2021 Thoughts on Season 3

[Jonah]

There's another thread where we discussed his books and Mr. Reindeer gave some good examples of some of the inconsistencies. And (correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Reindeer, and I'll edit this) I think some of us thought he changes things after the fact after they'd been pointed out to him online or incorporated things like the ring? At least that was the suspicion anyway.

I just think fans sometimes give creators too much credit - they often don't know every nook and cranny of their own worlds, especially if they haven't written them in awhile, and often don't imbue every scene with deeper meaning - which goes back to the old "blue curtains" adage mentioned on here before. I think fans enjoy finding meaning in things sometimes more than writers/directors intend - and that's not only true of Lynch fans, just in general. That's not to say some scenes don't require deeper scrutiny and contain hidden depths, even subconsciously put there by the creator who didn't consciously intend to, but sometimes people just read too much into some things. And then again, maybe a work of art takes on a life of its own, and if people want to read a lot into it, then maybe those things do exist because someone picked up on them in the first place. I don't now. I'd need a joint and some sitar music and maybe some comfy beanbags to lean back and really discuss it. Right now I just have a half-cold cup of coffee and an itch to log off the internet and do some writing (but I'm procrastinating).

[AXX°N N.]

And (correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Reindeer, and I'll edit this) I think some of us thought he changes things after the fact after they'd been pointed out to him online or incorporated things like the ring? At least that was the suspicion anyway.

I'm aware of the suspicion, but there are passages in Secret History that are about the general idea of data alteration and memory fault, it goes beyond just details being inccorect, of which is something that happens in abundance and who knows when it's a legitimate error or not. When I first read the books, I didn't even realize dates or locations being wrong as it's not something I generally pay attention to--it was way after the fact that I read long lists of inconsistencies, but by that point I had already interpreted the books to be about fabricated or changed data and the trickiness of getting to the truth, because I think those are broad general themes both of the books wear on their sleeve.

I'm a writer myself, and I know all too well the memory loss that can result no matter how intimate you get with your work. But I think it's not generally true to say creators don't try to imbue every scene with intent--there are some books where that would be a false statement, it's the modus operandi of some creators in their own words, and peotry is basically predicated on that idea. I think any discussion about "fans reading into works more than creators" is making too big an assumption about the mind of the creator; I also think it goes into a discussion about the quality vs. the quantity of ideas. A fan can spend more hours than a creator did on interpreting a scene, but the actual intended meaning of the scene could have taken maybe 20 minutes but be more worthwhile in profundity.

[Jonah]

Another thing - it's easy in a book that's about memory lapses or false memories to use that as a fallback if you screw up. I'm not saying that's the case here - but I'm guilty of using excuses in my own writing, such as one where I happened to have characters who couldn't remember their pasts so therefore I could skip out on backstory. I'm sure other writers would agree to falling into similar traps of lazy writing or researching. Just pointing that out but not accusing anyone of anything or saying that's the case here. But sometimes inconsistencies are simply inconsistencies and the happen to the very best. I don't feel Norma's mother's backstory was a deliberately crafted attempt at a false statement or for another reason, for instance. I think it was just a goof.

Anyway, it's late so I'm signing off for awhile - the conversation is interesting and I'm sure I'll be back to read through it, but as I said, I didn't want to get into a big back and forth on any of my statements. Sometimes it's okay just to let thing slide. People often say things on here I don't agree with and I just let it slide. Not everything has to be a debate. Too much debate can really kill the discussion. (Not aiming this at anyone in particular, just a general aside. And I'd probably be more in the mood if it wasn't so late.)

[AXX°N N.]

Another thing - it's easy to set up a book that's about memory lapses or false memories and then use that as a fallback if you screw up.

I won't argue that at all, and I understand completely if that's anyone's take. Taken for granted that the books are about those themes, how well they justify that or use it as an excuse is its own entire thing.

I was just saying what came to mind, not trying to debate or agitate.

[Jonah]

I mean, I do think some of it is intentional and smartly done - due to false narratives, faulty memories, unreliable narrators, etc. But sometimes mistakes are just mistakes too.

I'd be up for a deeper talk about the intention behind scenes another time. But sometimes writers do just write stuff down and throw it at the wall and hope it sticks. Especially if there's a deadline coming. Or sometimes we write stuff and don't know what it means or if it even means anything as I'm sure you also know and as evinced by Lynch once saying "so that's what I meant by that!" And sometimes it could be an unconscious thing or fans can uncover interesting stuff, I agree with all of that. All I'm saying is that not everything always has deeper meaning. But again I'd probably need that sitar music and an earlier hour to really get into all that. So I'll leave it there for now, brew another cup of decaf and see if I can't get a few words down on my current project (which has been moving along nicely but is stalled now at the halfway point as I can't figure out what to do next - if one day I'm lucky enough to have fans reading it and debating it, I can honestly say with this particular book I didn't have a clue what I was doing so any deeper meanings will be purely unconscious and/or unintended!).

[Histeria]

Another thing - it's easy in a book that's about memory lapses or false memories to use that as a fallback if you screw up.

Well then the unintentional screw-up vs intentional object of broken memory dichotomy is redundant, surely?

When reading it, unaware of the backlash online, I just assumed some passages were intentionally unintentional. As in, frame your writing process around the assumption you're misremembering things.

But in all three scenarios, the end result is the exact same book with the exact same text so as Barthes might say, the author is still dead for all three.

[NormoftheAndes]

Jonah, your mention of your novels makes me really want to read one of them. Are they available anywhere online please?

Axxon N - you are right, Frost is entirely aware of inconsistencies in the Secret History. Those are not explainable by just Cooper and the Lodge, it is suggested something bigger than that is going on. The Return certainly too makes things apparently to be related to far more in the universe than just Coop and his being in the Lodge or not.

[Jonah]

Not yet, Norm. The first few were but they're out of print now and I'm not sure I even want anyone reading them as I was young when I wrote them and don't really feel they reflect my writing now, then the last few years I've been editing books for other people and working on a fantasy series that came close a few times with big publishers (I got a lot of notes) and did get offers from small publishers but I was holding out for a larger deal, reworked one of them into script form, and they're still out there, making the rounds - but yet to be picked up. I have no idea if they will be at this stage. I keep thinking they won't, then I get an email out of the blue with someone wanting to see more or asking if I'd be open to changes, etc. I do think they could do well if they found the right audience - but I'm still waiting for the right publisher. I could self-publish I suppose, but I'm holding out on that for now. I'm working on two new novels at the minute. I'm hoping to finish both and start sending them out to publishers soon. Hopefully one day, I'll be able to announce them on here!

I can recommend some of the authors I like - I do like Frost's early novels, I like Dean Koontz, Peter Straub (he has a series of unrelated "Blue Rose" novels!!), vintage Stephen King, Flann O'Brien. A couple of editors compared my books to Jasper Fforde but I've never read him so I'm not sure if that's true or just because his stuff is kind of meta. My stuff was but not so much anymore, I'm trying to move away from that, it was just that particular fantasy/non-fantasy series that was especially meta.

Regarding Frost's TP books, I'll refrain from saying more about them till I sit down and read them, or more of them. I have read bits and pieces, but I'm mainly going off stuff I've read online and on here about the inconsistencies between that and the show. They seem like pretty detailed accounts, though.

I would be fascinated if Lynch ever wrote a novel. Does anyone think that's a possibility, however remote, or if we'll even get some unreleased scripts such as Antelope published? That would be an amazing read. And you know, for some of his more out there ideas that he couldn't get out simply because of budget or effects, the novel form would be ideal for that. It's like George RR Martin saying he got tired of his scripts not being fully realised due to budget constraints so decided to sit down and write something epic in book form that didn't budget approval. I've heard Lynch say he's not crazy about writing or something like that, but he did launch Blue Velvet, Mulholland Drive, and presumably Antelope and others without a co-writer. So I'd love to see a novel from him or the unreleased scripts published.

[Audrey Horne]

I’ll read your stuff anytime, Jonah!

I forgot all about Frost’s book. I was too embarrassed to say before The Premiere that I couldn’t get through it and skimmed. But the Audrey bank stuff was great. And do you think they retconned her boring patched up relationship with Ben on purpose or simply forgot. But I thought that was a highlight. Pete shielding her, and going back to the testy relationship with Ben.

The choices made in his follow up book as really baffling though, and throughly depressing… unless it was a setup for a newer season. I mean, Frost and Lynch you realize this is a television show… and not like The Wire or The Sopranos. The characters don’t gel in such naturalism… why so bleak?

Ha, this is like Cheers coming back and Sam Malone is a abusive puppy-kicker, or Friends’ Rachel Green is now a heroin addict- just to make sure it is not nostalgic. I cannot even imagine those Skype sessions between the two coming up with the most depressing routes (not to mention boring) for 346 characters.

[dugpa]

Let’s do it but I’m thinking we call the new thread 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

I read that as two thousand and twenty one thoughts (individually) on Season Three… and I was like, no problem.

LOL. I too have had at least that many.

One of which is what they did to Audrey in Season 3 cannot be forgiven. Biggest disappointment of the entire thing.

[Jonah]

One of which is what they did to Audrey in Season 3 cannot be forgiven. Biggest disappointment of the entire thing.

I was talking about this earlier. Overall, I agree. I think she should have gotten much more to do. I didn't like the long drawn-out rambling speeches about Billy and all that stuff, but otherwise I'm glad Fenn insisted the original role be changed and I'm glad Lynch agreed, even if I'm not entirely happy with the results. Being a hairdresser attacked by her son sounds much duller than what we got. At least it gave us a lot of theorizing on what was happening to her/where she was, and had a nice payoff in the reveal at the roadhouse in Episode 16.

I think they dropped the ball again, though, by not including her in Parts 17 and 18. Having both her and Coop "wake up" in 16 was a neat touch and it would have been much better if she had then been tied into the story in Part 18. Like if she had been in the car with Coop in 18 instead of Carrie (though I prefer that it's Lee of course, but I'm just giving an example - maybe she could have been wandering on the side of the road and they both picked her up). Or maybe have her in the Sheriff's Station in 17 or even wandering somewhere else in the Odessa-verse. Basically, do something with her, not even a conventional thing, but anything, don't just drop her after 16. It would have been more acceptable had this been a TV show with a cliffhanger in May that would be picked up again in September (though still annoying as think she should have been in the final two episodes), but it's already been five years and no new season in sight, so it feels like she just ended up in limbo again, like both she and Coop did at the end of S2. Coop and Laura too. They're not even Coop and Laura anymore, but Carrie and Richard! Anyway, I know The Return isn't traditional television and some people might say it would probably be too conventional to continue on with her story etc., but it just bugged me that she was dropped - I really think it would have been better if they'd weaved her somehow into Coop's journey a bit more, if they were going to mirror them both waking up together in the same episode. He didn't have to go and save her or anything (as I've said before, I'd rather she saved him) but it just felt like another loose end, which was a shame as it built to a nice reveal but then petered out again when it wasn't expanded on. (I wonder if it was meant as a more traditional cliffhanger had they been thinking they might do more sooner.)

I’ll read your stuff anytime, Jonah!

Thanks Audrey!

[Audrey Horne]

I thought when it was all over, she had probably the only exciting part. Can you imagine though if that cliffhanger was more like in episode nine or even earlier, same with Cooper? That episode with the mirror and Cooper’s “I am the FBI” was the only real jolt ending that was active to keep you on the edge of your seat. I love the toying with the idea that fan favorites Cooper and Audrey are not who they should be for a few episodes, but that should just get you over the hump… and then have them kick ass,

Poor Madchen - she basically had to smile in a diner, and get on a car hood for five seconds. Oh, oh and I am a bad person but that mother and son hugging game was how do I put this… dumb.

[Jonah]

Madchen and a few of the others were definitely underused and their stories also were left unfinished - we last saw her canoodling with Red outside the diner. I would have liked some of those stories wrapped up perhaps a little more too if this was to be the last outing for the show, but they don't bother me as much as Audrey's. Her unfinished story nags at me even a little bit more than Cooper's/Laura's weirdly enough, as that felt more like a purposeful cliffhanger that could also be a devastating and very final ending depending on how you read it. Audrey's just felt.... unfinished. To go through all that and still end up essentially chained to a bank vault all over again. Maybe that was part of the point, like Cooper failing to save Laura, but if so I didn't like it. I know it tied into the dreamer aspect of the show, and who knows, maybe she was the main dreamer all along and the whole show was in her head or something, all the roadhouse people maybe, but it just still felt like a comma, not a full stop.

I'd like to see some of the people we didn't get to see (Josie, Catherine, Annie) maybe just out of curiosity, but I'm content with not seeing some of the others again. Even if the next iteration (if we ever get one) only focused on Cooper, Laura, and Audrey I'd be content.

[dugpa]

I love the toying with the idea that fan favorites Cooper and Audrey are not who they should be for a few episodes, but that should just get you over the hump… and then have them kick ass,

I agree. That is what I was waiting for. Kind of got a bit of that at Judy’s diner at the end but not really Cooper.

[dugpa]

I love the toying with the idea that fan favorites Cooper and Audrey are not who they should be for a few episodes, but that should just get you over the hump… and then have them kick ass,

I agree. That is what I was waiting for. Kind of got a bit of that at Judy’s diner at the end but not really Cooper.