Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

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BigEd
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby BigEd » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:16 pm

Ragnell wrote:"I'm going to test this deathtrap on my son" is NOT mitigated by his son being a horrible person.


Of course it is! We all hate Richard. We're supposed to hate Richard. Richard ran over a little boy and tried to kill a nice lady who looked after small children. Richard terrorized his Grandmother and his disabled uncle. Richard terrorized a girl at the Roadhouse. We've all been hoping for weeks/months that Richard would get something like this. What am I missing?? :?:
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Esselgee » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:17 pm

Ross wrote:
Esselgee wrote:How could Audrey imagine Eddie Vedder if she's been in a coma all this time? Pearl Jam weren't even around back then.

Music played in her room.


Even if someone did that, she wouldn't know the name Pearl Jam much less Eddie's Vedder's real name. I guess someone decided to read her Eddie's Vedder's Wikipedia entry one day.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby BigEd » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:18 pm

nonemoreblack wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if some of the those scenes were real and some weren't, just to add to the dreamy feel of the Roadhouse.


Yes. Exactly this!
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby PeteMartell » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:19 pm

Wow. What a brilliant episode. What Lynch/Frost are doing is so incredible it really goes beyond television. They are using television as a transcendental and alchemical vehicle to talk about much more profound questions of consciousness, memory, existence, and our own direct psychological experience as viewers. (Of the show and of our own mind/life/ego).
We are all the dreamers.

A lot of great theories on this thread so far, I've enjoyed reading. I'm not going to reiterate what's already been said, but here are a few other thoughts:

1. The license plate of Mr.C in the dark road reads SW 51. What is that? A subtle reference to Area 51? Could connect to the audrey abducted by aliens theory. Or at least connected to Doug Milford (Dougie Milford?!?!?) from TSHOTP and the project blue book work he was involved with in the 50s.

2. The father (Mr. C) killing the son (Richard) scene really had some deep biblical Abraham and Isaac resonance for me. That was heavy and just awful. Not that he was doing it because god asked him to but still a sacrifice nonetheless.

3. Diane as a Tulpa. Wow. Did not see that coming. Once she was in the red waiting room, sitting in that extremely nice chair, the smoke started coming out of her and it really looked like the black fire that Hawk mentioned on his map. What is that black smoke/fire I wonder, and what is the gold "seed"? Is the black smoke a representation of bad karma and the gold seed the "Buddha Mind"? Forgive the very specific reference but as Lynch is a meditation practitioner, I wonder if that's relevant. This is something that's discussed a lot in Buddhist commentary, particularly in Tibetan traditions. Sort of a concentration of the "seed of enlightenment" that exist in all sentient beings and the key to escaping from the endless wheel of birth death and rebirth in the illusory world of samsara? Now that cooper is "woke" as F, maybe he is then like a "bodhissatva" who can consciously reincarnate back into the world and remember his past lives in order to help liberate all sentient beings from suffering? (See shantideva's 700ad text: way of the boddhisattva)

4. The scarab beetle on the screen in the casino seemed noteworthy, an earlier post comments on this. I wonder if the symbology of the scarab beetle, which seems to be in front of a dimly visible pyramid, is in some way another representation of a culture obsessed with death and reincarnation, described in the Egyptian book of the Dead...a book that was included in the coffin of the mummified Pharoahs to guide them through the afterworld. The scarabs were often made with the same green stone that the Lodge ring is made from. The scarab beetles were seen as a representation of transformation and resurrection:

Quoting from Wikipedia:
"Beetles of the Scarabaeidae family (dung beetle) roll dung into a ball as food and as a brood chamber in which to lay eggs; this way, the larvae hatch and are immediately surrounded by food. For these reasons the scarab was seen as a symbol of this heavenly cycle and of the idea of rebirth or regeneration. The Egyptian god Khepri, Ra as the rising sun, was often depicted as a scarab beetle or as a scarab beetle-headed man. The ancient Egyptians believed that Khepri renewed the sun every day before rolling it above the horizon, then carried it through the other world after sunset, only to renew it, again, the next day."

Just speculating here, but the idea of the eqyptian gods rolling orbs across the sky seems oddly similar to the fireman and senorita dido sending out the golden Laura Orb to earth, not to mention the BOB orb in the shadow world coming out of the Mother/Experiment.

It's all very exciting. I'm going to start crying when this season is over.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby alreadygoneplaces » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:21 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
thedarktrees wrote:A minor point, but wondering what people think about this: WHY would Cooper say that he knows that the Mitchum bros have hearts of gold???

As much as I thought the Mitchum brothers were amazing character in this season, how could Coop of all people come to think they have hearts of gold? I mean they viciously beat one of their employees while firing him when they lost money on the jackpots. I'm not sure they've done a whole lot to redeem themselves since then. Even their care and concern for Dougie is only because they cashed in with a $30M insurance claim because of him. Not so gold-hearted there either.

Maybe the bar is low after being in the Black Lodge for 25 years. I don't know.


This bugged me too. Bradley was ITCHING to murder Dougie, so it seems pretty likely they've killed people in the past. Doesn't reflect super well on our Dale's judgment.


I thought that either the 'hearts of gold' remark was either a wry joke and the Mitchums are these so-called 'tulpas'* or it's clumsy writing. I'd lean towards the latter. The former wouldn't make much sense, but who knows what's in store for those dudes. Belushi did have that dream, I guess.

*don't have time to go into why, but I really wish they hadn't explicitly called them that

I'm really, really surprised to see this episode being received so kindly. My first impressions tonight weren't good at all, possibly even my least favourite episode. I'll watch again before criticising, but probably the Mixed/moderately disappointed thread would be the place for such a post to go. It did have a couple of nice moments, and a significant saving grace in that revealing Diane as a thoughtform created by an act of violence gets us closer towards the solid conceptual ground of the original + FWWM which many had commented had become unstable, if not lost altogether.
Last edited by alreadygoneplaces on Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:24 pm

RainingPostToasties wrote:I don't remember the last time a piece of televised entertainment made me say "Oh, shit," aloud as many times as tonight.

Cooper's return, Diane, Audrey, vaporized Richard, the botched hit. Every scene tonight was highly consequential.

I suppose Cooper doesn't plan on coming back since he's having another Dougie manufactured for Janey-E. Heartbreak!


Ooh, I hadn't thought of it that way.

I was already getting ready to fight people who were saying Cooper wanted to manufacture a tulpa to go live with Janey-E and Sunny Jim. After that touching scene in the casino, my thought was Cooper was planning to return himself after killing Evil Cooper and live out his days as Dougie. I don't know how plausible it would be to resume life as Dale Cooper, after Evil Coop has been putting his DNA and (admittedly, slightly different) fingerprints all over no doubt hundreds of crime scenes for 25 years. I doubt "I was trapped in another dimension while my doppleganger was commiting crimes" is going to go over with a jury, so ... if Cooper kills Evil Coop, lets the world think that is rogue FBI Special Agent Dale Cooper who's dead and then just go live as Dougie, that would be a beautiful ending to the series. A few people would now the truth: Gordon/Albert/Tammy, probably Truman and Hawk and maybe Bobby and Andy and Lucy, but they would all keep quiet about it. I hadn't really given much thought to why Cooper desperately wanted to create another tulpa.

But your theory, as much as it depresses me, does sound quite reasonable. Cooper expects to die and wants a duplicate to be there for Janey-E and Sunny Jim. The final shot, after we see Cooper's death, could be of tulpa Cooper walking through that red door. And while that would be ... sort of a happy ending? ... it's not the ending I want.
Last edited by sewhite2000 on Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:25 pm

Esselgee wrote:
Ross wrote:
Esselgee wrote:How could Audrey imagine Eddie Vedder if she's been in a coma all this time? Pearl Jam weren't even around back then.

Music played in her room.


Even if someone did that, she wouldn't know the name Pearl Jam much less Eddie's Vedder's real name. I guess someone decided to read her Eddie's Vedder's Wikipedia entry one day.


Evidence it's not a coma- it's a proper parallel reality. Also happy we know for sure Mr C wasn't calling the shots in season 1 & 2somehow. He was born when Cooper entered the lodge.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby BigEd » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:30 pm

PeteMartell wrote:2. The father (Mr. C) killing the son (Richard) scene really had some deep biblical Abraham and Isaac resonance for me. That was heavy and just awful. Not that he was doing it because god asked him to but still a sacrifice nonetheless.


Brilliant! I guess great minds think alike!? :shock:

BigEd wrote:
Ashok wrote:Mr. C said he got 3 sets of coordinates, 2 are fake are 1 is real.

If I understand this correctly, Jeffries and Diane are both working against Mr. C and gave him fake coordinates to kill him? But the set he got from Ray are real?


I took it that Jeffries and Ray both provided coordinates that would get Mr. C killed. He saw through this and sacrificed his son on the rock (ala Isaac).


Of course, there really isn't a parallel since Abraham did not kill Isaac, as God provided a substitute sacrifice (sounds a lot like the basis for Christianity, but probably not the right forum). :)
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:33 pm

ThumbsUp wrote:I love how Coop, despite being trapped in Dougie, seemed to fall in love with a community he had suddenly been thrust into (like he did in TP), and they all loved him back. So good.


I loved this, too! "You have made my heart so full," I think Cooper said. Even though he couldn't respond at a conscious level, his speech makes me feel all those endless episodes of DougieCoop weren't a complete waste after all! Cooper experienced for the first time in his life the love of being a husband and a father and he intends to either truly return to them himself or send a tulpa in his place should he end up getting killed.

I do recall several people on here suggesting that Janey-E was never actually giving Cooper genuine love, that she was a selfish, heartless beyotch who only accepted Dougie Coop because it resulted in material goods and money just endlessly being shoveled in her direction (right up to this episode, with the Mitchem Brothers fully stocking her house!). I wonder how those people feel now.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby iar » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:36 pm

Wow. Just wow.

What an episode. I finished the hour with tears rolling down my face; I have no idea why. One of those magical Lynchian moments.

Richard frying was fabulous, Coop waking up was fabulous, Laura Dern in the Red Room.. wonderful!.. and Audrey? My god. Maybe one of my favourite ever TP scenes.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Ross » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:36 pm

cgs027 wrote:
vicksvapor77 wrote:Do we think the coordinates where Richard died were the two matching or other one? Like did he send him to the non-matching one and lie to him about it because he thought it might be a trap?

And who are the three people that sent him coordinates? Who sent the two matching set vs. the other set? Did Diane ever sent him any as far as we know before this episode? And did Diane send Mr. C the "right" or "wrong" coordinates in this episode?

Also, Diane was manufactured by Evil Cooper we assume, right? Based on Phillip Gerard's comment, he did it without him? But Cooper needs Gerard's help and hair to make one?

And what do we make of Mr. C's comment about him being only 25 years older than Richard? Is he only counting his "years on Earth"?


I took it to mean the 3 coordinates came from: Diane (via text), Ray (via paper in his pocket), and Jefferies (via smoke signals). Still not sure who I think had the "correct" ones vs the ones that were meant to fry him...

My assumption is the 2 false (trap) coordinates came from Ray and Jeffries. As TulpaDiane seems to be under Mr C's control. But this would mean that Ray really WAS working with Jeffries, correct?
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:38 pm

Esselgee wrote:So does everyone else agree that Jerry definitely recognized Richard and possibly Cooper through his binoculars, even though looking through binoculars that way wouldn't have magnified anything?

Will he go tell Ben about what he saw?


Can anyone confirm if Jerry said anything legible after Richard's apparent death? It sounded to me like he was crying out, "Ben! Ben! Ben!", but I wasn't sure. If he was, it would indicate he knew he was looking at Richard, though I have no idea how he could make him out through tiny lens (maybe Sparkle gives him super-vision!).
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:45 pm

FlyingSquirrel wrote:
MarFRELL wrote:Was tulpa Diane saying "I am the sheriff's office" or was i mishearing??

And on a similar vein, what did the guy shout when interrupting Audrey's dance?

I think i need to borrow Gordon's hearing aid


Something like "that's my wife, asshole!"

At first I wondered if this was another confrontation between James and Renee's husband, or perhaps even Bobby and Red, and I just didn't recognize them, but the credits list "Throwing Man" and "Man hit with Bottle," so I assume that's them (i.e. new characters we haven't seen before).


What a scene. I'm exhausted from all my expectations shifting so suddenly and dramatically. I mean, Audrey and Charlie walked in the door, and I was like, holy shit! They exist in the real world, after all! And then she started dancing, and I thought nope, still in coma dream. And then a fight broke out and a guy screaming about his wife, and I thought, "This is the James fight! Audrey was there for that, we just didn't see her! Real world after all!" and then I realized it was not the James fight, and once again it was not the real world.

I mean, I'm exhausted from those handful of minutes!
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Cooperscoffeecup » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:48 pm

Rewatched Diane's scene. After she received her text she texts back a series of numbers. (I presumed that the ALL meant that she hadn't sent the full set of numbers?) When she is in the room she looks at the text again ( :-) ALL ) And then says she I am at the sheriff's station twice and then "i sent him the co-ordinates (to the??) Sheriffs station, because I, because I am is not me." I take it then that Mr C is headed to the Sheriffs station at Twin Peaks, along with Cooper and the Mitchams, and given Gordon mentioned the sheriffs station, Gordon, Albert and Tammy?
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:56 pm

N. Needleman wrote:Whoo. Okay. Wild! So:

I'm assuming there was, once, a real Diane Evans, and that the Bad Dale raped her, took her to the convenience store (which seems to be a kind of floating waystation for Lodge beings, perhaps moving from place to place around the world - maybe that's why they called it "the Dutchman", as in Flying Dutchman) and either destroyed her or imprisoned her - and then replaced her with a tulpa. But the tulpa Diane was too strong-willed and fought its creator's commands, hence the events of tonight. I hope we get some closure on that thread with Diane in the finale. Great showcase for Laura Dern though. You could do a miniseries just about the Diane mystery. So much left unknown.

People had guessed something extra-normal was up with Audrey, and after part 13 I became convinced they were right, even though it's unusual for Lynch to play with multiple levels of reality in the context of Twin Peaks. But then he's done a lot since Twin Peaks, including Mulholland Drive and Lost Highway. I actually thought Coma? Institution? Audrey looked better than overly made up Audrey. I'm glad her character is turning out to be very central after all.

I loved everything with Coop, the Vegas gang and Janey-E and Sonny Jim. It's clear he is creating a new Dougie for them - shades of Ronnie Rocket or One Saliva Bubble - but I wish he would stay with Janey. I love them together. I just hope the new model Dougie is a significant improvement on the old one. Maybe because our Coop makes it?


I thought tulpa Diane had immersed herself enough into the experience of being human, coupled with having real Diane's emotions and memories, that it made her resistant to Evil Cooper's manipulations. I don't know if tulpas experience as a certain subconscious sense of their own hollowness, but both Diane and Dougie Jones seemed to need to numb themselves constantly with booze and relatively meaningless sexaul encounters. Anyway, it appears Diane was "triggered" to remember her true self and her true function by the text, which I think was go kill Gordon, but she struggled with herself just long enough to allow Tammy and Albert to take her down. In that way, I think her final actions were heroic. And I love her being true to herself to the very end. "You are a construct." "I know. Fuck you." Ah ha ha ha ha ha.

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