Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

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LateReg
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by LateReg »

Also really great, Norm! The last paragraph about the blurring over of reality and black lodge like the zigzags...very well put.

I don't, however, think any of the other characters you mention need more screen time for their themes/arcs to be more fascinating. The approach to those characters is part of the quilted appeal for me.
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enumbs
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by enumbs »

“In terms of being confined, all of the scenes share that with Cooper's own entrapment - with Dougie or Mr C. So it all does fit together very well.”

I agree with you here. I think there was a real pathos in showing brief glimpses of characters trapped in their routines, adrift from any central narrative. I certainly wouldn’t have complained if there were more Sarah Palmer scenes, but I suspect that the distant view of her sad existence was more powerful than a comprehensive examination might have been.

“Do you not feel like The Return is a doppleganger season? Everything is unbalanced and suffering a spiritual drought. Events in Twin Peaks are as absurd and disturbing as those shown in Las Vegas or Buckhorn. Before, Cooper and other characters offered something of a balance to the evil goings-on. That was now completely upended.”

I think you’re right about the feel of the season, but for me it’s a natural continuation rather than a doppelgänger or inversion. Season 2 ended with Cooper’s shadow in a position of control, and Fire Walk With Me placed Laura at the centre of the narrative, offering her a kind of spiritual catharsis denied our previous protagonist. In season 3 we therefore have a central character who is now representative of a kind of spiritual unbalance, in conjunction with the knowledge that a character who attained spiritual fulfilment is absent and her significance misunderstood. There are still characters who are good or are aspiring towards goodness, but the fundamental sense of dislocation is hard to deny.
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NormoftheAndes
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by NormoftheAndes »

Yes you're right, the brief scenes we had did create more of a sense of pathos.

Its really good to be able to discuss all of this with you amenable sorts here - thankyou! :D
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by Stavrogyn »

Yes, it is a pleasure to read your analyses and interpretations. As much as I am an "expert" on Twin Peaks in my environment in "real life" (probably due to the fact that hardly anyone has seen it, and those who did just watched it and moved to something else), when I read the things you guys write on this forum, I realize how superficially I actually approach it, and I constantly get an opportunity to learn something new or to see things from a different perspective. So thank you! :D
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JackwithOneEye
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by JackwithOneEye »

I agree with your interpretation 100 % enumbs.

The sounds on the phonograph the giant/fireman plays seems to align with the sound of the key in in lock in Laura's initial outer 'cover' diary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMuzMU2u04o

in the pilot, Truman says we haven't found a key, and Cooper rips it open anyway. People often say that rape investigations can add more trauma than the original crime, going over it again in front of others in explicit detail. And there is some subtext throughout that going through Laura's secrets and inner dreamworld and imagination, and even with literal objects, like the VHS tape of the picnic, He is doing more and more harm, clumsily setting up Bobby and James to fight, showing Bobby a videotape to get his jealousy riled up, etc. All of this leads to him getting shot, exposing the town's secrets with such rampant curiosity.

There's a cautionary tale with Lynch in curiosity and mystery, and getting obsessed with 'needing to know.' There is a sense of gravity and realism to me about parts 17 and 18. The defeat of Bob is like something out of a comic book, and even though TP often times delves into sci fi/fantasy, the reality of it all, is you cant go back in time and save someone and re write the past. You can try and anoint yourself a god or superhero, but rules of nature and gravity just won't allow it. and taking someone back to the spot of their trauma, molestation, and abuse, generally not a great idea.

The Giant/Fireman warns Cooper of these things all along, from "Where have you gone ?" in s201 to dismissing him when he says he understands, "you are far away"...
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by Mordeen »

It struck me from the second Part 18 ended that the scene with the Fireman and Cooper was the end scene, not the beginning.

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enumbs
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by enumbs »

JackWithOneEye, I hadn’t considered those specific ways in which Cooper’s investigation caused its own problems and reopened old wounds. Really interesting thoughts.

I’m not 100% sure about the diary sound. It’s definitely similar, and it makes complete thematic sense in the way you describe it, but I’m always a bit skeptical about those kinds of connections. I remember someone posted a video comparing the sound to a Vegas slot machine, and that sounded pretty similar too (although any significance in terms of narrative or theme seems way more tenuous).

Having said that, I would put money on Grace Zabriskie being the voice of the “Philip” who phones Mr C, and I don’t think there’s been much of a consensus on that either...
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Mordeen
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by Mordeen »

Jean Renault's speech to Cooper speaks plainly to the concept that Cooper's presence is a catalyst for the many ensuing tragedies that befall Twin Peaks, the greatest in magnitude being the arrival of Windom Earle.

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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

I wouldn't put too much stock in Jean Renault's speech (great as it is). There was plenty of darkness in TP before Dale arrived, as evidenced by Laura's lifetime of suffering. And all three Renaults contributed substantially to that (by smuggling the drugs she used, Jean was presumably involved in some capacity in her being trafficked at One Eyed Jack's, and Jacques of course by directly having sex with her when she was a minor). Jean is being a complete hypocrite in that scene by blaming Dale for the darkness.

That being said, it is interesting that both of Jean's brothers did die causally because of something corrupt that Cooper did. In the case of Bernard, he's killed by Leo after Cooper goes vigilante with the Bookhouse Boys and intercepts him (completely inappropriate behavior for an FBI agent). In the case of Jacques, he is killed by Leland because Cooper operates outside his jurisdiction to arrest Jacques (also completely inappropriate). In both cases, he behaves the way we would never want a real-world lawman to behave, egotistically believing it is worth breaking the rules for what he judges to be the greater good.

Now, the Renault brothers are far from innocents, and a cynic might even say "good riddance to bad rubbish." But Jean is technically correct in saying that Cooper is culpable in both those deaths.

I also want to echo what others have said: terrific thoughts from enumbs & co. today! Great insights all around.
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Mordeen
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by Mordeen »

I was inferring that Jean's speech was symbolic, with a deeper interpretive meaning than what he was literally telling Cooper. Jean's attempt at righteousness in vengeance against Cooper is clearly hypocritical.

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LateReg
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by LateReg »

What kind of deeper interpretive, symbolic meaning, exactly?

The simplest, I believe, is that it's a hypocritical speech that nonetheless illuminates how Cooper's arrival and curiosity and whatnot ended up bringing everything to light and thus shrouding everything in darkness, despite his own enjoyment of the town, of course. As well as and including the specific things that Jack and Reindeer brought up.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by sneakydave »

Mordeen wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:13 am It struck me from the second Part 18 ended that the scene with the Fireman and Cooper was the end scene, not the beginning.

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Soolsma
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by Soolsma »

A deeper interpretation could be that Coop's ultimate demise, and with him the fate of the town, Laura, and perhaps even the entire universe, was not only foreshadowed by complex events surrounding him already so long ago; he might even have had his hand in it, unwilling or not. Because, after all: who is the dreamer? One could say Laura died because of an unfortunate convergence of circumstances, but wasn't it Cooper who dreamed the killer would strike again? Wasn't it Cooper already hiding in the bushes before she was killed, causing Laura to scream? Depending on how much stock wants to put in MLMT, one could even consider that foreshadowing nightmares have haunted him from as early as his childhood.

I find it a bit silly to say that Cooper was less of a catalyst because evil already took place prior to his arrival, since its obviously implied we should not look at time solely as a linear construct. And even though a schmuck like Renault was probably unable to pick up on that idea, I do feel he was on to something there, hypocritical as it may have been. One can easily write off his speech as some generic malicious speech, mostly meant to give strength to the Renault character or perhaps even an example of inferior S2 writing. However, I beg to differ, and feel like Peyton's addition was one of multiple tidbits embedded in to the story that foreshadow all of the great tragedies that surround and befell Cooper and with him the very universe itself.

I'm not really sure, but I feel like Cooper's demise could very well be something that was known to L&F all along. At the very least from the time that the first hints pointing towards Coop's dark past made their entry, and possibly even as early as them determining who the killer was.
Last edited by Soolsma on Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Mordeen
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by Mordeen »

I approve this message.

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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by AXX°N N. »

It's worth noting that all along, the Pilot as drafted for international release ends not just with Cooper confined to the lodge, but that a timeskip occurs for that to be the case, the implication incomprehensible then but with comparison to S3, perhaps less so, implying the same 'reality warping' fate Cooper experiences.
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