Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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N. Needleman
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby N. Needleman » Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:08 pm

I wouldn't call any of Sutherland's comments re: Season 3 an attack on Frost. It was a lot of discussion of division of creative labor, and it was something Frost generally backed up in his own interviews. Plenty of folks tried to take those comments that way over the last few years but I feel that's inacccurate.
The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby JackwithOneEye » Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:55 pm

I just got around to watching Twin Perfect’s video recently, and it makes me wonder what a continuation would look like if you believe his interpretation of the end of The Return that the audience killed the show. I thought his main premise that the original Twin Peaks was a critique of television and a consumer driven audience was good, but I don’t know that some of his ideas branching out of the main idea are that solid when it comes to who and what certain characters represent - even though it made me see things I hadn’t noticed before after 30 years. If Diane is representative of the show in his take on events, if Dern’s bald for a role (which may be a different project), it makes me think of a baby - like a rebirth. A rebirth of the show?

Don’t know if the project’s Twin Peaks related or not, but it’s a nice gift to get before Christmas!


The Twin Perfect guy 's thoughts about Judy being closure and the ending... I wouldnt take too seriously. I cant remember if Twin Perfect guy ever mentions Bardo Thodol, but I think that's more the intent with the conclusion. DL likes spirituality, the quest for enlightenment, Cooper is highly intelligent, but too much hubris, wants to go above and beyond being a detective, and solve everything and can't achieve enlightenment, one with the universe etc.

all the TV critcism stuff is interesting, not a way I would look at it. Jack Rabbits palace as a stand in for rabbit ear attena really a stretchl. some stuff here and there with the meta for sure. but I think Laura removing her face in S3 is more to say she's achieved enlightenment/ accepted death than saying 'Im a TV character'

Frost loves TV, the fugitive, dont think TP ever meant to be a commentary on 'consumable TV violence', dont think either them have that kind of beef with violence on TV. I think the grief/mourning realism of the pilot is just what their heart was into at the time, dont think it was meant to be a criticism of how Columbo treated human life as disposable.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:59 pm

I think the grief/mourning realism of the pilot is just what their heart was into at the time, dont think it was meant to be a criticism of how Columbo treated human life as disposable.
LOL he says that? I do think there’s a strong meta element to TR (and to a much lesser extent the original show), but it’s one of only several themes whereas from what I’ve read this guy thinks it’s the only theme. That is just hilarious, though. That’s like calling Hill Street Blues meta for trying to be realistic when most cop shows weren’t.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby JackwithOneEye » Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:11 pm

I think the grief/mourning realism of the pilot is just what their heart was into at the time, dont think it was meant to be a criticism of how Columbo treated human life as disposable.
LOL he says that? I do think there’s a strong meta element to TR (and to a much lesser extent the original show), but it’s one of only several themes whereas from what I’ve read this guy thinks it’s the only theme. That is just hilarious, though. That’s like calling Hill Street Blues meta for trying to be realistic when most cop shows weren’t.
I'm paraphrasing a bit. The Twin Perfect guy blathers for literally hours. He has some montages of TV violence and murder mysteries in there of network programs where someone is killed in the first 20 minutes, and isn't grieved that much, and the detective comes in figures it out. He tries to say that DL/MF were criticizing the audience for getting off/on/ comsuming violence, the culture, etc. and wanted to show that death hurts , and people have emotions.

He goes on and on in that video, it gets irritating to watch. he makes a few good points here and there, but really smarmy as a presenter.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby Hester Prynne » Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:38 pm


all the TV critcism stuff is interesting, not a way I would look at it. Jack Rabbits palace as a stand in for rabbit ear attena really a stretchl.
Yes - there were parts that I thought were pretty good, but you’d get to stuff like this, and it’s like huh? Then there was the part about the show really being about the bunny because the bunny represented sugar, and sugar was a representation of love but when Lucy ate it, it got rid of her gas, or he refers to it as wind, and wind represents mystery, so Lucy kills the mystery . . . or something like that :?: .

You are right - the explanations are way too long - the video is over 4 hours! I thought some of his main ideas were pretty decent, but it seemed like he wanted to assign meaning to EVERYTHING in the show, and I think that’s where a lot of his interpretation falls a part because he’s trying to use those to argue his main point. I think if he had just stuck to the main point and didn’t get into the weeds, it would have been better received - not as the literal meaning of the show, but one of many valid interpretations.

Having said all of that, I thought his interpretation of the ending of The Return was pretty good - especially the scene in the Sheriff’s office in Episode 17. Not necessarily sold on all of it, but it’s interesting to think of what the plot of a Season 4 would be given what he proposes at the end. Of course, if Lynch feels like the audience killed the show because we want what we don’t need, then why make more Twin Peaks in the first place? Why would he have made 18 new episodes of The Return - a different way to think of it I guess.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby Jasper » Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:54 pm

Working on the board issues.
Thanks, Jerry. I like the festive colors.

Hmm I recall an interview when Mulholland Drive came out where Mark called it incoherent or somesuch word and said Lynch is better with a cowriter, but I don’t recall hearing him ever be bitter about lack of credit.
It's a little more complicated, because Frost was referring to what he'd heard about the movie and the pilot, but he hadn't seen either one. This was posted in a thread here back in 2012:
https://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2135

Luke: "Did you understand what David Lynch's Mulholland Drive was all about?"

Mark: "It started as a conversation David and I were having about a sequel to Twin Peaks. We wanted to take the Audrey Horn character, played by Cheryl, to Hollywood. I proposed Mulholland Drive, which I lived on, as a title. He sold it as a pilot to ABC and then convinced the French that if he shot 45 more minutes, he could make something out of it. I haven't seen it. I heard it was a mess. I knew that the pilot was a mess.

"David's strength and weakness is that he is often able to transcend story because he's such a master creating mood. His failing is that he's not a strong storyteller. He doesn't have a lot of interest in telling a story. He's not as interested in character as fragments of personality. He's a surrealist."

Luke: "He's got a great eye for hot looking women."

Mark smiles: "That was always one of his strengths. The mistake that people make about David is that they assume he's an ironist [saying the opposite of what he means]. He's not. He's a sincere simple guy. He doesn't work things out. He's not that good in logic. When people spend a lot of energy trying to figure out exactly what he meant by Mulholland Drive, I can assure you that he didn't know.
It's a little silly for him to have said that the film didn't have any coherent plot/meaning without having seen it, though we all have moods where we're a bit flippant, so I don't think we should place excessive weight on his attitude here. The plot of MD is actually pretty coherent and meaningful, though it takes a little effort to understand (and some things here and there are difficult to explain as anything other than vestiges of what was meant to be a series). Frost might have had to eat his words given the critical success of the film, illustrated, for example, by the fact that it's #28 on BFI's list of 100 Greatest Films of All Time:
https://www2.bfi.org.uk/greatest-films-all-time
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:22 pm

Ah, thanks for the clarification. It’s been years since I read that. Frost was a little kinder to Mulholland Drive in the Bushman book, saying that ABC treated Mulholland Drive even worse than On the Air (the implication, I think, being that MD deserved better treatment than it got). It’s still not clear whether or not he had seen it. But perhaps he did and changed his mind.

I’d still love to see this alleged interview where he claims he deserved a story credit and that he came up with the car crash, if anyone can produce a link. I’ve read every interview with Frost I could get my hands on over the years, and don’t recall ever seeing that.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby JackwithOneEye » Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:34 pm

Unfortunately I can’t remember where I saw the interview regarding the story credit , it may have been in 1999 , when it was gonna be a thing on ABC. ? Or might been around 2001 not sure .

I was a subscriber to print mags then like Entertainment weekly , where there were news updates that Helen Mirren and Marilyn Manson would play roles when Mulholland becomes a series etc
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:40 pm

Unfortunately I can’t remember where I saw the interview regarding the story credit , it may have been in 1999 , when it was gonna be a thing on ABC. ? Or might been around 2001 not sure .

I was a subscriber to print mags then like Entertainment weekly , where there were news updates that Helen Mirren and Marilyn Manson would play roles when Mulholland becomes a series etc
I’m sure there’s tons of that stuff didn’t make it online. Ah well.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby LateReg » Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:27 pm

Ah, thanks for the clarification. It’s been years since I read that. Frost was a little kinder to Mulholland Drive in the Bushman book, saying that ABC treated Mulholland Drive even worse than On the Air (the implication, I think, being that MD deserved better treatment than it got). It’s still not clear whether or not he had seen it. But perhaps he did and changed his mind.
Pure speculation again but...I think there's a 0% chance that Frost never saw Mulholland Drive, or that he didn't come around on it. Everything he said around the time before, during and after The Return, as well as the very nature of it, implies to me that he was familiar with Lynch's 2000s output, and made peace with Lynch's preferred abstract method of storytelling and structure. I don't think The Return is what it is without Frost having knowledge of at least Mulholland Drive.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby Rhodes » Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:38 am


It's a little more complicated, because Frost was referring to what he'd heard about the movie and the pilot, but he hadn't seen either one. This was posted in a thread here back in 2012:


Luke: "Did you understand what David Lynch's Mulholland Drive was all about?"

Mark: "It started as a conversation David and I were having about a sequel to Twin Peaks. We wanted to take the Audrey Horn character, played by Cheryl, to Hollywood. I proposed Mulholland Drive, which I lived on, as a title. He sold it as a pilot to ABC and then convinced the French that if he shot 45 more minutes, he could make something out of it. I haven't seen it. I heard it was a mess. I knew that the pilot was a mess.

"David's strength and weakness is that he is often able to transcend story because he's such a master creating mood. His failing is that he's not a strong storyteller. He doesn't have a lot of interest in telling a story. He's not as interested in character as fragments of personality. He's a surrealist."

Luke: "He's got a great eye for hot looking women."

Mark smiles: "That was always one of his strengths. The mistake that people make about David is that they assume he's an ironist [saying the opposite of what he means]. He's not. He's a sincere simple guy. He doesn't work things out. He's not that good in logic. When people spend a lot of energy trying to figure out exactly what he meant by Mulholland Drive, I can assure you that he didn't know.

I remember very well the first time I read these quotes. I was so shocked. I must confess that I always thought that MF was somewhat otiose. But it was not until this interview that I thought that Frost's involvement might actually be a detrimental to the show's quality. If you speak so disrespectfully of what might very well be the greatest masterpiece in film history, how can you be trusted with an equal seat at the table? I've never understood why so many TP-fans always want to emphasize (a bit fanatically even) how both creators are equally important and lift each other to heights that are unreachable by one of them individually.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby Rhodes » Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:52 am

You are right - the explanations are way too long - the video is over 4 hours!
Why is that (necessarily) too long? If you enjoy something, more is usually better no? There is 18 hours of The Return, would we prefer 20 minutes?

Moreover, TwinPerfect is not verbose at all. On the contrary. I tried making some notes of his analysis, but that was basically impossible. There was no way making his analysis any shorter. The only reason that the clip is so long, is because he covers so much material and gives so much relevant evidence. If he had been verbose, he could easily have made a 15 hour clip with the same material.

I am not a fanboy, by the way. First, his presentation is a bit annoying to many. And more importantly, he is much too confident in his claims (with no room for any doubt whatsoever), especially in his claim that the meta-tv-angle is the ONLY (or nearly the only) theme in the show. And of course, some of his analysis is a bit farfetched and contrived. And of course there is also the paradox of analyzing something that Lynch desires to be 'experienced'.

Still, if we are fair and not judge the man on whether or not we like him, we just have to be impressed by the incredible amount and depth of his analysis, and the sublime connections between interviews with Lynch, his work and other supporting elements/arguments. Although one could have doubts concerning many of the details, his main claim/analysis is incredibly well researched and supported.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby Agent Earle » Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:34 am


Still, if we are fair and not judge the man on whether or not we like him /.../

With one necessary exception - Mark Frost.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby Rhodes » Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:10 am


Still, if we are fair and not judge the man on whether or not we like him /.../

With one necessary exception - Mark Frost.
What do you mean? I like Frost a lot. I think he is easier to get along with than Lynch for that matter.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby enumbs » Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:15 am

Why is that (necessarily) too long? If you enjoy something, more is usually better no? There is 18 hours of The Return, would we prefer 20 minutes?

Moreover, TwinPerfect is not verbose at all. On the contrary. I tried making some notes of his analysis, but that was basically impossible. There was no way making his analysis any shorter. The only reason that the clip is so long, is because he covers so much material and gives so much relevant evidence. If he had been verbose, he could easily have made a 15 hour clip with the same material.

I am not a fanboy, by the way. First, his presentation is a bit annoying to many. And more importantly, he is much too confident in his claims (with no room for any doubt whatsoever), especially in his claim that the meta-tv-angle is the ONLY (or nearly the only) theme in the show. And of course, some of his analysis is a bit farfetched and contrived. And of course there is also the paradox of analyzing something that Lynch desires to be 'experienced'.

Still, if we are fair and not judge the man on whether or not we like him, we just have to be impressed by the incredible amount and depth of his analysis, and the sublime connections between interviews with Lynch, his work and other supporting elements/arguments. Although one could have doubts concerning many of the details, his main claim/analysis is incredibly well researched and supported.

Ha. I was about to respond, only to realise we’d already had this discussion half a year ago:

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=4134

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