Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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sylvia_north
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:35 am

Novalis wrote:
whoisalhedges wrote:
Novalis wrote:I'm the kind of person who considers Glitch Art beautiful, so for me these faults, bugs and defects, whether motivated or unmotivated, are absolutely significant. I recognise of course they may be entirely inconsequential to the plot, but the plot is hardly ever what has held my attention with Twin Peaks, or indeed most of Lynch's work. I'm certainly not hooked into the idea that everything has to mean something. I love Asemic Writing for example; here it's the opacity of the form, the fact that it doesn't transparently communicate anything but brings the materiality of the signifier as such to the foreground. A lot of Lynch's devices do the same, especially his experiments in sound design.

Agreed.

When it comes to the "glitches" in TPTR (and TSHOTP, but that does have to be considered slightly differently at least, as Lynch was uninvolved) I think there are three kinds, and they are ALL present:

1) evidence of "something" going on in-universe, particularly in Twin Peaks itself
2) an artistic choice made by Lynch (and/or Frost)
3) mistakes

I think there have been some mistakes. Miriam's last name on the letter? The crew said that was a prop error. Serendipitously, it worked - but we were told it was a mistake. I'm sure there have been others.

When it comes to #1, actual temporal anomalies, my thoughts are very close to this article: https://25yearslatersite.com/2017/07/19 ... rt-jacoby/ I don't think what we're looking at is some kind of Star Trek/P.K. Dick alternate timelines, I just think it's these little "timequakes" for lack of a better word.

And with artistic decisions, often made in editing: I don't think Diane wearing green while putting coordinates into the phone, "Dougie" having a catch with Sonny Jim (who is wearing the same outfit he wore in Part 5), Bobby finding something from the Major "today," or perhaps most controversially Hawk's going to Glastonbury Grove in Part 2, are instances of time jumping forward and back. I think those scenes were placed where they are during Lynch's editing his "18 hour movie" into 18 parts, into television "episodes." I think he made these choices for thematic, emotional, dramatic reasons. Sometimes (especially with Lynch) the medium is the message; he often structures his films for a very specific reason - and that reason is intuitive, not plot-dependent.

I'm not the most eagle-eyed viewer. I didn't catch ANY of the wardrobe "malfunctions." I didn't catch Ed's reflection until it was shown to me. But I've still seen a LOT of things being shown "out of order."

TIME as it's traditionally understood isn't the only thing we're dealing with here, either. I'm still in the camp (I might be the only person who thinks this, in fact :lol: ) that in the past 2 parts we've seen "Schrödinger's Audrey" - nobody in Twin Peaks has seen her. The only character we see interacting with Audrey is Charlie. So, as far as I'm concerned, she is unobserved; and as such, she both woke up from her coma and did not. I'm FAR from the only person to look at Lynch with a wink toward quantum mechanics; Martha Nochimson wrote a whole book about it. But I am the only person I know to consider Audrey Horne in TPTR to be in an unobserved, and thus simultaneously dead and alive state. How that's gonna break down, I haven't the faintest. But until she talks to someone whom we have EVER seen outside that room, her reality in unobserved.


From the sounds of it I really have to read Nochimson's Swerves. I got a lot out of her Passion of David Lynch.

It's really interesting, this Schrödinger's Audrey scenario. I chose 'other' in the Audrey's Situation poll because I couldn't make my mind up whether she was dead or alive, comatose or awake, delusional or sane. It never struck me as a possibility before, but now that you've mentioned it, maybe she simply is under-determined, i.e. in an unresolved superposition. :lol:

I also smile to myself that Charlie threatening to end her story 'too' plays a lot like a Romantic-Irony Lynch insert, reflexively referencing the way a lot of other secondary characters have had to be axed in this season. Ludwig Tieck eat your heart out.



Robert Jacoby in TSHOTP is something deeper than a parallel timeline. The multiverse coexisting with this one seems like the best explanation. For anyone who says TSHOTP is just retconning the storyline to taste neglects the very obvious two deaths. No one writes that badly intentionally.
Spoiler:
We see the same thing happen at Jack Rabbits that we do at the convenience store , and then there is the 2:53 jump from American Girl and Cooper entering the Lodge, which now has Naido entering Twin Peaks while Cooper is hovering in the box even as Cole is looking for Dougie Jones in his subjective timeline



Spoiler:
And now we know Tina is a 'real' character, so Audrey must be in real time. Unless Audrey has something to do with why Billy had a bad night and she skipped into a multiverse while his face was getting messed up, Pete Dayton style


Yes, read Swerves for sure!!
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tlk
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby tlk » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:27 am

LateReg wrote:It's Tom Sizemore from Heat.

Yep. Just thought he was feckin A in this ep.
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby blue_rose_case » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:42 pm

Noticed on my re-watch today that when doppelCoop is riding the elevator at The Farm, the text "No Passengers" is displayed behind him. Possible clue that, as has been speculated, Bob is, indeed, no longer with him?
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:39 pm

Audrey Horne wrote:So if we take the edited reflection as intentional, what are we to infer? Since Lynch is treating this as an eighteen hour film, and in that regards one wouldn't have the ability to stop the film and rewind in his ideal scenario. Is this an Easter egg that Lynch and Frost would point out after the fact to the plot?

Are they suggesting something down the line with Ed, who hasn't had any weight to the story fourteen hours in? Or that it signifies doppelgängers existing in all of us that will be an emerging and end plot point? Or will it be representative of something Engels mentioned years ago about certain time frames coexisting minutes or seconds apart that was touched upon briefly in FWWM between Cooper and Jeffries
Whatever the trick done with Ed, I fully agree it is not meant to be noticed, but possibly slightly subconsciously registered to encompass the series's themes.

To me, personally, I think it will just amount to a detail people years from now will say, "what was that all about?!"


Here's another poster suggesting the moving reflection might mean dopplegangers exist inside all of us, implying possession. So, I found three posts that suggest possession in fewer than five minutes yet you scream in capital letters that not one person said it. Clearly, you are wrong.
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:39 pm

Can we maybe get a separate thread for the reflection discussion?
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby claaa7 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:32 am

i am currently doing my rewatch of Twin Peaks: The Return. Now that the story has all been laid out for us i want to experience the whole shebang as a whole. i started watching episode 1/2 on Tuesday and yesterday i finnished 11/12/13/14. it's pretty great seeing it like this, for example Mister C's hunt for the coordinates doesn't seem like it's a months long plotline and the "Dougie" strand (which might be my favorite of it all) seems more balanced in hindsight.

if anyone is currently doing a rewatch i suggest to switch the order of episodes 12 and 13 so that ep. 13 directly follows ep. 11.. man does those two episodes flow so much better together! there's really nothing in ep. 13 that couldn't come directly after 11 and especially how the Dougie plotline picks up right after the "Heartbreaking" scene works wonders for the narrative.. ep. 12 and 14 also works really well in tandem.

Spoilers for other episodes:

Spoiler:
the only scene that's hurt is introducing Audrey in 13 instead of 12, as i think her apperance in 12 was fantastic - the way it broke from Jacoby's angry rant to a sudden dreamlike stillness (like the Formica tabletop), with Audrey just standing there in silence while we pan across the room.
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:55 pm

Ray clarifies (?) “Jeffries”’ motives: Ray has only ever spoken to Jeffries on the phone, he makes it sound like his imprisonment was a set-up to protect him and/or bait Mr. C (?), and Jeffries wants Mr. C dead because he has something inside him “they” want (Bob). Who are “they”? The case for “Jeffries” being either Mike or in league with him is getting stronger and stronger.

So Ray is working for Mr. C, the FBI, the Lodge spirits, and is also a member of Renzo’s merry band?! He was sure a busy little bee. Surprising that Renzo is ok with Ray freelancing, he seems very possessive of his labor force.

We know Todd works for Mr. C. Is Mr. C behind the Vegas insurance fraud ring? Is this part of how he made the fortune that let him buy that gorgeous house in Brazil (and perhaps to become the “anonymous millionaire” behind the NYC experiment)? This Part implies that Dougie was involved in the insurance fraud. It would be amusing if Dougie were unwittingly working for the doppel! One has to ask, though, why Mr. C pals around with redneck lowlives and spends his time in dirt road country if he’s so rich.

Is the “dandruff” on Tony’s shoulders supposed to be some of the poison that blew on to him? I’m still a tad puzzled by that moment.

Tony says he just wants to “die or change,” reminiscent of “fix their hearts or die.”

Maybe it’s just wishful thinking because I don’t want to consider Bobby and Shelly having to deal with the tragic murder of their daughter, but I assume Steven’s disappearance is due to him tripping in the woods, and that he never returned home.

The references to “stories” this season remain intriguingly, maddeningly elusive. This viewing, Charlie’s threat to end Audrey’s story reminded me of ‘Who’s Afraid of Virginia Wolf,’ wherein the older (infertile) married couple have an elaborate lie-agreed-upon that they have an imaginary son at college whom they frequently discuss (named Sonny Jim!), and at the end of the play/film, the husband, fed up, “kills” the son (ending the story). Not exactly sure how this applies to Audrey/Charlie, but I have a hunch it has something to do with their “contract”...

Also note that Charlie says he always feels like himself. Interesting, especially given the possibility that he may simply be a fragment of Audrey’s psyche. And the sole mention of Ghostwood in S3....so much to process, so little to go on. I love it, but it’s not hard to see where the Profoundly Disappointed are coming from.

The Big Ed closing is absolutely beautiful. We know from the earlier scene that all Norma’s recipes are homemade. If Ed were married to Norma, he would be eating her soup from a bowl in their dining room. Instead, he’s getting a sad poignant taste of what could have been, eating her cooking from a to-go container.

This is probably Sarah’s weakest scene in S3, but it still stands out as a high point of Part 13 and the series. Hypnotic, weird, unsettling. Sarah relives her suffering endlessly, feeding her rage, just as the boxing match plays on endless loop.
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby Jasper » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:34 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Is the “dandruff” on Tony’s shoulders supposed to be some of the poison that blew on to him? I’m still a tad puzzled by that moment.


It's a weird moment, but Anthony's dandruff was indeed set up beforehand. Take a look at the scene with the conga line in the Lucky 7 offices. When Anthony is freaking out in his office you'll see that he's got heavy dandruff. I noticed it at the time and I was very confused until the poison coffee scene, at which point I was confused in a different way.

I think Dougie-Coop simply becomes distracted by the dandruff and plays around with it. Maybe his intuition is connecting it to the powder that's been put in the coffee. (I don't think the visual similarity is an accident.) Anthony seems to take it as accusatory that "Dougie" is looming over him from behind rather than drinking the poisoned coffee.
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby ThumbsUp » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:10 pm

Hi friends, just finished my first post-finale rewatch. Questions/thoughts:

1. Who gave Ray the ring in the prison? I assume someone Jeffries sent from the Lodge, as the ring was left in the Lodge after Dougie was sent back.

2. What "prison thing" did Jeffries set up with Warden Murphy? That Ray would end up there and lure Mr. C into a cage?

3. If the ring sends dead wearers to the Lodge, why didn't it send Laura back in FWWM? Did Bob take the ring?

4. Does Coop make the same hand gesture he makes when he opens the curtains in the Lodge in part 18, and tries to open them in front of the Palmer house with Carrie Page? Coop does this in part 13 when attempting to open the door in the office building before meeting Anthony.

5. You can VERY faintly hear the "Mike sound" when Coop starts massaging Anthony's dandruff.

6. The constant shots of Bushnell with his old boxing poster behind him fits the season's theme of the bittersweetness of nostalgia.

7. Bushnell mentions the "two cops Dougie found" - I'm dumb, who are these cops again that Anthony is afraid of and apparently worse than Duncan Todd?

8. I have a lot of Audrey thoughts but I put those in the Audrey thread.
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:51 pm

ThumbsUp wrote:7. Bushnell mentions the "two cops Dougie found" - I'm dumb, who are these cops again that Anthony is afraid of and apparently worse than Duncan Todd?


I think the Harvey Keitel-type dude who hooks Tony up with the poison, and his partner.
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby Xavi » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:47 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Is the “dandruff” on Tony’s shoulders supposed to be some of the poison that blew on to him? I’m still a tad puzzled by that moment.


The dandruff on Tony's shoulder relates to the otherworldly as the motif of Leland's jacket related to the chevron floor.

Image

BTW Hope you notice that Naido/Diane really fell for Cooper.
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:34 pm

On my Blu Ray rewatch, I’ve been trying to keep track of character wardrobe to gain an understanding of how scenes might have been rearranged during editing. This led me to a fun realization I haven’t seen mentioned: the Fuscos have three ties which they share between them, swapping from day to day. :lol:

Not much else to say about this one except: what the hell is this nightmarish thing from Audrey and Charlie’s wall? It bears some resemblance to the Albatross jerky logo...
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun May 24, 2020 7:32 pm

Clearly TP is a heightened reality and always has been, but now I’m curious: does anyone know if it’s ethical for insurance agents to accept gifts from clients? Especially REALLY expensive ones like a BMW?

Patrick Fischler cracks me up with his deadpan delivery: “Well, this is most unfortunate.”

I’ve come to really like most of the Mr. C material, but for some reason the arm-wrestling scene just doesn’t really do it for me. I’m always rooting for it to pull me in, but it just feels like such a normal, predictable scene that could be from any movie. It is interesting that Mr. C sort of becomes the protagonist, or at least the guy we’re rooting for, for one scene. Kyle is good as usual, and we really get a good look at those black contact lenses in his closeups, which is a pretty chilling effect. I love when he’s calling for Ray: “I came to see you, buddy!” And then, “I came to see my friend Ray.” :lol:

Working through my theory some more (apparently technically AXXoN N.’s theory...great minds think alike).

So assuming the Woodsmen are actually opposed to Mr. C and they killed Briggs and Ruth and hid her body to keep Mr. C from getting the coordinates...and they want to keep Bob inside Mr. C so that the Lodge can pull Bob back in along with the doppel and Judy can be with Bob again...

What is Jeffries’s place in all this? If Ray even did speak to the actual Jeffries? He wants Ray to kill the doppel because he has “something inside that they want.” That on its face sounds like he’s allied with Judy/etc. But note that he doesn’t actually say if Jeffries is working with the “they,” or against them. If the above theory is true, Judy/the Woodsman DON’T want Mr. C killed. They want him alive with Bob inside until they can pull him back in (hence Mike and EotA being so helpful to the “good” Cooper; they want him to succeed in being the one who stays out). So by killing Mr. C, Ray would free Bob, which seems like “Jeffries” is...aligned with Bob? Or, maybe more realistically, just opposed to Judy (it’s safer to have Bob wandering as a free spirit than to let Judy reunite with him?).

Or, another possibility: Jeffries told Ray to put the ring on the doppelganger, which seems to transport Ray back to the Lodge after his death. So perhaps if Ray had put the ring on Mr. C’s corpse, Bob wouldn’t be able to escape before he was transported back. So whoever Ray was talking to IS aligned with Judy and the Woodsmen.

What’s really weird about this any which way you look at it, though, is that Ray planned to kill Cooper at Jeffries’s command BEFORE he ever got arrested, and before the prison guard gave him the ring. So initially Jeffries didn’t mention the ring, and only later did this factor come into play? It’s really convoluted no matter how you try to look at it. It would all make so much more sense if Ray just had gotten the ring earlier. Maybe Ray is just lying about who gave him the ring, but why?

I am cataloguing all the ring appearances, and at some point am gonna try to do a rundown of its significance/powers.

Ray also says Jeffries “set the whole prison thing up with Warden Murphy.” What on earth could this possibly mean?

Ray also says, “I know who you are.” A doppelganger? A former FBI agent? A man with Bob inside him? Something else entirely we don’t know about?

I LOVE the way Richard just sort of shows up in the scene out of nowhere and walks through the crowd like a shark, never taking his eyes off the screen.

The Fuscos are really cracking me up this go-round. I love every second of their little scene here. Ditto the Chantal & Hutch “Mormons” scene. Those two are really reminding me of a homicidal version of Sailor & Lula this time out, in the best possible way.

Mike Malone’s little cameo cracks me up every time, even though I’m eagerly anticipating it.

I have to say, Mädchen does some GREAT waitress-acting. I really believe she’s serving people and bustling about.

Dana’s little, “Oh. OK,” upon leaning that Shelly went home is also really funny. He’s such a quirky actor, always fun to watch. In the FWWM “Reflections” DVD feature (I think), there’s a hilarious interview clip with Miguel Ferrerr where he says he once told Dana that Dana’s acting style is Shatner as Captain Kirk, just to fuck with him.

It’s wild watching that Bobby/Ed/Norma scene and thinking back to the Pilot, when Bobby and Mike attack Ed. They’ve all come a long ways. (Well, maybe not Ed, yet. “No reason, pal. Nothin’ happenin’ here.”)

The power dynamic between Audrey and Charlie really shifts between Part 12 and this one. Audrey goes from repeatedly insulting Charlie’s lack of balls to essentially begging for help and advice. At the moment, I believe this Audrey is a tulpa (all the dialogue about not being her, asking “Which one would you be?” and especially Charlie threatening to end her story). The line “Which one would you be?” is interesting: it seems to imply that there is an Audrey who goes out and an Audrey that stays in, like parallel universes, and by making a choice we become a new person separate from who we would have been. This is of course the whole thrust of Eddie Veder’s song “Out of Sand” (which I think was the only song written explicitly for TR? Do I have that right, or am I misremembering from those Dean Hurley radio interviews?). There’s also whatever is going on with Ed’s reflection (which I never would have noticed on my own, but it’s 100% intentional). I don’t think Lynch would ever talk about any of this in terms of literal parallel universes, but that does seem to be what he’s getting at in an abstract sense. The choices these characters have made, who they’ve become and who they haven’t become.

I really love that grotesque deer head on Audrey and Charlie’s wall. It looks like it wasn’t taxidermied and it’s just decaying there.

Dale’s Diet:
— Anthony Sinclair buys him a coffee at Szymon’s; after he wanders off to stare at a slice of cherry pie in the display, Tony poisons his coffee; after Tony runs off with the poisoned coffee in remorse, Coop drinks Tony’s coffee instead, and Leslie the waitress brings his slice of cherry pie
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Sun May 24, 2020 11:16 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
I’ve come to really like most of the Mr. C material, but for some reason the arm-wrestling scene just doesn’t really do it for me. I’m always rooting for it to pull me in, but it just feels like such a normal, predictable scene that could be from any movie. It is interesting that Mr. C sort of becomes the protagonist, or at least the guy we’re rooting for, for one scene. Kyle is good as usual, and we really get a good look at those black contact lenses in his closeups, which is a pretty chilling effect. I love when he’s calling for Ray: “I came to see you, buddy!” And then, “I came to see my friend Ray.” :lol:


A lot to think about in this post, and hopefully I'll have something more insightful to add later. But for now, I just want to point out, since it is such a rare occurrence, that I still really disagree with this. We had briefly talked about this scene when it first aired, and you had said something similar. I had said that I found the scene totally unpredictable...even if only in sequence because the series was proving time and again that anything could happen, and would not happen in the ways you expect. Plus, an arm wrestling match was just about the last thing I'd ever expect. I was totally on the edge of my seat, and furthermore find Mr. C utterly terrifying in that scene. But even if I can objectively agree with you that the scene in and of itself ultimately ends in the way one might place their money on - with Mr. C breaking the guy's arm (though I didn't see the face-punching death coming, which is a step further than expected and, along with the arm wrestling itself, reveals the extent of Mr. C's strength to a degree we were certainly unclear on) - I still have to say that it is one of the best and most intense scenes in The Return, and precisely due to its "normal" nature, one of the most surreal moments. The energy of the scene is unreal even by Lynch's standards and in a rowdy way that seems unique in his filmography, it's this alternately hilarious and frightening parody of masculine ritual, and it's downright fun. I've honestly never seen anything like it.

As far as Jeffries goes, perhaps a good way of looking at it is to think of Cole's speech in Part 17. If Jeffries is allied with Cooper and Cole on this 25-year plan, then what would his purpose be? First and foremost, regarding Mr. C, would be to get him back to the lodge so that Cooper could get back to the real world to follow through with his portion of the plan. In doing so, Judy doesn't get to reunite with Bob, I'm guessing. At any rate, maybe that line of thinking could be helpful in determining what Jeffries' ultimate role is, which is something I'll gladly leave to you and Axxon to decipher!

Oh, and I was waiting to rewatch again to check this out, but there is a moment when Bobby is talking to Big Ed that is very clearly badly dubbed in, as though they had changed a bit of the dialogue. I'm very curious to know what they changed, and if it might clarify or has anything to do with the (now jumbled) timeline since it occurs right around the part when he says that they found some interesting stuff having to do with his dad "today."
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun May 24, 2020 11:45 pm

LateReg wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
I’ve come to really like most of the Mr. C material, but for some reason the arm-wrestling scene just doesn’t really do it for me. I’m always rooting for it to pull me in, but it just feels like such a normal, predictable scene that could be from any movie. It is interesting that Mr. C sort of becomes the protagonist, or at least the guy we’re rooting for, for one scene. Kyle is good as usual, and we really get a good look at those black contact lenses in his closeups, which is a pretty chilling effect. I love when he’s calling for Ray: “I came to see you, buddy!” And then, “I came to see my friend Ray.” :lol:


A lot to think about in this post, and hopefully I'll have something more insightful to add later. But for now, I just want to point out, since it is such a rare occurrence, that I still really disagree with this. We had briefly talked about this scene when it first aired, and you had said something similar. I had said that I found the scene totally unpredictable...even if only in sequence because the series was proving time and again that anything could happen, and would not happen in the ways you expect. Plus, an arm wrestling match was just about the last thing I'd ever expect. I was totally on the edge of my seat, and furthermore find Mr. C utterly terrifying in that scene. But even if I can objectively agree with you that the scene in and of itself ultimately ends in the way one might place their money on - with Mr. C breaking the guy's arm (though I didn't see the face-punching death coming, which is a step further than expected and, along with the arm wrestling itself, reveals the extent of Mr. C's strength to a degree we were certainly unclear on) - I still have to say that it is one of the best and most intense scenes in The Return, and precisely due to its "normal" nature, one of the most surreal moments. The energy of the scene is unreal even by Lynch's standards and in a rowdy way that seems unique in his filmography, it's this alternately hilarious and frightening parody of masculine ritual, and it's downright fun. I've honestly never seen anything like it.


I get all of this, yet for some reason it just doesn’t quite pull me in the way it seems to want to. I enjoy bits and pieces of it a lot. This time I found my eye gravitating to Ray in the background, yelling “TAKE HIM DOWN” with increasing desperation. Kyle’s taunting “starting position” shtick is really well-done. The whole is just less than the sum of its parts for me. Maybe it’s too generically lit. Maybe it’s just a letdown after three Parts in a row of no Mr. C prior to this. Or maybe it’s just, as I’ve said, the smaller underdog triumphing over the big bad with a huge cheering entourage is such an obvious cliché. I will say, this time, it really shocked me that Mr. C takes Renzo’s sucker punch to the back of the head. I think it’s the first time we see him take shit from anyone. In that context, I think his murderous punch to Renzo is the result of his pent-up rage that has been simmering. Look at Kyle’s face when he throws that punch!! I think that might be the angriest we ever see him.

As far as Jeffries goes, perhaps a good way of looking at it is to think of Cole's speech in Part 17. If Jeffries is allied with Cooper and Cole on this 25-year plan, then what would his purpose be? First and foremost, regarding Mr. C, would be to get him back to the lodge so that Cooper could get back to the real world to follow through with his portion of the plan. In doing so, Judy doesn't get to reunite with Bob, I'm guessing. At any rate, maybe that line of thinking could be helpful in determining what Jeffries' ultimate role is, which is something I'll gladly leave to you and Axxon to decipher!


It’s just feeling more and me to me like there are three options:
1) Doppelganger goes back to the Lodge when the “stars turn and a time presents itself”; Cooper leaves and the Doppelganger reenters at the scheduled time. Mr. C defeats this with his tulpa-Dougie ploy.
2) The Doppelganger is killed and Bob is then free to roam the Earth as a rogue agent; we see this almost happen in Part 8, but the Woodsmen shove Bob back inside and heal the doppelganger to buy time. We again see it in Part 17, when the doppelganger dies and Bob is freed until Freddie (maybe) defeats him.
3) The Doppelganger is killed but the ring is immediately slipped onto his lifeless finger. Bob is trapped inside and doesn’t have a chance to escape. The whole package, Bob and all, are shipped back to the Red Room.

So, before Ray’s arrest (i.e., when option 1 was still on the table), Jeffries wanted Ray to kill the Doppel, but the ring seemingly wasn’t part of the equation. But perhaps Ray was only meant to kill the Doppel if and when option 1 failed (i.e., as a backup option, if he somehow managed to avoid going back in at 2:53). And if it came to that, Ray THEN would have been given the ring before doing the deed. That’s the most sense I can make of it tonight.

Also, if I am correct, and the only viable options are to let Bob roam the Earth as a destructive free spirit ruining lives, or send him back and give Judy what she wants (which, according to TFD, could result in the destruction of the world)...sheesh. What a choice to make.

Oh, and I was waiting to rewatch again to check this out, but there is a moment when Bobby is talking to Big Ed that is very clearly badly dubbed in, as though they had changed a bit of the dialogue. I'm very curious to know what they changed, and if it might clarify or has anything to do with the (now jumbled) timeline since it occurs right around the part when he says that they found some interesting stuff having to do with his dad "today."


I can’t recall if I ever noticed that. I’ll have to take a look for it. The timeline is really all over the damn place at this point. I’m shocked I was able to make as much sense of it as I did. That’s not a pat on the back for myself...there is an odd logic to it, despite how cheerfully messed-up it all is. I think that early in the planning L/F really did have it all charted out, and then between the epic scope, multiple locations and intersecting storylines, and Lynch’s penchant for improvisation, things started to shift, and in the editing Lynch decided to totally embrace that sense of time being elongated and distorted as a theme, especially in these later-middle Parts. I’d love to see an entire interview with Duwayne Dunham on this topic. I can just imagine the process...

Duwayne: “Dave, this scene can’t go here. Bobby lived a whole other day between these two scenes.”
Lynch: “Duwayne, sometimes time is a river and sometimes time is an ocean.”
Duwayne: “OK, Dave.”

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