Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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Jasper
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Jasper » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:00 am

Looks like Sabrina Sutherland has confirmed that young Laura Palmer was in fact played by Sheryl Lee in The Return.

https://www.reddit.com/r/twinpeaks/comm ... &context=3

Sabrina.png
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I'd been leaning towards it being a different actress, but now that seems significantly less likely. A different actress would probably have made things easier, but there's something beautiful about the idea that Laura Palmer is always Sheryl Lee, and that the scenes in The Return with Dale Cooper leading Laura Palmer are in fact acted by Kyle MacLachlan and Sheryl Lee, just like their scenes in the first two seasons, and in FWWM.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:23 am

''let's not overthink this opportunity''
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:55 pm

It’s really remarkable what a straight-down-the-middle split this Part is for me: a half hour that doesn’t work for me AT ALL, where this season’s worst tendencies take over and things completely derail, followed by an incredibly powerful, hypnotic, beautiful half hour (heralded by the arrival of the transparent superimposed Coop-head).

To me, Diane’s relationship to Cooper is possibly the richest, most intriguing addition to the show’s mythology in S3. As I’ve said elsewhere, and without wanting to impose too literal a meaning on it, there is definitely SOMETHING at play beyond Diane being a flesh-and-blood mortal human, especially given her relationship to the “We live inside a dream” Cooper-head. Note that the superimposed Dale head appears as soon as Coop recognizes Naido as Diane (and seems to turn away with a look of guilt), and the head disappears briefly twice before its final departure, both times relating to Diane. The first time, it vanishes when the faceless Naido-head in the Red Room cracks open, and returns as soon as the “real” Diane regains her own head/face. The second time, it disappears when Dale and Diane kiss, and reappears when they pull apart (but are notably still touching), after he asks if she remembers everything. The second instance possibly implies that contact with Diane makes Cooper whole, briefly uniting the two Coopers onscreen.

Note also that the superimposed head speaks its one line in the same deep, artificially altered, deliberate cadence Mr. C used in his Hannibal Lecter prison interviews.

Although nothing came of the Diane/“-andies” speculation, I think it’s too big a coincidence to ignore in light of Naido. The girls show up in their usual subservient roles, and Candie’s curtain call is a dreamy, “It’s a good thing we made so many sandwiches.” There’s a lot to dig into here, in the Diane and/or Gender threads.

I wonder what it is that Diane remembers. Part 18 seems to imply that she and Coop had a plan of their own, separate from Garland and Gordon. Part of me suspects that she actually remembers the events of Part 18, or some other version of them, if time is cyclical (or at least, not a straight line). I also wonder if this corresponds to tulpa-Diane in Part 16 saying that she remembers, after receiving Mr. C’s “:-) ALL” text (which, again, oddly comes right before she tries to kill Gordon...).

Speaking of time being cyclical, it’s sure interesting that Jeffries conjures up an “8” (or possibly a sideways infinity symbol) with a little pinball doing an endless unbroken figure-8, just before sending Coop into what some have speculated may be an infinite temporal loop (the implication that he loses Laura twice or perhaps many more times, the repetition of footage from Part 2, &c.). I also really like the “8” turning sideways while the pinball adapts instantly to its new course, as if moving from a three-dimensional universe to a two-dimensional one. (This also reminded me of Rust Cohle's "time is a flat circle" from True Detective.)

Jeffries seems to have taken on godlike status. Mike seems to be somewhat in awe of him, or at least intrigued and respectfully quiet. Garland is also doing alright for himself, chilling with the Fireman in what may or may not be the White Lodge.

Interesting that Gordon seems to have at least an inkling of Jeffries’s evolution. The show keeps it pretty ambiguous whether or not Gordon has spoken to Jeffries at all since FWWM — Coop apparently hasn’t, and Albert had at least one implied contact, when the man in Colombia was killed.

The key inside Chad’s heel is so Get Smart/Man from UNCLE. I love it.. It feels like Mark wearing his formative TV-viewing preferences on his sleeve. In a similar vein, we get the second Marx Bros. allusion of the season, with Jay Ferguson getting to deliver a great Chico-esque line (and Albert’s response is probably my favorite line of his this season).

Why does Andy leave the “drunk” in the cells when he brings everyone else up? The treatment of that character by the sheriff’s station crew is so strange. It’s almost like he doesn’t exist to anyone but Chad. Wonder what if anything this has to do with Audrey’s seemingly tenuous relationship with the season’s “reality,” and the fact that Billy, Tina &c. seemingly actually exist outside Audrey’s dreamspace.

There has been debate in other threads about the sheriff’s station crew’s reaction to Mr. C, given what they should know at this point. Frank does come across with a healthy degree of skepticism (albeit still ill prepared when he’s nearly shot). Andy’s reaction is more mixed: he at first seems not to have benefited from his time with the Fireman at all, seeming wildly enthusiastic at Coop’s return (incidentally, his ridiculously gleeful grin to Lucy reminds me of the elderly couple in MD).. However, something then seems to occur to him. Despite his vision about Lucy, Andy oddly spends most of the sequence running around looking for Hawk....and when Hawk arrives he has nothing to contribute despite leading the investigation all season (indeed, he seems uncharacteristically confused when Frank first implies that the doppel isn’t Dale). In terms of Andy’s vision, him moving Lucy into place turns out to be more metaphorical than literal. All he seemingly does is to point at Lucy’s phone, presumably anticipating Dale’s call, and yell, “Very important!” So the sum outcome of Andy’s visit with the Fireman is to ensure that Lucy didn’t get up to tinkle and miss Dale’s call?

I’m also still not certain what the Lucy cell phone storyline is about. Lucy killing Mr. C is one of the only developments I genuinely love in the first half hour, though.

Bob’s ultimate fate is left ambiguous, as is right. For my money, this was just a brief defeat and he’s still around, but it doesn’t really matter since we now know Bob was just one of many “eggs” barfed up by Jowday.

Coop seems to be taking Laura to the portal near Jack Rabbit’s Palace when he tells her they’re going home (BTW, that moment made me tear up this time — Kyle’s delivery in conjunction with the “Laura Palmer Theme” is so poignant and perfect). Where does he expect the portal to take them? The White Lodge/Fireman’s lair? That’s where it takes Andy and Mr. C...but it seems Mr. C believed it was a gateway to Jowday (and we see that the Fireman rerouted him from the Palmer home). Was Cooper taking Laura to use as a weapon against Jowday? This fits with the Fireman’s “creation” of Laura in Part 8, as well as the “two birds” plan (saving Laura and killing Jowday?).

That opening exposition scene is the kind of shameless retcon I don’t love. Coop was apparently withholding a LOT of info from Harry & co. (and perhaps more troublingly, from the audience). Of course, that’s his prerogative and even his duty as a federal agent with high clearance, but...this is information I’ll probably try to ignore on rewatches of S1&2. It makes all of these characters’ arcs WAY too convoluted, especially Dale.

Reiterating my thoughts from another thread: the sheriff’s station sequence is really frustrating and perplexing. We finally get Dale back to the setting where he spent so much of the first two seasons, and he doesn’t even have interactions with most of the characters. I do believe the moment when he calls up to tell Harry to put the coffee on and gets the wrong Sheriff Truman is very important to whatever message L/F were trying to convey regarding the inability to recreate the past (the irony of Showtime’s chosen handle for the season is that the show was all about the fact that you CAN’T return). Whatever the intent was, that sequence just plays like a mess, though, up until the giant Coop-head shows up (although I do love Rodney’s “one for the grandkids” line reading).

We only see the Jumping Man twice this season, both times in conjunction with the staircase that leads up to the motel. What that means is anyone's guess. Keeping track of all the various mythological entities and their allegiances/agendas is a daunting task after this season.

I love that the first line we hear of "The World Spins" is the reference to Halley's Comet, which really drives home the passage of time and how far in the past that month in 1989 (for the characters) and year from 1990-91 (for viewers) are.

The evolution of the symbols: First we had tattoos: Garland’s (three triangles in a “fallout shelter” type configuration, very apropos in light of Part 8 — we know from TSHoTP that the “Nordics”/White Lodge denizens were trying to get humanity to abandon nukes) and Margaret’s (a mirrored mountain range, with two tall peaks on the sides and two smaller peaks in the middle). Then we have Coop’s napkin drawing, which allegedly reconfigures the two tattoos into one design...except it doesn’t, because he uses diamonds instead of triangles. (Further complicating things, TSHoTP seems to retcon Margaret’s tattoo to be the same as Garland’s, but the book also prominently features Coop’s napkin drawing on the cover, despite said drawing now resembling NEITHER of the tattoos!) Annie tells him the sketch looks like the Owl Cave symbol, and this would be true with a slight modification (if the two smaller “peaks” were moved slightly higher, above the corners of the diamond, Coop’s sketch could be matted into the Owl Cave symbol). Then we have the “Jowday” symbol, identical to the Owl Cave symbol except that the diamond is replaced by a blackened oval, almost as though someone simply drew over the diamond. Now, in this Part, we see Jeffries transform the Owl Cave symbol into two diamonds, similar to Coop’s misinterpretation of Briggs’s tattoo (but with only two diamonds instead of three), which then become circular, turning into an 8. Does this last change relate to the relationship between the diamond in the Owl Cave symbol and the oval in the Jowday symbol?
Last edited by Mr. Reindeer on Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:23 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:It’s really remarkable what a straight-down-the-middle split this Part is for me: a half hour that doesn’t work for me AT ALL, where this season’s worst tendencies take over and things completely derail, followed by an incredibly powerful, hypnotic, beautiful half hour (heralded by the arrival of the transparent superimposed Coop-head).

To me, Diane’s relationship to Cooper is possibly the richest, most intriguing addition to the show’s mythology in S3. As I’ve said elsewhere, and without wanting to impose too literal a meaning on it, there is definitely SOMETHING at play beyond Diane being a flesh-and-blood mortal human, especially given her relationship to the “We live inside a dream” Cooper-head. Note that the superimposed Dale head appears as soon as Coop recognizes Naido as Diane (and seems to turn away with a look of guilt), and the head disappears briefly twice before its final departure, both times relating to Diane. The first time, it vanishes when the faceless Naido-head in the Red Room cracks open, and returns as soon as the “real” Diane regains her own head/face. The second time, it disappears when Dale and Diane kiss, and reappears when they pull apart (but are notably still touching), after he asks if she remembers everything. The second instance possibly implies that contact with Diane makes Cooper whole, briefly uniting the two Coopers onscreen.

Note also that the superimposed head speaks its one line in the same deep, artificially altered, deliberate cadence Mr. C used in his Hannibal Lecter prison interviews.

Although nothing came of the Diane/“-andies” speculation, I think it’s too big a coincidence to ignore in light of Naido. The girls show up in their usual subservient roles, and Candie’s curtain call is a dreamy, “It’s a good thing we made so many sandwiches.” There’s a lot to dig into here, in the Diane and/or Gender threads.

I wonder what it is that Diane remembers. Part 18 seems to imply that she and Coop had a plan of their own, separate from Garland and Gordon. Part of me suspects that she actually remembers the events of Part 18, or some other version of them, if time is cyclical (or at least, not a straight line). I also wonder if this corresponds to tulpa-Diane in Part 16 saying that she remembers, after receiving Mr. C’s “:-) ALL” text (which, again, oddly comes right before she tries to kill Gordon...).

Speaking of time being cyclical, it’s sure interesting that Jeffries conjures up an “8” (or possibly a sideways infinity symbol) with a little pinball doing an endless unbroken figure-8, just before sending Coop into what some have speculated may be an infinite temporal loop (the implication that he loses Laura twice or perhaps many more times, the repetition of footage from Part 2, &c.). I also really like the “8” turning sideways while the pinball adapts instantly to its new course, as if moving from a three-dimensional universe to a two-dimensional one. (This also reminded me of Rust Cohle's "time is a flat circle" from True Detective.)

Jeffries seems to have taken on godlike status. Mike seems to be somewhat in awe of him, or at least intrigued and respectfully quiet. Garland is also doing alright for himself, chilling with the Fireman in what may or may not be the White Lodge.

Interesting that Gordon seems to have at least an inkling of Jeffries’s evolution. The show keeps it pretty ambiguous whether or not Gordon has spoken to Jeffries at all since FWWM — Coop apparently hasn’t, and Albert had at least one implied contact, when the man in Colombia was killed.

The key inside Chad’s heel is so Get Smart/Man from UNCLE. I love it.. It feels like Mark wearing his formative TV-viewing preferences on his sleeve. In a similar vein, we get the second Marx Bros. allusion of the season, with Jay Ferguson getting to deliver a great Chico-esque line (and Albert’s response is probably my favorite line of his this season).

Why does Andy leave the “drunk” in the cells when he brings everyone else up? The treatment of that character by the sheriff’s station crew is so strange. It’s almost like he doesn’t exist to anyone but Chad. Wonder what if anything this has to do with Audrey’s seemingly tenuous relationship with the season’s “reality,” and the fact that Billy, Tina &c. seemingly actually exist outside Audrey’s dreamspace.

There has been debate in other threads about the sheriff’s station crew’s reaction to Mr. C, given what they should know at this point. Frank does come across with a healthy degree of skepticism (albeit still ill prepared when he’s nearly shot). Andy’s reaction is more mixed: he at first seems not to have benefited from his time with the Fireman at all, seeming wildly enthusiastic at Coop’s return (incidentally, his ridiculously gleeful grin to Lucy reminds me of the elderly couple in MD).. However, something then seems to occur to him. Despite his vision about Lucy, Andy oddly spends most of the sequence running around looking for Hawk....and when Hawk arrives he has nothing to contribute despite leading the investigation all season (indeed, he seems uncharacteristically confused when Frank first implies that the doppel isn’t Dale). In terms of Andy’s vision, him moving Lucy into place turns out to be more metaphorical than literal. All he seemingly does is to point at Lucy’s phone, presumably anticipating Dale’s call, and yell, “Very important!” So the sum outcome of Andy’s visit with the Fireman is to ensure that Lucy didn’t get up to tinkle and miss Dale’s call?

I’m also still not certain what the Lucy cell phone storyline is about. Lucy killing Mr. C is one of the only developments I genuinely love in the first half hour, though.

Bob’s ultimate fate is left ambiguous, as is right. For my money, this was just a brief defeat and he’s still around, but it doesn’t really matter since we now know Bob was just one of many “eggs” barfed up by Jowday.

Coop seems to be taking Laura to the portal near Jack Rabbit’s Palace when he tells her they’re going home (BTW, that moment made me tear up this time — Kyle’s delivery in conjunction with the “Laura Palme Theme” is so poignant and perfect). Where does he expect the portal to take them? The White Lodge/Fireman’s lair? That’s where it takes Andy and Mr. C...but it seems Mr. C believed it was a gateway to Jowday (and we see that the Fireman rerouted him from the Palmer home). Was Cooper taking Laura to use as a weapon against Jowday? This fits with the Fireman’s “creation” of Laura in Part 8, as well as the “two birds” plan (saving Laura and killing Jowday?).

That opening exposition scene is the kind of shameless retcon I don’t love. Coop was apparently withholding a LOT of info from Harry & co. (and perhaps more troublingly, from the audience). Of course, that’s his prerogative and even his duty as a federal agent with high clearance, but...this is information I’ll probably try to ignore on rewatches of S1&2. It makes all of these characters’ arcs WAY too convoluted, especially Dale.

Reiterating my thoughts from another thread: the sheriff’s station sequence is really frustrating and perplexing. We finally get Dale back to the setting where he spent so much of the first two seasons, and he doesn’t even have interactions with most of the characters. I do believe the moment when he calls up to tell Harry to put the coffee on and gets the wrong Sheriff Truman is very important to whatever message L/F were trying to convey regarding the inability to recreate the past (the irony of Showtime’s chosen handle for the season is that the show was all about the fact that you CAN’T return). Whatever the intent was, that sequence just plays like a mess, though, up until the giant Coop-head shows up (although I do love Rodney’s “one for the grandkids” line reading).

We only see the Jumping Man twice this season, both times in conjunction with the staircase that leads up to the motel. What that means is anyone's guess. Keeping track of all the various mythological entities and their allegiances/agendas is a daunting task after this season.

I love that the first line we hear of "The World Spins" is the reference to Halley's Comet, which really drives home the passage of time and how far in the past that month in 1989 (for the characters) and year from 1990-91 (for viewers) are.

The evolution of the symbols: First we had tattoos: Garland’s (three triangles in a “fallout shelter” type configuration, very apropos in light of Part 8 — we know from TSHoTP that the “Nordics”/White Lodge denizens were trying to get humanity to abandon nukes) and Margaret’s (a mirrored mountain range, with two tall peaks on the sides and two smaller peaks in the middle). Then we have Coop’s napkin drawing, which allegedly reconfigures the two tattoos into one design...except it doesn’t, because he uses diamonds instead of triangles. (Further complicating things, TSHoTP seems to retcon Margaret’s tattoo to be the same as Garland’s, but the book also prominently features Coop’s napkin drawing on the cover, despite said drawing now resembling NEITHER of the tattoos!) Annie tells him the sketch looks like the Owl Cave symbol, and this would be true with a slight modification (if the two smaller “peaks” were moved slightly higher, above the corners of the diamond, Coop’s sketch could be matted into the Owl Cave symbol). Then we have the “Jowday” symbol, identical to the Owl Cave symbol except that the diamond is replaced by a blackened oval, almost as though someone simply drew over the diamond. Now, in this Part, we see Jeffries transform the Owl Cave symbol into two diamonds, similar to Coop’s misinterpretation of Briggs’s tattoo (but with only two diamonds instead of three), which then become circular, turning into an 8. Does this last change relate to the relationship between the diamond in the Owl Cave symbol and the oval in the Jowday symbol?


I really have to disagree with your appraisal of the first half of 17. The whole point was to defy expectations and have a 'twisted reunion'. When Mr. C greets Andy and Lucy, we finally get the reunion we're waiting for but with an unexpected twist: it's with the wrong Cooper. Aided by brilliant sound design, there is an underlying tone of dread that gradually builds, especially with the cuts between the Chad and Mr. C storylines coming to a head simultaneously.

As far as Hawk not being there, that was also there to frustrate our expectations.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:42 pm

mtwentz wrote:I really have to disagree with your appraisal of the first half of 17. The whole point was to defy expectations and have a 'twisted reunion'. When Mr. C greets Andy and Lucy, we finally get the reunion we're waiting for but with an unexpected twist: it's with the wrong Cooper. Aided by brilliant sound design, there is an underlying tone of dread that gradually builds, especially with the cuts between the Chad and Mr. C storylines coming to a head simultaneously.

As far as Hawk not being there, that was also there to frustrate our expectations.


I hear you. I did enjoy the scenes on that level on my first viewing. I think the green glove battle has tainted the preceding scenes for me, since I know what all the buildup is leading to.

I love Hawk's individual scenes throughout the season, and am thrilled that L/F gave him so much material, but I don't think his arc had much of a payoff. I wish he'd been given something of significance to do in the final two hours after all that buildup. But I guess I'm just being greedy, since we were blessed to get as much of him as we did.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Jasper » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:32 pm

Mr. Reindeer, I very much enjoyed your write-up of part 17.

I agree with mtwentz about the first part, to a degree. When it first aired I was practically, excuse me, pissing myself with fear. The presence of Mr. C in the sheriff's station among those good people was terrifying. I do agree about the green glove bit deflating things, even though I like the actor/character just fine. It's quite odd that Cooper and the Mitchum bros. make it all the way there, only to stand and watch. In any case, the weirdness that follows is quite something. The Coop head was exquisitely disorienting, and entire that sequence contains enough material to fuel years of bewildered discussion.

One thing that strikes me as odd is that Frank Truman remains nonchalantly seated at his desk during these events. I know that it's a wild understatement to say that he's not an excitable man, but you'd think that he'd get up and back away when the woodsmen arrive, or at least when the BOB orb emerges and the fight begins. WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO SHOCK FRANK TRUMAN? :lol:

Frank remaining seated was reminiscent of the way that Tammy and Albert remained seated after the shooting tulpa Diane and witnessing her disappearance. I know they've seen a lot of weird stuff, but at some point the adrenaline must kick in.

P.S. As for Hawk's arc, I got the feeling that it must have continued unseen by the audience. There are Margaret's words about watching for "that one. The one I told you about. The one under the moon on blue pine mountain." There's also her statement that "There's fire where you're going." Last but not least, there's the perplexing scene with Hawk at Glastonbury Grove.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Pinky » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:54 am

been curious for a while now so I finally got screenshots of this. Are the faces here just sfx of Nae Yuuki morphing into Laura Dern?

https://imgur.com/a/XxKsC
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Xavi » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:03 pm

Do the repeating boxing match on Sarah's TV and the Freddie BOB boxing match match? Is this a representation of Sarah experiencing one of her notorious visions, a coded premonition of two Coopers fighting for life and death?



BTW Did you know that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Jones_(boxer)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Henry_Cooper
Round 4-Round 5 interval
Angelo Dundee had escorted Ali to his corner at the end of Round 4. Dundee then waved to referee Tommy Little and showed Little Ali's right glove which had apparently split down a seam revealing horsehair stuffing which could have injured Cooper's eyes. Officials were requested to obtain a new pair of gloves for Ali, and the resulting confusion led to the interval between round 4 and round 5 to be extended by 20 seconds which gave Ali extra time to recover.


https://youtu.be/8hwn2mqNI1I

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