Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

[ScarFace32]

So if Ray was sent to the Black Lodge because of the ring...that means Laura was sent there after BOB killed her in the train car in FWWM?

I always wondered what she was doing there and how she got there...extremely odd...and really cool at the same time

Interesting. Does this mean that we should be expecting to encounter Theresa Banks in the Black Lodge as well? She wore the ring prior to being killed, but then it was missing from the finger of her corpse (just like with Ray).

Is there definitely only 1 ring? Dougie was wearing the ring when he went to the Black Lodge. So how did the ring get from the Black Lodge to the Warden to be given to Ray? But was Briggs corpse found with the ring on like I remember? I thought that was how it got to the prison in Buckhorn?

[Shloogorgh]

since the ring can travel through dreams it has a lot of leeway in how it gets around

[claaa7]

So if Ray was sent to the Black Lodge because of the ring...that means Laura was sent there after BOB killed her in the train car in FWWM?

I always wondered what she was doing there and how she got there...extremely odd...and really cool at the same time

Interesting. Does this mean that we should be expecting to encounter Theresa Banks in the Black Lodge as well? She wore the ring prior to being killed, but then it was missing from the finger of her corpse (just like with Ray).

No. Neither Caroline nor Maddy wore it and yet they were there.

perhaps the Caroline and Maddy we see in the Lodge in ep. 29 is projections of Cooper's mind.. The Lodge somehow uses his fears and feelings of failure to create images to confuse and scare him.. if you've seen or read "Solaris" that plays with a similiar idea. both Maddy and Caroline would work very well in throwing off Cooper's mental balance.

[SpookyDollhouse]

by the way ... in all my viewings of the boxing match on sarah's tv, i also watched the three mirrors above her sofa. nothing to report here. all reflections perfectly mimic her actions. what's strange is that this seems like a perfectly normal occurance to her - she doesn't try to change the channel or even bother attempting to fix the loop. she seems so resigned to it like she's almost given up.

One of the most disquieting scenes of the series so far for me. Just the darkened room, the overflowing ashtrays, the bottles, all the weird ornaments, the portrait photos, the half-eaten ear of corn, the tv playing to itself (or is that loop supposed to be subjective? who knows?) etc. Nothing spectacular happens, but the scenery just oozes malevolence.

That set is a triumph of unsettling art direction, for sure. Also, there appear to be at least 3 prescription pill bottles in that shot (possibly 4, but the 4th one looks more like aspirin or ibuprofen). Those (whatever they are) plus gallons of booze could definitely have, um, some kind of impact on one's mental state!

My heart-raced during this scene in preparation for something horrible about to unfold and when nothing did, it was like that feeling of malevolence just sat suspended. Loved it.

[claaa7]

So if Ray was sent to the Black Lodge because of the ring...that means Laura was sent there after BOB killed her in the train car in FWWM?

I always wondered what she was doing there and how she got there...extremely odd...and really cool at the same time

Interesting. Does this mean that we should be expecting to encounter Theresa Banks in the Black Lodge as well? She wore the ring prior to being killed, but then it was missing from the finger of her corpse (just like with Ray).

Is there definitely only 1 ring? Dougie was wearing the ring when he went to the Black Lodge. So how did the ring get from the Black Lodge to the Warden to be given to Ray? But was Briggs corpse found with the ring on like I remember? I thought that was how it got to the prison in Buckhorn?

i don't think the ring has been mentioned in connection with Major Briggs at all. from reading TSHoTP and watching the Return and FWWM i would say yes, there's only one ring.

[Daliz]

So if Ray was sent to the Black Lodge because of the ring...that means Laura was sent there after BOB killed her in the train car in FWWM?

I always wondered what she was doing there and how she got there...extremely odd...and really cool at the same time

Interesting. Does this mean that we should be expecting to encounter Theresa Banks in the Black Lodge as well? She wore the ring prior to being killed, but then it was missing from the finger of her corpse (just like with Ray).

Is there definitely only 1 ring? Dougie was wearing the ring when he went to the Black Lodge. So how did the ring get from the Black Lodge to the Warden to be given to Ray? But was Briggs corpse found with the ring on like I remember? I thought that was how it got to the prison in Buckhorn?

No the ring found in Briggs' stomach was a ring from Janey-E to Dougie. I think it said "To Dougie, with love, Janey-E" or something like that.

Probably has to do with the "manufacturing" of Dougie.

[claaa7]

Interesting. Does this mean that we should be expecting to encounter Theresa Banks in the Black Lodge as well? She wore the ring prior to being killed, but then it was missing from the finger of her corpse (just like with Ray).

Is there definitely only 1 ring? Dougie was wearing the ring when he went to the Black Lodge. So how did the ring get from the Black Lodge to the Warden to be given to Ray? But was Briggs corpse found with the ring on like I remember? I thought that was how it got to the prison in Buckhorn?

No the ring found in Briggs' stomach was a ring from Janey-E to Dougie. I think it said "To Dougie, with love, Janey-E" or something like that.

Probably has to do with the "manufacturing" of Dougie.

that's right.. i really hope everything around the Major will be cleared up soon. why did he swallow that ring.. why has his fingerprints kept appearing over and over again. what does it mean that he was hibernating? i guess it means that he was somehow hiding out in The Zone, without aging at all, perhaps because time moves very differently in there

[ScarFace32]

Interesting. Does this mean that we should be expecting to encounter Theresa Banks in the Black Lodge as well? She wore the ring prior to being killed, but then it was missing from the finger of her corpse (just like with Ray).

Is there definitely only 1 ring? Dougie was wearing the ring when he went to the Black Lodge. So how did the ring get from the Black Lodge to the Warden to be given to Ray? But was Briggs corpse found with the ring on like I remember? I thought that was how it got to the prison in Buckhorn?

No the ring found in Briggs' stomach was a ring from Janey-E to Dougie. I think it said "To Dougie, with love, Janey-E" or something like that.

Probably has to do with the "manufacturing" of Dougie.

Oh ok thank you for clearing that up. So that raises an interesting question: how does the ring get from the Black Lodge to Ray via the warden after it enters the Lodge on Dougie?

[Wonderful & Strange]

Is there definitely only 1 ring? Dougie was wearing the ring when he went to the Black Lodge. So how did the ring get from the Black Lodge to the Warden to be given to Ray? But was Briggs corpse found with the ring on like I remember? I thought that was how it got to the prison in Buckhorn?

No the ring found in Briggs' stomach was a ring from Janey-E to Dougie. I think it said "To Dougie, with love, Janey-E" or something like that.

Probably has to do with the "manufacturing" of Dougie.

Oh ok thank you for clearing that up. So that raises an interesting question: how does the ring get from the Black Lodge to Ray via the warden after it enters the Lodge on Dougie?

Mike.

[sewhite2000]

I am sheepishly sticking my head back in here after taking a break of about a day and a half to cool down. I seem to have made a few people unhappy! One person said I had no right to tell people on here what to do and what not to do. Several people think I'm a real buzzkill, trying to crush the fun everyone's having with their speculations about what this means or that means. And one poster said one of my comments was malicious!

We are all heroes in our own personal narratives, I guess, and it comes as something of a shock to me that I have generated such blowback. I feel a little bit like Michael Douglas at the end of Falling Down: "Wait a minute ... I"m the bad guy?" I went back and read a couple of posts, and while I still defend the points I was trying to make, I clearly see I was occasionally a a little ... intense in the way I was expressing myself. So, I would like to say I didn't intend for my comments to be an attack on anyone's intelligence or integrity or anything like that. I apologize If I offended anybody or hurt anybody's feelings. Some comments by others, their fervor and their insistence that they were seeing things I didn't see, and these things they saw had to be significant and had to be intentional and were not open to other interpretations by me or anybody else made me a little crazy, but I still cold have been more tempered in my response.

Something Mr. Reindeer said sums up my feelings exactly, though I never expressed it quite so succinctly or eloquently:

"(personally, I believe the reflection glitch is totally intentional and also completely inconsequential to the narrative),"

Exactly how I feel. I think Lynch crafts his imagery very carefully, but I think we have many instances in the show where some odd imagery has thrown everyone into a tizzy and has ultimately proved to not have any further significance. As another poster said, I think that final scene was mainly intended to ironically reflect Ed's earlier statement to Bobby that it sucks to eat alone and to poignantly show how lonely he is, not to indicate time is folding in on itself because Ed's reflection may have moved independently of him, as some have suggested.

Okay, I will strive to be more diplomatic in the future.

[sewhite2000]

BTW, several people commented that Detective Frank appeared familiar, and some suggested they thought it was either Bryan Cranston or Harvey Keitel playing him. I can't recall that anyone definitively posted who the actor was. It was John Savage, who has been in everything from Hair to The Godfather Part III to Do the Right Thing to The Deer Hunter to The Thin Red Line to Salvador. Nice to see him again. Looking at his imdb page, I see he's never stopped working, but man, I just don't recognize any of these movies or TV shows he's been in in the last 20 years or so.

[writersblock]

David Lynch said this of watching the new season: If people at home had as big a screen as possible, and great sound, and if they did turn the lights down for the things they see, and make it a safe place, a good place to see it, that would be really beautiful.’

IMO, this is more about him wanting viewers to immerse themselves fully in the world of his film without distractions (something he has been vocal about for many years), rather than a scrutinizing for clues.

Also, as writersblock says, since Lynch thought to include an insert with my copy of MD asking me to pay attention to such seemingly innocuous details as table lamps, the argument over ignoring details and trying to followg authorial intentionality really makes little sense at all.

He says in the Rodley book that the French distributor pressured him into writing those clues, and then they ended up in the DVD as well. I forget the exact words he used -- I wish I had the book in front of me -- but the sense I got is that he found the idea of giving such clues reductive. I'll come back and add the exact quote when I'm home.

Also keep in mind that this is the man who for years refused to have chapter breaks on his films because he wanted them to be experienced straight through. I'm not saying there aren't subtleties and hidden things here and there (personally, I believe the reflection glitch is totally intentional and also completely inconsequential to the narrative), but I'm pretty sure DKL isn't playing to freeze frame culture.

I totally get that he might be a little annoyed that the French Distributor pressured him into writing those clues - but it doesn't change the fact that the clues were there. He clearly had a meaning behind the things he gave clues about - he would probably rather we had come to some sort of conclusion ourselves, rather than nudging us that way. Watch on a big screen with good sound is a lot less explicit than "There's a bit coming up with Ed's reflection, you should really check that out!"

[boske]

Interesting. Does this mean that we should be expecting to encounter Theresa Banks in the Black Lodge as well? She wore the ring prior to being killed, but then it was missing from the finger of her corpse (just like with Ray).

No. Neither Caroline nor Maddy wore it and yet they were there.

perhaps the Caroline and Maddy we see in the Lodge in ep. 29 is projections of Cooper's mind.. The Lodge somehow uses his fears and feelings of failure to create images to confuse and scare him.. if you've seen or read "Solaris" that plays with a similiar idea. both Maddy and Caroline would work very well in throwing off Cooper's mental balance.

Yes, exactly. Cooper's version of the lodge is based on his experiences, fears, loves, and so on.

[douglasb]

If I was being pressured into giving clues I'd sure give them: "Watch for a red car. Who is the driver?", "What is in the sandwich?", "Listen carefully to the words." Doesn't mean anything.

[sewhite2000]

I thought of something I wanted to comment on before I got wrapped up in the whole Big Ed thing. A number of people have declared that because Ray said Jeffries wanted "what was inside of" Evil Coop, that this is definitive proof that BOB is still inside Cooper. I don't necessarily agree with that. We don't know how often Ray talked to Jeffries or when Jeffries said that. I'm thinking it was before Ray shot Evil Coop and all those Woodsmen did whatever they did. I think they removed BOB from Evil Coop - I mean we BOB entirely outside of Evil Coop's body, and we don't see him go back in. Most people on here seem to think just the opposite of me, though (which I'm slowly trying to get used to!).

So, all I'm trying to say is IF the Woodsmen took BOB away, Jeffries may not be up to speed on that. Ray certainly lacked the vocabulary to explain to Jeffries what he saw, other than to say Evil Coop was getting some "help". And we have no confirmation of any kind that BOB is still inside Evil Cooper, nothing like that scene where Evil Cooper looked in the mirror while in prison.

So, it may be true BOB is still inside Evil Cooper, but the people are claiming Ray's comment proves that he is with no room for discussion are wrong. In my opinion! I'll try not to get all angry about it.