General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

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IcedOver
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby IcedOver » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:39 pm

Jonah wrote:
IcedOver wrote:Then they included a shot from that scene in a commercial.


What commercial was this? Do you mean one of the teasers for the show itself?


Yes. It was a shot of Coop from the Palmer doorstep looking decidedly un-Dougie like which, because that scene kept not appearing week to week, made us know that original formula Coop or at least cut hair Mr. C was coming. Little did we know that was the last scene of the show.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Jonah » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:20 am

I might start a separate thread for this (or if someone can point me to a thread that might already be discussing this?), but for now I'll put this here:

Rewatching FWWM after having seen The Return. So Judy, Bob, and the Fireman's Creation all lived together as a family under one roof?

So, basically, if the origin stories are true, taking into account the original series, the movie, and now The Return, a long time ago - in the 1950's - an evil entity called Judy possessed Sarah Palmer. She married Leland Palmer who was possessed separately by another entity called Bob (via an older man who used to flick matches at him?).

Then the Fireman - aka The Giant - created Laura and sent her to earth to be born to Sarah (Judy) in order for her to defeat Judy and Bob? Is that right?

I'm just trying to understand the literal interpretation. Now that we have this whole mythic backstory. So putting aside the metaphors and themes of human abuse, grief, trauma, for a moment and looking at the epic backstory presented to us, it's two evil beings posing as or possessing a human couple and the entity that is or is posing as their child is meant to stop them? Is that right? And why did Bob possess Leland - because he knew he would marry Sarah? What does Bob want with Judy?
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby eyeboogers » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:12 am

Jonah wrote:What does Bob want with Judy?


I am too lazy to find the right passage in "The Secret History..." but as I recall it's something, something bringing about the end of the world.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Soolsma » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:09 am

Actually, it's in the Final Dossier

In The Final Dossier, we find out that Judy/Joudy is a demon in Sumerian mythology. According to the book, these demons appear in both female and male forms. The female form being Joudy, the male form being Ba'al, also known as Beelzebub in Christian and Islamic mythology. The book says that "if a male and a female ever united while on earth, the ancient texts claimed, their resulting "marriage" would create something far more perilous. As in: "the end of the world as we know it".
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby sneakydave » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:40 am

So how does this work with the frogmoth in Sarah in the 50's?

Do we assume that this was NOT 'Judy' and she wasn't actually inhabited by 'Judy' until after Laura's death?

Because if she had Judy within her all those years, then Bob and Judy have already 'united' on earth and produced Laura. This did not bring about the end of the world.

Unless of course, you say that the lights going out at the end of episode 18 was the end of a world, of sorts?
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby mtwentz » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:00 am

sneakydave wrote:So how does this work with the frogmoth in Sarah in the 50's?

Do we assume that this was NOT 'Judy' and she wasn't actually inhabited by 'Judy' until after Laura's death?

Because if she had Judy within her all those years, then Bob and Judy have already 'united' on earth and produced Laura. This did not bring about the end of the world.

Unless of course, you say that the lights going out at the end of episode 18 was the end of a world, of sorts?


My interpretation is that the Fireman frustrated Bob and Judy's efforts by sending the Laura orb. Thus, the offspring of Judy and Bob was meant to be born on Earth and die at Bob's hands in order to frustrate Judy's plan.

When Cooper 'saves' Laura, he actually frustrates the Fireman's plan, because Laura was born to die in a Christ-like sacrifice.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Soolsma » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:45 pm

I like to think of the Frogmoth as the jumping man (note the physical similarities), who as a talisman (called that by Lynch) can serve as a sort of vessel for Judy. Remember when Sarah was in the supermarket and she said ''men are coming''. I think after that the Woodsmen went to Sarah's house to perform some ritual to allow for Judy to be conveyed through her. They needed Judy there and then in Twin Peaks because of events about to unfold. Note how everything has changed about Sarah when Hawk visits her at her house; her expression etc. He hears a sound and asks Sarah if there is someone there, which could be the woodsmen.

Also note how the jumping man rushes down when Cooper is heading to change the past. He is rushing to tell Judy about the events unfolding.

Pure speculation of course, and definitely not my ''final'' take on things. But I sure like to look at it that way.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Pinky » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:00 pm

Soolsma wrote:I like to think of the Frogmoth as the jumping man (note the physical similarities), who as a talisman (called that by Lynch) can serve as a sort of vessel for Judy. Remember when Sarah was in the supermarket and she said ''men are coming''. I think after that the Woodsmen went to Sarah's house to perform some ritual to allow for Judy to be conveyed through her. They needed Judy there and then in Twin Peaks because of events about to unfold. Note how everything has changed about Sarah when Hawk visits her at her house; her expression etc. He hears a sound and asks Sarah if there is someone there, which could be the woodsmen.

Also note how the jumping man rushes down when Cooper is heading to change the past. He is rushing to tell Judy about the events unfolding.

Pure speculation of course, and definitely not my ''final'' take on things. But I sure like to look at it that way.



I love reading thought out takes of S3 that follow logically and are based on what we're shown and don't go out into the weeds too much. This feels pretty accurate to me. I've not read much like that about the C/Jeffries/Briggs storyline and I was wondering about your - and anyone else's, really - take on it. Like, what was actually going on between C and 'Jeffries' with the encrypted comms, Buenos Aires and the attic room, Briggs appearances to Bill Hastings, etc. Maybe we're given enough to intuit the rest but it doesn't feel like it to me, and it's hard to know if it's because there's something there we haven't picked up on or if it's because Lynch and Frost didn't pay all that much attention to the logistics of the plot in these places, because it wasn't deemed important enough to the story and broad strokes would suffice.

Was C ever communicating with the real Jeffries through the briefcase gear? Was the switch recent? If he was in contact regarding the search for Judy, how come he'd made so little progress in 25 years? The building of a criminal empire fits with C's lusting for power but unless it was a necessary step in funding the Manhattan box project, it feels like C's time would have been better spent knocking around Twin Peaks searching for Judy.

I know there are going to be holes in my attempt to find holes, but I can't help shake the sense that if you were somehow able to pull up Lynch or Frost and get them to explain how that whole arc works, they wouldn't have that much of an idea themselves. Which is fine, because maybe it wasn't seen as that important in their eyes in view of the whole thing. I loved it when the show finally got a chance to world-build, but none of that stuff really got the chance to lock in, for me, because not much of it made plot sense.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Soolsma » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:05 pm

I'm pretty sure it was Judy and not Jeffries on the other side of the phone. "I missed you in New York" > It was definitely Judy/experiment breaking out of the box in NY. "I will be with BOB again" > In TFD there are references to a marriage between Jowday (Judy) and Beelzebub (BOB). "You're going back in tonight" > Something Judy could possibly know. Not to mention that when DoppelCoop meets with Jeffries, Jeffries seems unable to recall the conversation on the phone.

There are also people on reddit who did some audio cleanup on the voice on the phone and it sounds a lot like Grace Zabriskie. Can't seem to find a link to it now though.

I'm pretty clueless on pretty much everything going on with Jeffries/Buenos Aires/collaboration with DoppelCoop.

I would like to add that in The Missing Pieces, Jeffries talks to the hotel clerk who refers to Judy as ''a young lady''. I regard this as another clue that tells us that Sarah is or was not possessed by Judy in the classical Leland/BOB sense. And that she must have appeared in another shape or form there, because it's unlikely that in 1989, Sarah would have been referred to as a young lady.
The only other earlier time that Judy was obviously being conveyed through Sarah was in the semi last episode from season 2. When Sarah tells Briggs in a deep voice: "I'm in the lodge with Dale Cooper". I believe it was possible there and then because it was that time when the lodge was open; when Jupiter and Saturn met. Other than that, a powerful connection would have to be present to allow for Judy's presence in our plane of existence, like for example the box in New York.
I do not understand her relation to Jeffries though.

As for Briggs, I believe his and Ruth's ritualistic sacrifice was necessary for the trade off to allow Dougie to be sucked in to the lodge instead of Doppelcoop. That's why Dougie's ring was in his stomach. Remember how golden/metal circles have been used for magic in other cases (Owl ring, Coop's ring, MIKE refers to his and BOB's relationship as a golden cirkle). Hasting was just at the wrong place and the wrong time in his search for ''the zone'' and was framed or even used for the killing.
Last edited by Soolsma on Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Pinky » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:37 pm

mtwentz wrote:
sneakydave wrote:So how does this work with the frogmoth in Sarah in the 50's?

Do we assume that this was NOT 'Judy' and she wasn't actually inhabited by 'Judy' until after Laura's death?

Because if she had Judy within her all those years, then Bob and Judy have already 'united' on earth and produced Laura. This did not bring about the end of the world.

Unless of course, you say that the lights going out at the end of episode 18 was the end of a world, of sorts?


My interpretation is that the Fireman frustrated Bob and Judy's efforts by sending the Laura orb. Thus, the offspring of Judy and Bob was meant to be born on Earth and die at Bob's hands in order to frustrate Judy's plan.

When Cooper 'saves' Laura, he actually frustrates the Fireman's plan, because Laura was born to die in a Christ-like sacrifice.



Is Cooper given the 430 etc clues as part of a mission to try and right what he wronged? Can we assume that more is said between Cooper and the Fireman than we are privy to? Coop and Diane seem to have knowledge of a plan; Diane thinks whatever it is is a bad idea, and Cooper is aware to some extent as to the potential nature of where they are going, or at least that things 'could be different'. Then there's the dark inevitability of the sex scene, showing that things did indeed change the instant they went through the portal at 430. Or do things change at the motel? It felt as if something important happened between Coop going in and coming out.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Pinky » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:58 pm

I mean between him walking into the motel office and coming out again, not the next morning at the motel.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby eyeboogers » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:19 am

Pinky wrote:My interpretation is that the Fireman frustrated Bob and Judy's efforts by sending the Laura orb. Thus, the offspring of Judy and Bob was meant to be born on Earth and die at Bob's hands in order to frustrate Judy's plan.

When Cooper 'saves' Laura, he actually frustrates the Fireman's plan, because Laura was born to die in a Christ-like sacrifice.



Is Cooper given the 430 etc clues as part of a mission to try and right what he wronged? Can we assume that more is said between Cooper and the Fireman than we are privy to? Coop and Diane seem to have knowledge of a plan; Diane thinks whatever it is is a bad idea, and Cooper is aware to some extent as to the potential nature of where they are going, or at least that things 'could be different'. Then there's the dark inevitability of the sex scene, showing that things did indeed change the instant they went through the portal at 430. Or do things change at the motel? It felt as if something important happened between Coop going in and coming out.[/quote]

We know from an interview with Kyle Maclachlan (and a few other sources) that Cooper was in a sense supposed to re-appear earlier in the script, and that it seems to have been in the form of a scene with Cooper and the fireman. As I recall, Maclachlan also indicated that it might have made the main plot a bit easier to digest (which is probably why they edited it out). About the timing of that sex scene, I think the biggest clue is the music. "My Prayer" appears twice, during the sex magicks scene and during the Gotta light sequence when the frogmoth takes residence in Sarah. So my best guess is that Linda and Richard open up the portal that allows the woodsman to appear and facilitate the frogmoth business.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:02 am

eyeboogers wrote:
We know from an interview with Kyle Maclachlan (and a few other sources) that Cooper was in a sense supposed to re-appear earlier in the script, and that it seems to have been in the form of a scene with Cooper and the fireman. As I recall, Maclachlan also indicated that it might have made the main plot a bit easier to digest (which is probably why they edited it out).


I definitely didn’t see that interview. Do you have a link?
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Soolsma » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:33 am

IIRC he just said there was originally some more Dale Cooper in there instead of just Dougie. And I think he meant some stuff among the lines of the ''he's lying'' remark.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Soolsma » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:50 am

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