Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

The Gazebo wrote:I thought about how a Sopranos revival a la The Return would look like: David Chase as the new mob boss, relocating his crew to Bahamas, and fighting multiple international zombie families for control over magical golden balls.
I know you're just goofing/venting, but TP has always been full of ideas that sound fucking terrible on paper (or when synopsizing the show for friends), ever since Episode 8 (which incidentally introduced the golden ball)...arguably since Episode 2. The main difference in TR is that the execution/approach of this material is no longer working for you.

And -- while Dougie is undeniably a different beast -- if we're going to put The Sopranos on a pedestal, let's not forget how divisive Kevin Finnerty was in his day.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by AnotherBlueRoseCase »

The Gazebo wrote:
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:I for one have found The Return most helpful in preparing me for entering the Black Lodge and then exiting it via multiple dimensions and stages of electric mystery twenty-five years later. Hack works like The Sopranos, The Wire and Mad Men pretended the issue didn't even exist.
I thought about how a Sopranos revival a la The Return would look like: David Chase as the new mob boss, relocating his crew to Bahamas, and fighting multiple international zombie families for control over magical golden balls.
With a dozen scenes meaningless to anyone who didn't attend the same macramé evening class as Chase in 2011.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by Mallard »

The Gazebo wrote:I thought about how a Sopranos revival a la The Return would look like: David Chase as the new mob boss, relocating his crew to Bahamas, and fighting multiple international zombie families for control over magical golden balls.
I'd watch.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by The Gazebo »

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I know you're just goofing/venting, but TP has always been full of ideas that sound fucking terrible on paper (or when synopsizing the show for friends), ever since Episode 8 (which incidentally introduced the golden ball)...arguably since Episode 2. The main difference in TR is that the execution/approach of this material is no longer working for you.

And -- while Dougie is undeniably a different beast -- if we're going to put The Sopranos on a pedestal, let's not forget how divisive Kevin Finnerty was in his day.
Yeah, the dream sequences (apparently inspired by Lynch) was a bit harder to connect with. But the show was still grounded in reality.

I'm not sure if it's just the execution/approach (the fragmentation, coldness, etc) which is disappointing, but the material in itself. I feared relatively early that this season was set up to be a pure supernatural affair, more or less, and so far it seems like this is the case. While episode 29 put us on this route, I'm disappointed that the supernatural has been magnified tenfolds, and much of the discussion seems to revolve around the actual mechanics of the mythology. Not exactly my cup of tea.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by krzhuva »

The Gazebo wrote:
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:I for one have found The Return most helpful in preparing me for entering the Black Lodge and then exiting it via multiple dimensions and stages of electric mystery twenty-five years later. Hack works like The Sopranos, The Wire and Mad Men pretended the issue didn't even exist.
I thought about how a Sopranos revival a la The Return would look like: David Chase as the new mob boss, relocating his crew to Bahamas, and fighting multiple international zombie families for control over magical golden balls.
Maybe he's already considering it:
I asked David Chase if he was watching the new Peaks and whether he thought it was as good as the original. “I think it’s greater,” he said, with the uninflected certainty of a man noting that the sky is blue.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

The Gazebo wrote:I'm not sure if it's just the execution/approach (the fragmentation, coldness, etc) which is disappointing, but the material in itself. I feared relatively early that this season was set up to be a pure supernatural affair, more or less, and so far it seems like this is the case. While episode 29 put us on this route, I'm disappointed that the supernatural has been magnified tenfolds, and much of the discussion seems to revolve around the actual mechanics of the mythology. Not exactly my cup of tea.
This is one of my issues with the season too, actually. In the original run, the mythology-based scenes tended to be (A) transcendentally weird and dreamlike, and/or (B) psychologically/allegorically interesting (the cycle of abuse stuff with Leland and Laura, particularly in TSDoLP and FWWM). The former element is still present for me in TR in some places (the gloriously spooky scene of the Woodsmen descending on Mr. C, the journey to Jeffries in Part 15), but a lot of it feels like Lost-style plot-driven mythology-for-the-pure-sake-of-it. I love Lost despite its many flaws, and there is something thrilling about seeing the TP Lodge mythology (especially the FWWM stuff) fleshed out and developed, but I have a feeling the stuff about "black fire," the vortexes, &c. won't be as satisfying in retrospect as, say, the reveal of garmonbozia. Honestly, while many in this thread have been blaming DKL for overindulging his whimsies and fascinations, the prevalence of expository mythology-dump material feels very Mark Frost, a la late S2 and TSHoTP, and completely unlike any prior DKL-directed work, to the extent that I'm rather surprised DKL left this material fully intact during the shoot, let alone in the edit.

And what is missing almost entirely to date is a psychological/allegorical element to the mythology. Given DKL's exploration of duality in LH, MD and IE, I'm truly shocked at how little the Mr. C storyline has said about Cooper's identity or sense of self. The doppel's scenes have been pretty much entirely a story-driven mythology-delivery device, which is really uncharacteristic of DKL. I'm truly curious to see how all of this pays off, but I am a little frightened that we're in for a more mythology-based/intellectual/"stereotypically Frostian" resolution, as opposed to the intuitive dreamy emotional Lynchian ending (a la IE) that I'm hoping for.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by David Locke »

Some great points being made here, as always.

As I've already said, I'm one who simultaneously enjoys/likes TR and also dislikes it. Or I guess I love some parts and hate others. But even the stuff I love feels of a different order than what was so great about the original run.

A lot of it boils down to that essence which can't be verbalized: atmosphere, mood, feel. I love the mood of the original series, and FWWM (which was very different while still being "the same" in many ways). But TR just doesn't deliver on this level much at all.

The original had such a mysterious, ominous, sensual glow to it. You could practically taste it, the colors and sound and whole world was so tactile and immersive and beautiful/horrific.

The world of TR is just banal. Between the mystery killing exposition and overtly literal approach to the mythology, and the flat and intentionally alienating photography, it's holding the viewer at a distance like the original never did. (The scene where Truman informed everyone of Margaret's death was a rare example of something that had the moody dark-sensuous lighting style of pre digital Lynch).

This is a big thing for me, and I just can't see myself wanting to revisit a world as ugly and bland and mean spirited as TR. On the other hand I can't see myself ever getting tired of revisiting TP and FWWM, as the former especially is so welcoming and enveloping even while being very disturbing and disquieting on a consistent basis. The much needed truth of FWWM did serve as a corrective to the original series's womblike idealized world of comfort and (sometimes) denial.

But the darkness of TR enlightens nothing, has no point and as has been noted is more plain cruelty or misanthropy than darkness. It's a dispiriting show to take in. It lacks life, in multiple different ways. I can only guess as to what happened.


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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by tresojos »

David Locke wrote:Some great points being made here, as always.

As I've already said, I'm one who simultaneously enjoys/likes TR and also dislikes it. Or I guess I love some parts and hate others. But even the stuff I love feels of a different order than what was so great about the original run.

A lot of it boils down to that essence which can't be verbalized: atmosphere, mood, feel. I love the mood of the original series, and FWWM (which was very different while still being "the same" in many ways). But TR just doesn't deliver on this level much at all.

The original had such a mysterious, ominous, sensual glow to it. You could practically taste it, the colors and sound and whole world was so tactile and immersive and beautiful/horrific.

The world of TR is just banal. Between the mystery killing exposition and overtly literal approach to the mythology, and the flat and intentionally alienating photography, it's holding the viewer at a distance like the original never did. (The scene where Truman informed everyone of Margaret's death was a rare example of something that had the moody dark-sensuous lighting style of pre digital Lynch).

This is a big thing for me, and I just can't see myself wanting to revisit a world as ugly and bland and mean spirited as TR. On the other hand I can't see myself ever getting tired of revisiting TP and FWWM, as the former especially is so welcoming and enveloping even while being very disturbing and disquieting on a consistent basis. The much needed truth of FWWM did serve as a corrective to the original series's womblike idealized world of comfort and (sometimes) denial.

But the darkness of TR enlightens nothing, has no point and as has been noted is more plain cruelty or misanthropy than darkness. It's a dispiriting show to take in. It lacks life, in multiple different ways. I can only guess as to what happened.


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this is one of the main issues i have with tr. but its kinda paying off now somehow. i dont know why, but the new episodes do give me that twin peaks feel, yet while maintaining that plastic feel tr has. idk, it clicked on me now. i also doubt the digital touch isnt intentional. still, the new season doesnt really work well as a standalone, while fwwm and the first two seasons do.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by sylvia_north »

The Gazebo wrote:[ I feared relatively early that this season was set up to be a pure supernatural affair, more or less, and so far it seems like this is the case. While episode 29 put us on this route, I'm disappointed that the supernatural has been magnified tenfolds, and much of the discussion seems to revolve around the actual mechanics of the mythology. Not exactly my cup of tea.
I'm trying SO HARD to like this I'm taking NOTES on Brian Greene's The Hidden Reality.
Mr. Reindeer wrote: I know you're just goofing/venting, but TP has always been full of ideas that sound fucking terrible on paper [...]
We are going to see the convertible driving backward to the creamed corn planet, aren't we? Throw it all in the trash compactor.
mlsstwrt wrote:Unfortunately there have been a LOT of BEE rip offs. And they're pretty much universally terrible. Have just finished one such book, 'You' by Caroline Kepnes.
haha I loved that book and the sequel . Better than a lot of BEE IMHO.
referendum wrote:copied from Guardian ( uk) website comments / user @reconstitutedghost:
I know he's a TM fella and all that, but does David Lynch think that death is a change and not an end (in any significant way)? If he does this series is starting to feel like a very elaborate Facebook share of new age gobbledygook.I've been a fan over half my life but I really think that as stunning as this show is to look at, and seems to be as a document of in fact spiritual inertia, it's ultimately hollow and won't go anywhere, and people won't notice it hasn't?

I can hardly believe the bands that finish the episodes are real - they're absolutely awful, like they're born of an infinite loop of self-parody. This sort of thing isn't just a matter of taste. Fecal matter isn't chocolate. The singer in The Veils is an utter prat, like a pound shop Nick Cave. Like a pound shop Pound Shop Nick Cave. Like a p...

I think this series has mostly been about David Lynch trying to be David Lynch, trying to remember his best self, knowing he is too rich and comfortable to be that person. This is why Good Coop is not doing a great job of waking up. This is why Cole and the other FBI fella were talking of 'beginning to remember' events from FWWM last week. That is sort of poignant in a way but there is no real consequence for Lynch. Bad Coop is strutting about unstoppable but his strutting is practically just data. Every morning Lynch gets up in the country where a moron is the president, and it doesn't inconvenience him at all. Is Lynch admitting this with any feeling? Does homelessness exist in Lynch's mind? We know an archetypal 'bum' does, like the one in Mulholland Drive, but is that apparent archetypal framework passe, something Lynch has clung to as a deceptively conservative person with deceptively lazy, credulous ideas. We often discuss how a bad person can be a good artist, we deconstruct an artist's ontological makeup, but a reputation can survive much. I sometimes begin to think that David Lynch is a great artist whose ontological makeup is largely fluff. I don't know, I'm trying to find my way. I published writing myself a decade ago for a few years and then succumbed to what feels like a similar inertia, albeit in poverty
.
Well said!

Guys I made a thread inadvertently praising stock footage. STOCK FOOTAGE that's how hard I'm reaching.

And yes msstwrt, I agree. It's still soapy with no gravity, more like Dual Spires than anything, but still thumbs up for it being horribly itself, terribly there. Toxic groupies, mockable fans- check and check.

Does not work as a standalone as the original (and Tarantino) did the heavy lifting- check
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Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by David Locke »

tresojos wrote:
David Locke wrote:Some great points being made here, as always.

As I've already said, I'm one who simultaneously enjoys/likes TR and also dislikes it. Or I guess I love some parts and hate others. But even the stuff I love feels of a different order than what was so great about the original run.

A lot of it boils down to that essence which can't be verbalized: atmosphere, mood, feel. I love the mood of the original series, and FWWM (which was very different while still being "the same" in many ways). But TR just doesn't deliver on this level much at all.

The original had such a mysterious, ominous, sensual glow to it. You could practically taste it, the colors and sound and whole world was so tactile and immersive and beautiful/horrific.

The world of TR is just banal. Between the mystery killing exposition and overtly literal approach to the mythology, and the flat and intentionally alienating photography, it's holding the viewer at a distance like the original never did. (The scene where Truman informed everyone of Margaret's death was a rare example of something that had the moody dark-sensuous lighting style of pre digital Lynch).

This is a big thing for me, and I just can't see myself wanting to revisit a world as ugly and bland and mean spirited as TR. On the other hand I can't see myself ever getting tired of revisiting TP and FWWM, as the former especially is so welcoming and enveloping even while being very disturbing and disquieting on a consistent basis. The much needed truth of FWWM did serve as a corrective to the original series's womblike idealized world of comfort and (sometimes) denial.

But the darkness of TR enlightens nothing, has no point and as has been noted is more plain cruelty or misanthropy than darkness. It's a dispiriting show to take in. It lacks life, in multiple different ways. I can only guess as to what happened.


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this is one of the main issues i have with tr. but its kinda paying off now somehow. i dont know why, but the new episodes do give me that twin peaks feel, yet while maintaining that plastic feel tr has. idk, it clicked on me now. i also doubt the digital touch isnt intentional. still, the new season doesnt really work well as a standalone, while fwwm and the first two seasons do.
I do think it's very much intentional, just as so much in TR likely is. And I also feel that Parts 14 & 15 were two of the very best of TR thus far, revving things up in an exciting way and indeed giving a more Peaks feel. Alas...

Even as the general theory of "TR becoming more Peaks-y as it goes on to mirror Cooper's own return to himself" has been pretty accurate, it's also inconsistent. For one thing, the music, especially the original/Badalamenti tunes, is oddly sparse even by Part 15. It's weird because in Parts 7 and 9 (and maybe 11), for example, there was much more original music, lots of use of the LP Theme and even a more obscure one like Night Bells (and Deer Meadow Shuffle!!). It was awesome and really did lend that TP feel while still feeling totally like a new work.

But outside of an occasional piece or two I don't feel like the last few episodes have been very Badalamenti heavy at all. At least, that steady increase of music from one part to the next as other TP elements increased as well seems to have kind of halted. I dunno, the editing and pace and rhythm of this thing is all so fragmented and unusual in an off putting, messy way.


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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by boske »

AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:It's sort of thrilling now to consider how audience-antagonistic the finale might actually be.
Yes, exactly my feelings here. Your whole post sums it perfectly, it is worth repeating the discussion in its entirety:
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:
judasbooth wrote: as Bowie found out back in the 1980s, there is nothing worse than making art that is just boring.
Amen. This is the heart of the matter.

As was said about 100 pages ago, the problem may be that that to pull off highly ambitious, deliberately audience-antagonistic work, you have to be at the absolute top of your game. Instead we have two guys who haven't worked together or in the medium for decades throwing out every rule book they can lay their hands on and then bravely/insanely attempting some of the most audacious artistic feats imaginable. The result has been not the controlled headwrecking chaos they were aiming for but just plain headwrecking chaos, not meditative room to breathe and slow down and consider everyday life from an intriguingly Lynchian angle, but some of the most dismally tedious stuff ever broadcast.

Many of us wouldn't still be posting here if The Return were merely disappointing. If that were the case we'd shrug it off as just another sequel that fell flat, an honourable failure in the vein of Treme or Not Fade Away. But The Return is something else. Trainwreck. Public nervous breakdown. Can't turn your eyes away.

It's sort of thrilling now to consider how audience-antagonistic the finale might actually be.
The Return is, short of a very few scenes for me, simply boring, dull, uninspiring, bland, banal, completely lacking that aura of mystique that the original(s) had. It is stale and largely visually repulsive. If I saw the Return walking toward me, I'd hurriedly cross to the other side of the street just to avoid it.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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and the flat and intentionally alienating photography, it's holding the viewer at a distance like the original never did.
i have heard this mentioned many times. I read an article by I think David Chase, who was talking about the photography in the original Twin Peaks, and he said that at the time, the focus and detail of the way things were filmed was new to him. He talked about things like the shots of the trees as seeming vivid in a way that TV images did usually not. I think he used the word hyper-real.

Coming to TP TR episode 1, the first thing that struck me in the glass box opening was this vivid quality of image. Sure the look is very different to TP 25 years ago, but the HD digital format the way Demming/ Lynch are using it gives the image an almost forensic quality of detail. This series looks great in stills. Occasionally we get bits of this film noir shadow moodiness just to prove that the dryness of the rest of it is a conscious choice. I personally like this very lit, shadow free way this series has been ( mostly) filmed. I think Lynch got it from Francis Bacon, who famously detested natural light and wanted to paint everything as lit by electric light bulbs - and included the bulb in the painting just to remind you. There is often a kind of ' room as box' very simplified shallow kind of perspective. The sets ups with 5 or so people talking are always very stagey and artificial, not at all naturalistic - the dialogue is recited as if at a read-through, rather than acted. It is this I find alienating, rather the the photography. The scene where Alfred explains blue rose to Tammy is an obvious example.
Whereas the naturalistic scenes of two people talking in the Roadhouse aren't like that atall. But what they have in common is this sense of focus - you really examine these people, like the camera is studying them, looking for something. Almost like specimens.

That comes back to what David Chase was talking about in the original series - that his impression of the photography was that it was hyper-real. This is what I think Lynch/ Demming are going for here. I don't find that it holds the viewer at a distance. For me, it makes me look in closer, past the surface. The sound, which is also very vivid and close focus in the way it is recorded, also drags me in. I like the fact there is hardly any music. The original TP was covered in music - ' always music in the air'. Now, not. The original TP looked great, but it was like looking into a bubble, a snow globe, another world. This TP is more like looking at our world, the world in front of our face, it is very prosaic. It looks like something is happening in front of your eyes. There is a sort of frankness about it: nothing is hidden, everything is exposed. It is not like an image that washes over you passively. I found myself several times thinking that Lynch/ Demming were deliberately drawing attention to the fact that what we are looking at is a representation. I don't find that distancing, it makes me look closer. The artifice of the FX being very exposed adds to that. For me, at least, this works. Sometimes the material is weak and drawn out, and there are other aspects of it i find alienating ( eg Lynch being inside his own series goofing around/ many of the other things people have mentioned in here) but i really can't see this problem with the image or the photography and it surprises me when people mention it. The series definitely has it's own recognisable 'look'.

I am not trying to persuade anyone to like something they don't like - if you find the photography alienating and flat, then you do. But to me, two minutes into part 1 of this, I thought - good. Thank god it looks modern and fresh. Great to actually see what is going on. So... i guess people look at the same thing, and see something different. That's the way it works...
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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Mr. Reindeer wrote:And what is missing almost entirely to date is a psychological/allegorical element to the mythology. Given DKL's exploration of duality in LH, MD and IE, I'm truly shocked at how little the Mr. C storyline has said about Cooper's identity or sense of self. The doppel's scenes have been pretty much entirely a story-driven mythology-delivery device, which is really uncharacteristic of DKL. I'm truly curious to see how all of this pays off, but I am a little frightened that we're in for a more mythology-based/intellectual/"stereotypically Frostian" resolution, as opposed to the intuitive dreamy emotional Lynchian ending (a la IE) that I'm hoping for.
Bingo, this has been clearly missing and is sorely missed. The only thing that came close to it was when DougieCoop looked himself in that mirror in his house in Las Vegas. They actually had him wear the same pajamas as in episode 29, simply IMO reinforcing that they clearly knew what they needed to do, and used that scene to simply send us a message that they chose not to pursue it any further (Edit: other than merely tease us that he was at that point on the verge of waking up).
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by referendum »

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
And what is missing almost entirely to date is a psychological/allegorical element to the mythology.
interesting point. But can counter that with: ep 8 sets up this very explicit ' yin yang' aspect to the mythology. The whole doppelganger theme also does this. The wish fulfilment theme keeps getting repeated. The ' who is dreaming who?' is fairly deep-seated as a theme ( for instance dougie at the doctor's / janey- e sees him as dreamboat , loads of other scenes filmed from only one characters POV of events.) The explicit psycho-drama of the audrey situation, deliberately left ambiguous as to whether it is real or not. Even crappy meta aspects like the ' monica belluci dream ' lean heavily on the whole thing being a psycho-drama as much as it is a record of real events.

There is a word in german 'vorgeschoben' which i like very much and has no equivalent in English. It means when you have something on your mind very important but you talk about something else, and misdirect, to detract attention from the thing you don't want people to talk about. The audrey story is an object lesson in this. But then some of the more overt things, like the green glove, or the ' frostian' mythology exposition, also come over like this. What do people do when confronted with something irrational? They try and rationalise it. Rationalisation - as a sort of defence mechanism to deal with stuff we don't understand or instinctively are very wary of being dragged into - can be an example of ' vorgeschoben'. So whenever the FBI / Albert go into this ABCDE neat narrative rationalised easy-to-swallow package, to explain ''the absurd mystery of the strange forces of existence'' there is a point where I think you are INTENDED to think that this is a load of tinfoil garbage, or at least, a suggestion that the flat foot authorities are as much in the dark as we are. Rationality is reasonable and cautious defence mechanism. But what if a defence mechanism isn't the answer? What if the idea of a defence mechanism is as stupid as a green glove? What if the answer is ' letting go' and going with the flow? I think Lynch is up to something like this. He is after all an ageing hippy, albeit an unusual one.

If i am wrong about this, and you are supposed to genuinely believe that the FBI are all seeing and all knowing, then the psychological angle is, as you say, absent. Me, I think the so-called FBI are deliberately / constantly put in inverted commas, and made to look one step behind us ( all this explaining of stuff we already get). If there is a sense that the FBI represent a ( sorry ) sarcastic right brain distancing rationalisation and that other more emotional or sincere or in-yer-face attempts to figure out what is going on ( andy - empathy / dougie - intuition / nadine/ naido / stephen+gersten etc etc ) have an equal weight , then we are back to this central theme of duality again. Which provides what you call a 'psychological/allegorical element to the mythology'.

To put it in a nutshell, you could see the whole series as a working ( but inefficient) model of how the brain works. We get ( quoting lynch) 'one piece of the puzzle thrown over the wall at a time, in a random order' and we never get to see the whole puzzle until we have all the pieces...which we can never have, and never get. There are always more. That is the nature of a '' continuing story'' and why he is suspicious of the closure that formats impose. Because it is pyschologically wrong.

just a suggestion...
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Re: RE: Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by AhmedKhalifa »

The Gazebo wrote:
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:I for one have found The Return most helpful in preparing me for entering the Black Lodge and then exiting it via multiple dimensions and stages of electric mystery twenty-five years later. Hack works like The Sopranos, The Wire and Mad Men pretended the issue didn't even exist.
I thought about how a Sopranos revival a la The Return would look like: David Chase as the new mob boss, relocating his crew to Bahamas, and fighting multiple international zombie families for control over magical golden balls.
Lol! Exactly.

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