThumbsUp wrote:So, the finale's Black Lodge scene is one of my favourite in the entire series, but I have a lot of questions. First, I am confused as to who gets an appearance in the Black Lodge and why.

Why is Maddy there? (I'm going to go ahead and assume it's a Maddy doppelganger, by the way, even if we can't really see her eyes, because she sounds and looks almost as if she's taunting Cooper — and if she has to come out and actually say "I'm Maddy," well, I don't believe her!) She was never taken to the Black Lodge, so why does she get a doppelganger? Or even if it's the "real" Maddy, does that mean that Bob's victims automatically get their spirits sent to the Lodge?

Relatedly, why is Caroline Earle there? Or are all of these just figments of Cooper's imagination — was this particular visit to the Lodge "tailor-made" for him, so to speak? But if that's the case, why is Caroline shown as a doppelganger — why not just show "normal" Caroline?


I always assumed any number of souls in our world (if not all) have dopplegangers in the Waiting Room/Lodges, living or dead. When someone enters, those shadow selves can appear or challenge them. Cooper is confronted by Caroline's doppleganger as well as Maddy's, two women he failed. So maybe you could say it's tailor made. I don't think it has to do with BOB.
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Re: Questions on Lodges and Bob possession vs. Doppelgangers

Postby Xavi » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:56 am

The way I interpret Lynch' Universe:
  • At the deepest most hidden level there's The Unified Field: the source of all, of course.
  • Then the world of uncertainty pops up, a world both wonderful and strange, full of vibes, moods, radiations and all kinds of manifestations alike
  • Our daily material world: What You See Is NOT What you "get".
  • Human perception
  • Human intuition: enabling contact between all previous described levels

PS. The world(s) of doppelgängers, Lodges, Waiting/Red Room belong to the second level.
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Re: Questions on Lodges and Bob possession vs. Doppelgangers

Postby Snailhead » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:24 pm

N. Needleman wrote:Cooper is confronted by Caroline's doppleganger as well as Maddy's, two women he failed. So maybe you could say it's tailor made. I don't think it has to do with BOB.


That's a really interesting observation. Myself, I'd always assumed that Maddy's soul was trapped because of her strong connection to BOB, but I think you're onto something.

Of course, it could be something as straightforward as the fact that Lynch didn't want us to forget about Maddie, like most of the townspeople seemingly had, and he wanted to have even more Sheryl Lee.
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Re: Questions on Lodges and Bob possession vs. Doppelgangers

Postby ThumbsUp » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:20 pm

Snailhead wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:Cooper is confronted by Caroline's doppleganger as well as Maddy's, two women he failed. So maybe you could say it's tailor made. I don't think it has to do with BOB.


That's a really interesting observation. Myself, I'd always assumed that Maddy's soul was trapped because of her strong connection to BOB, but I think you're onto something.

Of course, it could be something as straightforward as the fact that Lynch didn't want us to forget about Maddie, like most of the townspeople seemingly had, and he wanted to have even more Sheryl Lee.


I really like this interpretation — that Cooper was confronted with his failures, with the deaths he couldn't prevent, etc. This is a great blog post that delves into it: https://garmonblogzia.wordpress.com/201 ... -it-means/
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Re: Questions on Lodges and Bob possession vs. Doppelgangers

Postby 1derpalm » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:11 pm

Based on fire walk with me, I am inclined to think that Leland's doppelganger DIDN'T kill anyone. When Laura put's on the ring, LELAND screams don't make me do this, and Bob looks upset about it afterwards as well. He killed Theresa over blackmail. If you read My Tapes, it implies that Bob has been around Cooper for a long time. Don't forget the Log Lady intro "And so there are 2, OR WERE THERE ALWAYS 2?". I look at Bob as an enabler of your dark desires.
Also, Laura's Dop could be during her death scene, as Ronette's dream seems to show, or during the scene in the Brothel in FWWM when she flips out over Donna. In the original script the buzzing noise and light on her face was during a conversation where bob said "Look how much fun we can have with one of your shirts" or something like that.

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