What Other Directors/Actors Think of Season 3

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LateReg
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Re: What Other Directors/Actors Think of Season 3

Postby LateReg » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:10 am

It is actually incredibly interesting how many expectations Rian Johnson delighted in subverting in The Last Jedi, and how many fans are seething because of it, and how he must have delighted watching Twin Peaks, seeing some connection between it and his upcoming work. In the Unified Field of things, Twin Peaks somehow influenced The Last Jedi. Very interesting.
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krishnanspace
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Re: What Other Directors/Actors Think of Season 3

Postby krishnanspace » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:22 am

John Cena is a Twin Peaks fan too
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Re: What Other Directors/Actors Think of Season 3

Postby laughingpinecone » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:56 pm

The whole tlj discourse is interesting, and to me it further proves that "subverting expectations", per se, is little more than an empty buzzword. Fandom talk is indeed very similar to TPTR fandom talk, yet I find myself on the opposite side of the fence.
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AgentEcho
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Re: What Other Directors/Actors Think of Season 3

Postby AgentEcho » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:02 pm

The fan backlash phenomenon we've seen so much of this year is interesting. Though I think it's worth noting that in the case of The Last Jedi, it wasn't made by the original creator and it was the case of an artist inheriting fan expectations rather than having created them himself. Still the overall phenomenon is the same, modern fans have a sense of entitlement about their individual expectations and they rage when they are not met and refuse to engage with the works on its own terms. Overall I am happier to see filmmakers intentionally subverting expectations rather than being beholden to them.
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AgentEcho
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Re: What Other Directors/Actors Think of Season 3

Postby AgentEcho » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:07 pm

laughingpinecone wrote:The whole tlj discourse is interesting, and to me it further proves that "subverting expectations", per se, is little more than an empty buzzword. Fandom talk is indeed very similar to TPTR fandom talk, yet I find myself on the opposite side of the fence.


I don't see how TPS3 rather obvious and gleeful subversion of expectations is an empty buzzword (if that term implies that the concept is more a creation of people writing about these works rather than being something that exists within the work itself). The fan backlash is rather obviously generated from expectations not being met, whether intentional or not, and it's a rather tangible thing that is not springing up from emptiness.
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Re: What Other Directors/Actors Think of Season 3

Postby laughingpinecone » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:51 am

AgentEcho wrote:
laughingpinecone wrote:The whole tlj discourse is interesting, and to me it further proves that "subverting expectations", per se, is little more than an empty buzzword. Fandom talk is indeed very similar to TPTR fandom talk, yet I find myself on the opposite side of the fence.


I don't see how TPS3 rather obvious and gleeful subversion of expectations is an empty buzzword (if that term implies that the concept is more a creation of people writing about these works rather than being something that exists within the work itself). The fan backlash is rather obviously generated from expectations not being met, whether intentional or not, and it's a rather tangible thing that is not springing up from emptiness.

I meant that it's a word everyone is using (to broach a tangible topic, yeah) but which, by itself, is too vague by a mile and a half!
It's which expectations you subvert, why, aligning with which themes, where your fanbase's at, and most importantly how you subvert... the discussion needs to be more detailed, just screeching in support or against the thing itself doesn't say much.
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Re: What Other Directors/Actors Think of Season 3

Postby eyeboogers » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:06 am

AgentEcho wrote:The fan backlash phenomenon we've seen so much of this year is interesting. Though I think it's worth noting that in the case of The Last Jedi, it wasn't made by the original creator and it was the case of an artist inheriting fan expectations rather than having created them himself. Still the overall phenomenon is the same, modern fans have a sense of entitlement about their individual expectations and they rage when they are not met and refuse to engage with the works on its own terms. Overall I am happier to see filmmakers intentionally subverting expectations rather than being beholden to them.


Good point, however we do have the luxury of the exact same thing happening when Lucas went back to the well himself for episode 1-3. Fans tried to claim ownership when what Lucas came up with didn't live up to what they'd expected or wanted. Personally I think those three films are unwatchable, but Lucas did succeed in creating something with as big an impact on how (blockbuster) films are made as he did with his original films. The omnipresent bad CGI, overlong runtimes, passing the tourch from one generation of actors to fresh faces, the neverending storyworlds with built in story-gaps that allow things such as spin-off films. This is all him. What the Marvel Cinematic Universe claims they've created is actually just them doing Lucas. Film would be better off without many of these things, but still he did push the medium into a new direction, and sometimes attempting that can even justify a film as horrid as "The Phantom Menace".
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Re: What Other Directors/Actors Think of Season 3

Postby AgentEcho » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:37 am

laughingpinecone wrote:
AgentEcho wrote:
laughingpinecone wrote:The whole tlj discourse is interesting, and to me it further proves that "subverting expectations", per se, is little more than an empty buzzword. Fandom talk is indeed very similar to TPTR fandom talk, yet I find myself on the opposite side of the fence.


I don't see how TPS3 rather obvious and gleeful subversion of expectations is an empty buzzword (if that term implies that the concept is more a creation of people writing about these works rather than being something that exists within the work itself). The fan backlash is rather obviously generated from expectations not being met, whether intentional or not, and it's a rather tangible thing that is not springing up from emptiness.

I meant that it's a word everyone is using (to broach a tangible topic, yeah) but which, by itself, is too vague by a mile and a half!
It's which expectations you subvert, why, aligning with which themes, where your fanbase's at, and most importantly how you subvert... the discussion needs to be more detailed, just screeching in support or against the thing itself doesn't say much.


I'd agree the discussion warrants detail, but I think there has been plenty of detailed discussion with regards to TPS3 at least. I also find the way fans are approaching these works, asserting that anything that doesn't meet their specific individual expectations is worthy of criticism, to be a fundamentally flawed approach (not just to criticism, but to life), so in that broad sense I'd say any form of rebuke or subversion is good.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: What Other Directors/Actors Think of Season 3

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:14 am

eyeboogers wrote:Good point, however we do have the luxury of the exact same thing happening when Lucas went back to the well himself for episode 1-3. Fans tried to claim ownership when what Lucas came up with didn't live up to what they'd expected or wanted.


That was a different situation, though. We’re discussing franchises deliberately subverting established elements of the franchise (such as Dale Cooper or Luke Skywalker’s characterizations up to that point) for artistic reasons — essentially baiting fans’ expectations in order to make an emotional or philosophical point. The Star Wars prequels weren’t really about subverting expectations — if anything, one of my biggest complaints is that the prequels delivered on expectations far too literally, spending 6+ hours telling a story we already knew the ending of (and could guess the basic story beats of based on conventional narrative expectation) with almost no imagination or innovation. A couple of Lucas’s choices were a bit unconventional and, while arguably misguided, at least interesting (the focus on socioeconomics and parliamentary process, midichlorians)...so in those narrow aspects of the prequels, I think you have a point. But by and large, the prequels were more focused on selling toys and telling a very predictable story than in doing anything innovative vis a vis expectations. Certainly, expectation was a big factor in fans’ reactions, but I don’t think it was a big consideration in the artistic vision of the films themselves.

Personally I think those three films are unwatchable, but Lucas did succeed in creating something with as big an impact on how (blockbuster) films are made as he did with his original films. The omnipresent bad CGI, overlong runtimes, passing the tourch from one generation of actors to fresh faces, the neverending storyworlds with built in story-gaps that allow things such as spin-off films. This is all him. What the Marvel Cinematic Universe claims they've created is actually just them doing Lucas. Film would be better off without many of these things, but still he did push the medium into a new direction, and sometimes attempting that can even justify a film as horrid as "The Phantom Menace".


Disagreeing with you, only in terms of your point about “never ending storyworlds” allowing spinoff films. I think what Marvel has done in terms of creating a mega-franchise made up of intertwining film series is unprecedented and fascinating, even if it often acts to the detriment of individual films. Lucas never had any intention of doing such a thing (other than a brief period in the early ‘80s when he toyed with the idea of Wookie and droid spinoff films); while stuff like the animated Clone Wars TV series and movie and the Holiday Special exist, he had pretty consistently said that the feature film Star Wars universe, in his mind, would only be made up of the numbered “Episodes” telling the core story. Film spinoffs have popped up sporadically throughout the history of the industry, but Marvel truly revolutionized the landscape in this regard, for better or worse.
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N. Needleman
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Re: What Other Directors/Actors Think of Season 3

Postby N. Needleman » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:29 am

laughingpinecone wrote:The whole tlj discourse is interesting, and to me it further proves that "subverting expectations", per se, is little more than an empty buzzword. Fandom talk is indeed very similar to TPTR fandom talk, yet I find myself on the opposite side of the fence.


That doesn't mean subversion is a buzzword. It means, if I'm understanding correctly, that you liked TP but you didn't like TLJ - which is your prerogative, but that doesn't mean the parallel does not hold.
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pinballmars
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Re: What Other Directors/Actors Think of Season 3

Postby pinballmars » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:57 pm

"Mr. Robot" creator Sam Esmail gushes about Twin Peaks S3:

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/sam-es ... 201910368/
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Re: What Other Directors/Actors Think of Season 3

Postby baxter » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:34 pm

Regarding Star Wars, I never saw any of them until I was 16 (and I am certainly old enough to have seen them as a kid), and I therefore missed the magic window of becoming very attached to them. By the time I saw them, they were ok, but I'd put Flight of the Navigator above any of them!

So that makes me have a somewhat different perspective on the prequels than other people. Return of the Jedi is clearly where the rot sets in for me, and watching again recently, The Phantom Menace is amazingly consistent in tone and execution (albeit the performances are much worse). I only saw The Force Awakens for the first time last week, and I found myself thinking that The Phantom Menace is a far braver film. That doesn't make it better, but it was a apparently a genuine attempt to go somewhere new, where TFA is a slightly redundant rehash that is nevertheless charming and entertaining.
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Re: What Other Directors/Actors Think of Season 3

Postby ^◊^ » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:25 am

In Steven Soderbergh's annual list of his day-to-day writing, film and television consumption for the past year, there was this little note.
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Metamorphia
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Re: What Other Directors/Actors Think of Season 3

Postby Metamorphia » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:46 pm


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