The Tremonds

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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: The Tremonds

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:36 am

Jasper wrote:

BOB (subtitled):

Light of new discoveries.

MRS. TREMOND (subtitled):

Why not be composed of materials and combinations of atoms?



I wonder if Lynch was already thinking about the atom bomb origin then? This seems pretty specific!




boske wrote:That's interesting: the script is mentioning six people, and yet there are seven in the film, so either the script further evolved, or the jumping man is somehow representing Jeffries himself ("I've been to one of their meetings").


There are eight in the film! You’re forgetting the Electrician, who is also not in the script.

I really think Jumping Man was born from the Tremond grandson. The Washington State stuff with the grandson in the mask would have been shot before the “convenience store” studio set, and according to prop man Mike Malone, the stick was a spontaneous idea of Lynch’s the day they shot the grandson at the motel. I think that imagery inspired Lynch to add the Jumping Man by the time they got into the studio.



moonmadness76 wrote:I always thought it was strange that people with the surname Tremonds showed up at the Palmer house in part 18. It always struck me as the the grandmother and grandson didn't actually have/use names of their own, that they just assumed the name of whoever's house they have taken over. Which is why there is a Mrs Tremond who has no knowledge of the grandmother and son, and why Carl Rodd says to Dale Cooper that there were "two Chalfonts" renting the same trailer. Unfortunately this wouldn't have been possible with the passing of Frances Bay, but wouldn't it have made more sense/been more in line with the history of these characters if the grandmother and grandson opened the door to Cooper and Carrie Page in part 18 and stated that they were the Palmers? As far as I know Tremond was a just a random lady on the Meals on wheels route, that those two lodge characters assumed the name of. I still haven't quite come up with a good interpretation as to why there is a previously unseen character in the Palmer house who identifies themsevles as a Tremond, except the vague lodge connection.


Terrific point. That had been gnawing at me too, although I forgot to express it. It doesn’t seem to fit the pattern (especially with her saying Chalfonts owned the house before them), although the fact that it feels “off” fits the uncertain/unstable nature of that universe. I don’t believe the Palmers ever lived in that house in that alternate reality.
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boske
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Re: The Tremonds

Postby boske » Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:22 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
boske wrote:That's interesting: the script is mentioning six people, and yet there are seven in the film, so either the script further evolved, or the jumping man is somehow representing Jeffries himself ("I've been to one of their meetings").


There are eight in the film! You’re forgetting the Electrician, who is also not in the script.

Doh! :mrgreen:

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I really think Jumping Man was born from the Tremond grandson. The Washington State stuff with the grandson in the mask would have been shot before the “convenience store” studio set, and according to prop man Mike Malone, the stick was a spontaneous idea of Lynch’s the day they shot the grandson at the motel. I think that imagery inspired Lynch to add the Jumping Man by the time they got into the studio.

Jumping Man has a mask just like the Tremond's, though he is dressed like LMFAP, so by that token we could assume he shares some (separate) attributes with both Tremond and LMFAP. Maybe he is even a composite of the two?

What is also interesting is that the Jumping Man seems most mobile of the group. In S3 he is running down the stairs, while in FWWM he wobbles and then takes a jump up onto a coffer. Not sure why, but that jump in FWWM reminded me of electrons jumping from one discrete energy level/orbit around the atom to another, which is how, for example, light or electro-magnetic radiation can be emitted (if the electron moves from a higher to a lower energy level). Electricity...
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: The Tremonds

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:09 pm

boske wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:I really think Jumping Man was born from the Tremond grandson. The Washington State stuff with the grandson in the mask would have been shot before the “convenience store” studio set, and according to prop man Mike Malone, the stick was a spontaneous idea of Lynch’s the day they shot the grandson at the motel. I think that imagery inspired Lynch to add the Jumping Man by the time they got into the studio.

Jumping Man has a mask just like the Tremond's, though he is dressed like LMFAP, so by that token we could assume he shares some (separate) attributes with both Tremond and LMFAP. Maybe he is even a composite of the two?


Don’t forget he also has an apparent link to Judy as well (Judy seemingly enters Sarah as a frogmoth with Jumping Man’s face, or something!). Jumping Man for sure deserves his own thread, he’s one of the most intriguing and elusive parts of the mythology. He almost seems to be officiating the convenience store meeting, or perhaps powering it with his movements (building on what you suggest), or perhaps even guiding/manipulating it. I see him (it?) as one of the most powerful and terrifying of the Lodge spirits, perhaps second only to Judy. (Perhaps it is MfAP who borrowed some of Jumping Man’s aura, and not vice versa? Remember, MfAP is merely the embodiment of Gerard’s wayward arm.)
Last edited by Mr. Reindeer on Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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boske
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Re: The Tremonds

Postby boske » Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:53 am

Yes, great catch! The frog moth is another clue here. I had mentioned it before, that scene immediately reminded me of what happened to be told in Revelation 16:13. Lynch employs a symbolic language that is really hard to parse but very rich, so that you can see new things thirty years after having first seen those scenes.
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Jasper
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Re: The Tremonds

Postby Jasper » Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:09 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Jasper wrote:

BOB (subtitled):

Light of new discoveries.

MRS. TREMOND (subtitled):

Why not be composed of materials and combinations of atoms?



I wonder if Lynch was already thinking about the atom bomb origin then? This seems pretty specific!


It does make one at least raise an eyebrow.
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Cappy
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Re: The Tremonds

Postby Cappy » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:30 pm

moonmadness76 wrote:I always thought it was strange that people with the surname Tremonds showed up at the Palmer house in part 18. It always struck me as the the grandmother and grandson didn't actually have/use names of their own, that they just assumed the name of whoever's house they have taken over. Which is why there is a Mrs Tremond who has no knowledge of the grandmother and son, and why Carl Rodd says to Dale Cooper that there were "two Chalfonts" renting the same trailer. Unfortunately this wouldn't have been possible with the passing of Frances Bay, but wouldn't it have made more sense/been more in line with the history of these characters if the grandmother and grandson opened the door to Cooper and Carrie Page in part 18 and stated that they were the Palmers? As far as I know Tremond was a just a random lady on the Meals on wheels route, that those two lodge characters assumed the name of. I still haven't quite come up with a good interpretation as to why there is a previously unseen character in the Palmer house who identifies themsevles as a Tremond, except the vague lodge connection.


Yeah it is odd -- by the logic established in the Tremond/Chalfont's previous appearances, Alice Tremond should've been named Alice Palmer. I think?

Cooper, at the moment that Alice Tremond introduced herself and mentioned the name Chalfont, should've remembered that these names were significant. Why doesn't he? He remembers who Laura Palmer is, and can drive to her childhood home without GPS.

It's interesting to think about Alice Tremond asking an off camera figure who the home's previous owner was. If I have the lay of the Palmer house right, then Alice is turning to address the TV/living room that Sarah Palmer is almost always planted in. Which reminds me of that scene where Hawk comes to the Palmer house to to speak with Sarah, and there is a noise heard from inside the house. Does Alice Tremond's off screen accomplice have anything to do with the strange noise that goes unexplained?
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: The Tremonds

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:51 pm

Cappy wrote:
Cooper, at the moment that Alice Tremond introduced herself and mentioned the name Chalfont, should've remembered that these names were significant. Why doesn't he? He remembers who Laura Palmer is, and can drive to her childhood home without GPS.


I don’t know that we can definitively say he doesn’t recognize the significance of those names. My assumption was that he recognized the names, but that was just one aspect of his broader realization that he had failed. It’s tough to say for sure how much Cooper understands in that moment, but my interpretation is that his recognition of the Tremonds’ intervention just adds to his disappointment and bewilderment at his failure.
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Re: The Tremonds

Postby boske » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:14 am

We are also missing something here that seems to be floated in front of our faces: "It is in our house now". Yes it is, Tremonds are in the Palmer house. The more I think about, the more it seems is that the opening scene of S3 takes place after Laura disappears while being saved by Cooper. And the color scheme of the scenes seems identical.
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Re: The Tremonds

Postby Diane » Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:52 am

boske wrote:We are also missing something here that seems to be floated in front of our faces: "It is in our house now". Yes it is, Tremonds are in the Palmer house. The more I think about, the more it seems is that the opening scene of S3 takes place after Laura disappears while being saved by Cooper. And the color scheme of the scenes seems identical.


Not only that, but when she screams while disappearing it is the same sound as when she screams and “goes up” in the lodge, which seems to indicate the two timelines are happening simultaneously. Also, “Listen to the sounds.” We hear the sound the giant plays for Cooper just before she disappears in the woods.

Something else that occurred to me is that at the end we see a replay of Cooper leaving the lodge as if it never happened. And in a sense it didn’t. The first time, Hawk is waiting in the sycamore grove. The second time, it’s Diane.

“Is it future or is it past?” seems to refer to the Laura scream when she disappears/goes up because right after Laura disappears in the woods “in the past” we cut to the lodge scene where Mike is asking that question.
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Re: The Tremonds

Postby Diane » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:18 am

We watched the last two episodes last night. My wife pointed out that when we see Cooper’s face superimposed in the police station that it’s like there’s an “over-arching Cooper” that seems to be above all the other versions of Cooper. Maybe the true Cooper is in the white lodge with The Fireman dreaming “futures past.”

There seem to be stories playing out. “Do I need to end your story too?” Isn’t that what Charlie says? And Audrey says “What story is that Charlie? The story of the little girl who lived down the lane?” The same thing The Arm asks Cooper the second time he’s preparing to leave the lodge.

And just as there are Dale/Richard and Diane/Linda, Audrey says to Charlie that she doesn’t know who she is anymore or who Charlie is. She “wakes up” in a different place as if from a dream.
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Re: The Tremonds

Postby Diane » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:52 am

In Theosophy, the White Lodge is composed of a group of ascended masters who guide the evolution of humanity. They are able to take on human form and appear on earth at will. Maybe Cooper and Jeffries are ascended masters.

From the perspective of the other characters, Cooper and Jeffries appear randomly after long periods of time being absent. They are really leaving the lodge (where they live) and taking on human form again. While they are in the lodge they are “the dreamer,” creating scenarios for those on earth to live out.
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Re: The Tremonds

Postby boske » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:04 am

Diane wrote:
boske wrote:We are also missing something here that seems to be floated in front of our faces: "It is in our house now". Yes it is, Tremonds are in the Palmer house. The more I think about, the more it seems is that the opening scene of S3 takes place after Laura disappears while being saved by Cooper. And the color scheme of the scenes seems identical.


Not only that, but when she screams while disappearing it is the same sound as when she screams and “goes up” in the lodge, which seems to indicate the two timelines are happening simultaneously. Also, “Listen to the sounds.” We hear the sound the giant plays for Cooper just before she disappears in the woods.

Yes, that is a very interesting parallel. Lynch and Frost seem to be using the idea of dimensions indicating what forces are driving events. Cooper is falling into non-existence, while Laura is being raised up in the lodge, which would therefore hint (if this reasoning makes sense), that it is the Fireman who actually whisked Laura away. With Cooper falling earlier, it was clear who was behind it.

The same thing happened with two visits to Jeffries, while Mr. C. Had to climb two sets of stairs up, Cooper instead had to descend to the hotel basement to reach the second stairs. And "real" Cooper did not need anybody to unlock the door to Jeffies for him.

To speculate further, since the last words spoken were "what year is this", maybe what Laura speaks into Cooper's ear is exactly that, a year into which to recur, or what year it was (not in the lodge, as lodge seems to be outside of time).
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: The Tremonds

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:50 am

boske wrote:Yes, that is a very interesting parallel. Lynch and Frost seem to be using the idea of dimensions indicating what forces are driving events. Cooper is falling into non-existence, while Laura is being raised up in the lodge, which would therefore hint (if this reasoning makes sense), that it is the Fireman who actually whisked Laura away. With Cooper falling earlier, it was clear who was behind it.


But Laura ends up in Odessa? Why would the Fireman put her there?

The same thing happened with two visits to Jeffries, while Mr. C. Had to climb two sets of stairs up, Cooper instead had to descend to the hotel basement to reach the second stairs. And "real" Cooper did not need anybody to unlock the door to Jeffies for him.


We don’t actually see who opened the Jeffries door the second time (my hunch is it was the Great Northern 315 key again, but I have nothing to support that). That sequence is fascinating to me on a production level. Multiple people following the shooting at the time confirmed that the crew got to the Mt. Si Motel way later than anticipated (in the very early morning hours of the next day) to shoot the Dutchman’s/Red Diamond City Motel scenes. This also was seemingly the very last night of Washington shooting. Resultantly, a planned night shoot of Sarah in a Washington supermarket was scrapped (and was later shot in California during the day instead). There was also a rumor that they didn’t get all the planned shots at the Mt. Si Motel. Part 17 (when “original” Cooper visits the Dutchman’s) clearly doesn’t contain any actual footage shot at the location except for one static shot with no one in it. I’ve been wondering if they meant to shoot “original” Cooper’s Part 17 scene there after wrapping the Double and just didn’t have time? As it stands, the footage in Part 17 is Cooper and Gerard exiting a door, then a frozen POV shot of the motel, then that very dark shot of Cooper and Gerard walking beside a wall that is clearly NOT the Mt. Si Motel (this is the mysterious shot that fascinated so many of us when all we had to analyze was the promos). Then it cuts to Jeffries, and Cooper and Gerard emerging from darkness. We don’t see who opens the door, or how.

Of course, it’s interesting that Lynch even chose that location from FWWM to act as the Dutchman’s. And, to bring things full circle, the Tremond grandson of course pops up there in FWWM...
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Diane
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Re: The Tremonds

Postby Diane » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:50 pm

The fact that The Fireman says “listen to the sounds” and then Cooper simultaneously hears the same sound in the lodge and in the woods just prior to Laura’s disappearance indicates that The Fireman is at least aware of the disappearance if not behind it. Is the disappearance the reason he must now leave the lodge and assume the identity of Richard?
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Re: The Tremonds

Postby Diane » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:56 pm

If this was unforeseen, why does Diane know to wait for the curtain call?

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