Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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Agent Earle
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by Agent Earle »

powerleftist wrote:
It's the same with Annie: everybody must know what happened to Cooper's girlfriend. It is not a mystery. It is a manufactured, cheap mystery designed to keep viewers watching; everybody, I repeat, everybody in town knows this information, and still it is kept from us.

This is not how a good screenwriter creates suspense.
Couple that with the fact the show concludes without us ever getting the answer to that question and you can't help but feel that these two particular screenwriters split with a giant F-U to the audience. If that's not contempt for their viewers - or rather longtime fans, to be precise -, I don't know what is.
Last edited by Agent Earle on Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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future's past
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by future's past »

I love you guys, but if you really think that Frost and Lynch are writing to specifically piss you guys off, then I reckon you're way off. They are not. Wonderment is cool and it's not all about the payoff.
Kilmoore
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by Kilmoore »

powerleftist wrote:Things like Richard being Audrey's son worked as mysteries only because such basic information was hidden from the audience.
future's past wrote: Wonderment is cool and it's not all about the payoff.
Wonderment of a mystery is cool, wonderment of basic plot elements is poor writing.
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AhmedKhalifa
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by AhmedKhalifa »

Joe McCluskey wrote:Like many others in this thread, I have been pretty underwhelmed by this new season. I recently made a brief video talking about David Lynch's self-indulgence in THE RETURN, particularly when it comes to the character of Gordon Cole. Here's a link to the video if you have any interest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVy51xrDzpk :wink:
Thanks for this. Well done, and calls out Lynch for some truly cringe-worthy moments and decisions.
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AhmedKhalifa
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by AhmedKhalifa »

Agent Earle wrote:
powerleftist wrote:
It's the same with Annie: everybody must know what happened to Cooper's girlfriend. It is not a mystery. It is a manufactured, cheap mystery designed to keep viewers watching; everybody, I repeat, everybody in town knows this information, and still it is kept from us.

This is not how a good screenwriter creates suspense.
Couple that with the fact the show concludes without us ever getting the answer to that question and you can't help but feel that these two particular screenwriters split with a giant F-U to the audience. If that's not contempt for their viewers - or rather longtime fans, to be precise -, I don't know what is.
If you think about it, they basically left us at almost exactly the same place we were 25 years ago: We don't know sh*t about Annie, we have no idea what happened to Audrey, and Coop is left in limbo. We're left hanging, with the addition of a bad taste in the mouth after all the crap we've had to swallow over those 18 hours. Even if it's not a F U to the audience, it's at least cruel and unusual punishment for being lifelong fans.
Last edited by AhmedKhalifa on Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Eva Marie
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by Eva Marie »

"We're left hanging, with the addition of a bad taste in the mouth after all the crap we had to swallow over those 18 hours. Even if it's not a F U to the audience, it's at least cruel and unusual punishment for being lifelong fans."

Yep. Although I'm so, so glad that Lynch's willy is doing OK. I can now sleep at night knowing that. Far more important information than how Annie is, amirite? :roll:
Eva Marie
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by Eva Marie »

I've actually been on a binge of feel-good material to wash out the terrible taste left by TR. :cry:
AnotherBlueRoseCase
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by AnotherBlueRoseCase »

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Cipher
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by Cipher »

You've dropped a bomb on me above that I'm unfortunately not much able to respond to beyond saying that I think we're basically on the same page in believing that, if the Bob scene is to be taken as something that works, it must have an intentional element of dissatisfaction to it for one reason or another. (I'm of the belief that it does and does, respectively, though the latter is different from the specific Judy-centric theory posted above, especially if it subsumes the whole of the show rather than just the camp of the Bob scene.)

I also think we're on the same page in that I can see how this might be an indefensible element for some, as it is for you.
You may disagree with this, Cipher, but it’s has long been evident to me that the one group who’ve completely misunderstood this series are those Ultras claiming it has few such troubling aspects, the dialogue has been not just convincing but Mad Men-grade throughout, their suspension of disbelief has been uninterrupted, they’ve been there every single enthralling moment in the insurance office, identifying completely with every Emmy-worthy performance, ducking behind the couch whenever RussellBrandCoop smoulders, and so on.
Ah, well, that gets a little complicated. I'd tell anyone who cites this season for stellar dialogue in the conventional mode that they're off their rocker. (Much as I love Mad Men to death and would still consider it my favorite show over Twin Peaks, I'd also be remiss to not point out that its dialogue occasionally goes a bit over the top as well, though that's rare. It's mostly really, really good in terms of both characterizing and establishing a believable but self-consistent style.)

I haven't seen many people make those claims, though, because Lynch's aura of off-kilter artifice is so strong. Most of the dialogue in The Return is of a piece with his films, occupying the same, effective, uncanny place -- simultaneously serving as a reminder that you're watching something filmed, and, in a seemingly contradictory way, that conversation really is full of off-kilter oddities that we rarely force ourselves to listen for or confront. It's posed; it's bizarre; it's clumsy.

But, to make sure I'm responding fully and honestly to your comment, I do think The Return contains some of Lynch's least effective dialogue, relative to his own style rather than that of completely different types of fiction. (Mad Men is stylized realism; The Return is most certainly not.) These mostly occur during expository moments with Cole's group or the sheriff station gang, and I don't love them. They're not as bad as they would be in a piece of realism or even something less confidently stylized, but there are moments that don't seem to have been given proper love, where dialogue doesn't characterize as well as it should even in his typically stilted mode.

So I agree with you but also don't. I think there's an issue there, but it's neither as severe as you're making it out to be nor because of the comparisons you're offering.

In summary, Mad Men is a very good show. Maybe we can just shake hands on that.
AnotherBlueRoseCase
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by AnotherBlueRoseCase »

Cipher wrote:
In summary, Mad Men is a very good show. Maybe we can just shake hands on that.
Indeed. All the best, Cipher.
Lynch on Trump, mid-2018: "He could go down as one of the greatest presidents in history."
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bowisneski
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by bowisneski »

I've tried writing this post three or four different times, but my words always end up becoming some sort of weird mush because of all the different ways I feel about this series. I actually loved it very much, yet still feel disappointed with it. And the reasons for that feeling are contradictory and don't lead to any sort of real conclusion. More just an airing of my thoughts, though I will try to keep it to focus most on disappointments and keep my love brief.

I thought it really failed on a plot level. It feels like this comes directly out of the back half of Season 2 where the mythology is truly fleshed out and the Red Room becomes a real place even though there was no real mythology in place before that. This causes you to actually have to deal with this stuff, instead of focusing on the mundanity of a world inhabited by evil that may or may not be real. I feel like there are at least three different Twin Peaks, not talking about multiple dimensions. There is the Pilot through Episode 15, Episodes 16 - 28, and Episode 29 - Part 18, with FWwM trying to tie all three together. Up until Episode 16 the supernatural is not explicit. Yes we have BOB looking back at Leland in the mirror in 14 and 15, but we don't really get BOB as an actual inhabiting spirit until Episode 16 when he leaves Leland. I know this is all open to interpretation, but I feel this is where the failing, from a straight plot non-interpretive perspective, of the Lynch/Frost collaboration comes about and continues through TR. That's not to say I don't like the mythology and supernatural stuff, it just becomes something different when the world now exists through a supernatural forces lens that makes it different and no longer the Twin Peaks of memory. I also think, and mean no disrespect, that this pulls it a little bit out of the realm of Lynch and what he does best. There is this fight between the mythology and plot of Frost and the surrealism and intuition of Lynch.

There were a lot of plot things that could've been done better this season, but I think Episode 29 truly made it so we could never go back to Twin Peaks in the way that I think even those that are in love with the whole of TR would have liked to without feeling hollow and same-y. Which is why I don't think we should have seen any of the town of Twin Peaks until at least halfway through, if not later. This is no longer the story of the town of Twin Peaks, it is the story of Dale Cooper and Laura Palmer. Those should have been the through lines. I would never want the following thing cut, because they helped the mood of the thing as a whole that I loved, but there is a stronger show there from a plot perspective if you cut Ed, Norma, Nadine, Jacoby, Shelly, Becky, Steven, and Beverly and Tom, and replace Diane with Annie and Tammy with Diane. It's sort of like watching the released cut of FWwM and the Missing Pieces separately vs watching the Q2 edit of FWwM. The story of FWwM suffers in the Q2 edit, but you get more of what most people wanted which is more of the people and the town and the feeling of the original. If all of the Twin Peaks vignettes with those characters had been cut and put in to Missing Pieces on the bluray and the show we actually got was just Vegas, Buckhorn, the sheriff's department/Richard Horne stuff in Twin Peaks, and the travels of Mr. C, you would have the stronger through line and this would have been Cooper's FWwM.

I disliked the lack of music in the Twin Peaks scenes overall. I feel like the actual Twin Peaks-y music shouldn't be used outside of Twin Peaks, and I don't think it was besides the theme when Cooper wakes up. But, it should have been used in more of the scenes set in the town. Yet I loved the music and the sound design that we got. It was rich, layered, and mood provoking without hitting you over the head like the music in the original series did(even if it was in a way that I enjoyed).

I was not happy with it being shot on digital, as I prefer the look of film.

However, I loved the experience of watching and can't wait to do so again. I just want to steep in this series, even though I wasn't really engaged by the main thrust of the plot. The atmosphere and world are so clearly Lynch and Frost and provided me exactly what I wanted out of the series in those regards. There's something about the earnestness and care with which it was all presented that makes me appreciate it more on an experience level as well. Overall I wanted something new, something different, something to make me ponder, something to make me feel genuine emotion outside of a return to comfort(which is all most reboots have made me feel) and this show provided those things in spades. But the thought of all of those things with a stronger plot that would have eschewed some of what I love is what leaves me in a space where I am both in love with the show and disappointed.

In the end, the paradox is that I think TR failed at returning to the Twin Peaks of old feeling wise, especially of the Pilot - Episode 15, but succeeded as a return to the world/universe inhabited by the town of Twin Peaks, Dale Cooper, and Laura Palmer. It's why I think, like with FWwM, we got the title of Twin Peaks with a subtitle below it because it is no longer truly Twin Peaks. Yet, I felt that the very last scene returned us to Twin Peaks in feeling and clearing the baggage of the existing mythology while still being related.

Thanks to all the posters in here who were willing to engage in dialogue and fully laid out their issues in coherent and rational thought out ways. I'm also sorry to all of you that are truly profoundly disappointed by the entirety of TR. It makes me sad to see any lover of Twin Peaks left feeling hurt by TR/having their experience of the original tainted.
Saela
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by Saela »

The most tangible thing Mr. C wanted was to get rid of Cooper, and in Part 2 he showed Darya that card with Judy on it and says: "This is what I want". Later we learn that Judy is an extreme negative force, so I think it's safe to say Evil Coop's big goal was to unleash this negative force onto Twin Peaks and the world, which would obviously be an atomic bomb-level catastrophy. I admit that his motivations could have been more defined, but I was so focused on finding out when and how Cooper would wake up, that I didn't mind Coopelganger's lack of a clearly stated goal.

Also, I think the main reason why so much time was spent with the Mitchum Brothers and Janey-E (and to a lesser extent the woman at the Casino and others) was to show how much joy and positivity DougieCoop brought to the world, in stark contrast to everything the doppelganger did. (Not to mention the fact that the Mitchum's got the good Dale back to Twin Peaks just in time :wink: )
Agent Earle
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by Agent Earle »

Eva Marie wrote:I've actually been on a binge of feel-good material to wash out the terrible taste left by TR. :cry:
Can you recommend something? :)
Rialto
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by Rialto »

@AnotherBlueRoseCase - I can't decide if you're a genius, or if TPTR has broken you :lol:
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by Rialto »

For those who are truly, profoundly disappointed, I highly recommend the last edition of The Twin Peaks Podcast. Not for those who loved it with reservations, but personally I found it hilarious: https://itunes.apple.com/ie/podcast/the ... 0392072773

It's probably the most enjoyment I've derived from the whole season...
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