Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:19 pm

Laura tells James, “I think you want to take me home now” (one of my all-time favorite Sheryl Lee line readings). Shortly thereafter, Cooper tells Laura, “We’re going home.”

There is definitely outtake footage in here that has never appeared before of Jaques, Leo and Ronette from FWWM. More excitingly, there is also new never-before-seen footage of Jack Nance (the same setup as the “lonesome foghorn” shot, possibly from earlier in the same take). Presumably from the same source as the Pilot deleted scenes and outtakes on The Complete Mystery. It’s never been stated where that material came from, right? I wonder what else might be out there. (On the other hand, the shot of Pete fishing off the pier is clearly a body double shot during the 2015-16 production. I wonder who DKL entrusted with the task of doubling his friend?)

Any thoughts on the abstract shape Mr. C’s face turns into as the cage floats toward the screen?

Cooper asks Diane if she remembers everything. Jeffries says, “Cooper, remember.” Remember WHAT? Do we see Cooper remember whatever it is in Part 18?
LateReg
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:34 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Laura tells James, “I think you want to take me home now” (one of my all-time favorite Sheryl Lee line readings). Shortly thereafter, Cooper tells Laura, “We’re going home.”

There is definitely outtake footage in here that has never appeared before of Jaques, Leo and Ronette from FWWM. More excitingly, there is also new never-before-seen footage of Jack Nance (the same setup as the “lonesome foghorn” shot, possibly from earlier in the same take). Presumably from the same source as the Pilot deleted scenes and outtakes on The Complete Mystery. It’s never been stated where that material came from, right? I wonder what else might be out there. (On the other hand, the shot of Pete fishing off the pier is clearly a body double shot during the 2015-16 production. I wonder who DKL entrusted with the task of doubling his friend?)

Any thoughts on the abstract shape Mr. C’s face turns into as the cage floats toward the screen?

Cooper asks Diane if she remembers everything. Jeffries says, “Cooper, remember.” Remember WHAT? Do we see Cooper remember whatever it is in Part 18?


Figure it out, Reindeer, figure it out!

Also, I've always thought it was perhaps Lynch himself standing in for Nance on the pier. The other new footage you're speaking of with Nance...are you referring to him walking? And if so, are we sure that that's not somehow also a different actor?
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:54 pm

LateReg wrote:Also, I've always thought it was perhaps Lynch himself standing in for Nance on the pier.


That crossed my mind too. I think the individual had dark hair showing under the hat, but I may be misremembering.

other new footage you're speaking of with Nance...are you referring to him walking? And if so, are we sure that that's not somehow also a different actor?


Yep. His face is clearly visible, and the surroundings are an exact match to the shot in the pilot, down to the placement of the foliage. It’s too perfect to be even a very good recreation. It also has the slightly grainier quality of the original series footage, which stands out from the new stuff if you look closely. I think it may be the same take used in the pilot for the “lonesome foghorn” line, with this clip ending around the same point that scene begins.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Pinky » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:16 pm

the shape that Mr C's face turns into is the back of Mr C's head. It's his hair tucked back in the hair clasp.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:07 pm

Pinky wrote:the shape that Mr C's face turns into is the back of Mr C's head. It's his hair tucked back in the hair clasp.


Thanks! Either I’m super obtuse or it read really poorly onscreen, but you’re definitely right.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Pinky » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:34 pm

no, it was really hard to see until it clicked.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby bowisneski » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:22 pm

Holy crap! My mind is blown. I've been trying to figure out what that was since I first saw it, and had resigned myself to not understanding why Mr. C was turned in to some weird evil hedgehog. Thank you so much, Pinky.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby claaa7 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:54 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Cooper asks Diane if she remembers everything. Jeffries says, “Cooper, remember.” Remember WHAT? Do we see Cooper remember whatever it is in Part 18?


i'm thinking Jeffries' command of Cooper to "Remember" might pertain to the same thing as The Fireman's "Remember 430... Richard and Linda".

some people are speculating that Richard is yet another iteration of Cooper like Mister C and Dougie but i see it differently. I believe he is the Cooper we all know for the entire duration of Part 18.. where Diane fails after they cross (in thinking that she is now actually a totally different person called Linda) Cooper succeeds in remembering that he is still Cooper and not forgetting his mission of Two birds with one stone. had he fallen for the mind trap and totally dissasociated from his true self he would have been lost forever and the stone would've been left unturned.

the more i've seen and thought about the show my interpretation is more and more becoming that there's a straight path from beginning to end in Cooper's journey ín which he ultimately succeeds. this is much more in line with Lynch's other work in which wisdom is gained after a hard struggle which lets the main character overcome and transcend (FWWM, Eraserhead, Inland Empire, Wild at Heart). this is essentially Audrey's path as well in the new season as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:22 am

claaa7 wrote:the more i've seen and thought about the show my interpretation is more and more becoming that there's a straight path from beginning to end in Cooper's journey ín which he ultimately succeeds. this is much more in line with Lynch's other work in which wisdom is gained after a hard struggle which lets the main character overcome and transcend (FWWM, Eraserhead, Inland Empire, Wild at Heart). this is essentially Audrey's path as well in the new season as far as I'm concerned.


I agree that the “Cooper fails” interpretation seems to go against DKL’s typical preference for endings, but here’s my thing: DKL is all about visceral feelings and intuition. Much of his work is mysterious, but, when it comes to his endings, he doesn’t generally hide the ball regarding how you’re supposed to feel. You may have no clue what actually happens in the closing minutes of Eraserhead or INLAND EMPIRE, but the editing, sound design, performances and visuals leave little doubt that you are meant to feel euphoria (albeit perhaps mixed with some other residual emotions from all that has come before and the larger context of the work). I just don’t get that at all from the way he chose to end TP:TR. The emotional release that is present in the works you mention is totally absent here, and I see no reason to force this work into the same category. It seems to fit much more comfortably with the sadder, more subdued endings of Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive. Come to think of it, INLAND EMPIRE aside, DKL seems to have largely abandoned his trademark “transcendant” happy endings in his post-TP career (even The Straight Story’s ending, while sweet, is deliberately subdued).
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby claaa7 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:01 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
claaa7 wrote:the more i've seen and thought about the show my interpretation is more and more becoming that there's a straight path from beginning to end in Cooper's journey ín which he ultimately succeeds. this is much more in line with Lynch's other work in which wisdom is gained after a hard struggle which lets the main character overcome and transcend (FWWM, Eraserhead, Inland Empire, Wild at Heart). this is essentially Audrey's path as well in the new season as far as I'm concerned.


I agree that the “Cooper fails” interpretation seems to go against DKL’s typical preference for endings, but here’s my thing: DKL is all about visceral feelings and intuition. Much of his work is mysterious, but, when it comes to his endings, he doesn’t generally hide the ball regarding how you’re supposed to feel. You may have no clue what actually happens in the closing minutes of Eraserhead or INLAND EMPIRE, but the editing, sound design, performances and visuals leave little doubt that you are meant to feel euphoria (albeit perhaps mixed with some other residual emotions from all that has come before and the larger context of the work). I just don’t get that at all from the way he chose to end TP:TR. The emotional release that is present in the works you mention is totally absent here, and I see no reason to force this work into the same category. It seems to fit much more comfortably with the sadder, more subdued endings of Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive. Come to think of it, INLAND EMPIRE aside, DKL seems to have largely abandoned his trademark “transcendant” happy endings in his post-TP career (even The Straight Story’s ending, while sweet, is deliberately subdued).


hmm i don't know, for my first viewings i did not find the end of "Eraserhead" to be euphoric or one of positive closure for Henry. my first few viewings left me with a feeling of dread pretty similiar to the feeling of TP:TR's closure. i certainly see your point though, i don't think there's a happy road to enlightenment hiding behind the dour ending of "Lost Highway" for example. my feeling for the end of TP:TR remains though, and it is not only based on the actual ending but on the entire journey that is The Return and how all the pieces fits (or sometimes doesn't fit) together. to me it seems that Cooper manages to follow through every step of The Fireman's plan (which i take to reflect the same plan that Major Briggs, Cole and Cooper hatched being the double use of "two birds with one stone"). i find that the theory that Laura defeats the negative force that is Judy which is represented by the electricity going out works the best for me. it is certainly one of the most ambigious endings i've seen in any film though and like i said my first impression (just like with "Eraserhead") was a negative one for the characters.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Mon May 07, 2018 3:47 pm

Not least because of what happens after the lights go out. Whatever Laura whispered into Dale's ear has him devastated. This is the last image we're left with. Eagerly anticipating season 4.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:02 am

I think this had been mentioned before, but I can’t find it now...so maybe not?

In the “European ending” for the Pilot, after Bob says he wanted to sing with Mike, there is a distinctive hum/ring that is now is very familiar to TP fans from a different boiler room. Bob stops to listen to it, seemingly in awe, before singing his “catch you with my death bag” song.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Poiuyt » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:23 am

^ What? No way! I'm gonna have to rewatch that, not that I don't believe you. The new series already references so many minutae from the original.

Re: Part 17 - Watching with someone else for the first time, I was struck by how quickly the Freddie/Bob scene plays out. Cooper exclaims quite goofily, "You did it, Freddie!" and then it's just over. All intentional, I'm convinced, after Frost's "deus ex machina" statement regarding the scene, but still, the fact that Bob's "death" gets glossed over with no real emotional closure just doesn't sit well with me. It lends some credence, for me anyway, to the idea that Bob might not have actually died. That's for another post, though, since thinking about this has already distracted me from my day job. :)
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby krishnanspace » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:55 am

The way the scene plays out,I don't think BoB is destroyed.He just is defeated for now.
For I promise,I will kill again!
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby claaa7 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:05 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I think this had been mentioned before, but I can’t find it now...so maybe not?

In the “European ending” for the Pilot, after Bob says he wanted to sing with Mike, there is a distinctive hum/ring that is now is very familiar to TP fans from a different boiler room. Bob stops to listen to it, seemingly in awe, before singing his “catch you with my death bag” song.


Yes, this had me very intrigued on my rewatch after s3 ended.. whats even more interesting is that the sound informs BOB of Mikes presence. As soon as he listens up he gets excited, asking "Mike can you hear me?" We then see Mike appearing from out the shadows..

When TMFAP makes the whooping sound isnt it actually a vocalization of that very same sound?

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