Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:38 am

I think the “white squares” on the FBI monitors are the Dougie Jones file Headley just sent, coming in page by page.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby AXX°N N. » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:21 pm

boske wrote:I will need to rewatch this part for at least one thing in particular: there is a one brief shot of some machinery in a room at Fireman's place/palace. That looks interesting.

I don't know if I've said it on the boards anywhere, but I consider this the single most important shot in the entire season. Up until that moment, we've been exposed to the Fireman, Senorita Dido, their record players and their technology with the impression that they're platonic entities--he might stand for the Father, her the Mother, there is one couch, one screen, one machine for each purpose. As soon as you show an expansive hallway with what appears to be an endless array of the same device, there is suddenly a consumptive aspect at play--there is obsolescence involved, on some level, an industrial component, energy that, like in our realm, must not be depleted but maintained. It instantly parallels the fact that negative entitites we've been exposed to (BOB, LMFAP et al) have been reliant on the consumption of Garmonbozia.

Less clear to me, but still something I feel on an intuitive level, is dread involved at a sudden humanization of these devices. Perhaps it's the presence of Briggs' head floating like an object (the endpoint of stoicism?), or the fact that Mr. C is conveyed in a cage rather like a conveyer belt through the air. Perhaps it's the sudden realization that the shape of these devices reminds of Jeffries, who has been reduced (elevated?) into the form of vapor in a canister. Perhaps it's the sudden sense this is the same dynamic, somehow, as Garmonbozia, meaning there must be some human-derived dynamic to whatever these devices are used for. Perhaps it puts into stark relief the presence of the telephone poles, as conveyers of some kind in tandem to key areas of homicide.

If the Fireman is good, he has to be good not in the way of cliche but of Yin/Yang, as Lynch clearly ascribes to buddhist thought. If he's 'good', he has to be 'the good with a touch of the bad,' similar to like I've said elsewhere re. the fact he comes across to me as representing a platonic form of 'the leader who must make tough decisions for the sake of the overall good being maintained,' ie, creating the suffering of Laura Palmer for ulterior motives.

Without the shot of the machines, there is arguably far less of an angle for entry into the consideration of the Fireman, and the entire palace, as somewhat more sinister or based in necessity than we might assume.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:32 pm

Interesting. It seems almost like the Fireman is the keeper of these devices in some gigantic warehouse, perhaps loaning them out to other Lodge spirits/locations at his discretion? Where else do we see these devices and what do we see them do?

In Part 3, one is on top of the spaceship/steel box containing the Mansion Room (which Cooper initially enters, notably, through what looks like the exterior of the Fireman’s home). It electrocutes Naido, who seemingly sacrifices herself in order to switch the current so Copper can reenter the “real” world.

In Part 8, one beeps to alert the Fireman to the nuclear explosion. We see two more in the screening room which don’t seem to be used onscreen.

And of course, Jeffries seems to be inhabiting one (also seemingly in the Mansion Room, which apparently can be accessed from the Dutchman’s as well).

I wonder if Naido pulling the lever has any intentional link (even just thematically or as motif) to the slot machines in the casino environment where Cooper is soon going to land?
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:09 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I think the “white squares” on the FBI monitors are the Dougie Jones file Headley just sent, coming in page by page.

It did not look that way to me at for several reasons:

  • Those were plain squares, they did not assume any of the standard page sizes (e.g. Letter, Legal, A4, etc.);
  • They were blank, which may be actually as expected from a certain point of view :lol:
  • The collation order it totally weird: it goes top to bottom and then right to left, and no language that I know has such an order. While Semitic languages are right to left, they are not top to bottom, and similarly Far-East Asian traditional ones are top to bottom (e.g. Traditional Chinese), they do not flow right to left, not that I know to be honest;
I guess we are probably reading to much into this, but who has that kind of equipment in a hotel room anyway.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:38 pm

boske wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:I think the “white squares” on the FBI monitors are the Dougie Jones file Headley just sent, coming in page by page.

It did not look that way to me at for several reasons:

  • Those were plain squares, they did not assume any of the standard page sizes (e.g. Letter, Legal, A4, etc.);
  • They were blank, which may be actually as expected from a certain point of view :lol:
  • The collation order it totally weird: it goes top to bottom and then right to left, and no language that I know has such an order. While Semitic languages are right to left, they are not top to bottom, and similarly Far-East Asian traditional ones are top to bottom (e.g. Traditional Chinese), they do not flow right to left, not that I know to be honest;
I guess we are probably reading to much into this, but who has that kind of equipment in a hotel room anyway.


They’re definitely not blank. On the Blu Ray, it’s very clear that the pages have typing on them, although it’s impossible to read them.

Yeah, you’re right, the collation order is odd. But it seems pretty obvious to me what the intent was: these pages start showing up in rapid succession shortly after Headley tells Cole, “My team is sending everything to you as we speak.” Then when Albert and Tammy are incredulously reading about Dougie’s antics, they both look back and forth between Tammy’s Mac and the pages popping up on the monitors behind them.

And yeah, the mobile nerve center in that hotel room is hilarious to me. Very James Bond, or Man from U.N.C.L.E. (both of which were formative influences on Mark).
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:39 pm

AXX°N N. wrote:
boske wrote:I will need to rewatch this part for at least one thing in particular: there is a one brief shot of some machinery in a room at Fireman's place/palace. That looks interesting.

I don't know if I've said it on the boards anywhere, but I consider this the single most important shot in the entire season. Up until that moment, we've been exposed to the Fireman, Senorita Dido, their record players and their technology with the impression that they're platonic entities--he might stand for the Father, her the Mother, there is one couch, one screen, one machine for each purpose. As soon as you show an expansive hallway with what appears to be an endless array of the same device, there is suddenly a consumptive aspect at play--there is obsolescence involved, on some level, an industrial component, energy that, like in our realm, must not be depleted but maintained. It instantly parallels the fact that negative entitites we've been exposed to (BOB, LMFAP et al) have been reliant on the consumption of Garmonbozia.

Less clear to me, but still something I feel on an intuitive level, is dread involved at a sudden humanization of these devices. Perhaps it's the presence of Briggs' head floating like an object (the endpoint of stoicism?), or the fact that Mr. C is conveyed in a cage rather like a conveyer belt through the air. Perhaps it's the sudden realization that the shape of these devices reminds of Jeffries, who has been reduced (elevated?) into the form of vapor in a canister. Perhaps it's the sudden sense this is the same dynamic, somehow, as Garmonbozia, meaning there must be some human-derived dynamic to whatever these devices are used for. Perhaps it puts into stark relief the presence of the telephone poles, as conveyers of some kind in tandem to key areas of homicide.

If the Fireman is good, he has to be good not in the way of cliche but of Yin/Yang, as Lynch clearly ascribes to buddhist thought. If he's 'good', he has to be 'the good with a touch of the bad,' similar to like I've said elsewhere re. the fact he comes across to me as representing a platonic form of 'the leader who must make tough decisions for the sake of the overall good being maintained,' ie, creating the suffering of Laura Palmer for ulterior motives.

Without the shot of the machines, there is arguably far less of an angle for entry into the consideration of the Fireman, and the entire palace, as somewhat more sinister or based in necessity than we might assume.

That scene shows the futility of Cooper and Mr. C endeavours more than anything else. What has Mr. C achieved? Nothing. To me, he was clearly after the Fireman and was tossed aside by a slight move of a hand; he was never a danger to him. And what about Cooper? It simply looks like he was released from the lodge so that Gerard and LMFAP can get their garmonbozia, Cooper here is just some collateral damage. Did lodge entities genuinely care for him, or was it all just about Bob's garmonbozia? Both Cooper and Mr. C are simply out of their league, at least that seems to be the message that I am getting.

I mentioned this in the disappointed thread I think, but my reading of Ep. 29 was that the Giant was an embodiment of Jupiter. Why?
  • It was about a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn;
  • LMFAP is in charge of time and rings, and there is a Saturn lamp in the waiting room;
  • "One and the same" has the Giant and LMFAP together, a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn;
  • Jupiter is a gas giant;
  • It is slow as it paces across the sky (remember that aspect of Senior Droolcup);
  • Giant's wardrobe has all the dominant colors of Jupiter's disk;
  • And the most peculiar one: the bow tie! It is just like Jupiter's giant red spot; :-)
  • So if we start from this premise, then Dido is actually Juno;
I did not notice the hallway until today. It was my second real viewing, and the first viewing was at 2 am (for us European viewers), there is no way to be able to notice all those details that require real attention. :lol:

Regarding Fireman: to me, he simply looks to be beyond good and evil, the way we understand them, and that was the title of Ep. 29, if my memory serves me right. What happens in the lodge is way out of our league, that seems to be the message. Somehow that one brief shot reminded me of that giant human farm from the Matrix, but I will have to watch it again for sure.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:43 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:They’re definitely not blank. On the Blu Ray, it’s very clear that the pages have typing on them, although it’s impossible to read them.

Sorry, I did not see the typing at all, I was watching this on TV and the stream compression must have kicked in. I should be getting my DVDs shortly.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:24 am

Finished my weekly, Sunday rewatch, replicating the original airing.

I know this must have been semi-said before in discussions of Cole's info-dump at the very beginning of Part 17, but this time it really struck me that the plan that he was concealing from Albert for 25 years - which Lynch is hilariously unsure whether or not is going according to plan - is about Lynch's desire to continue the series 25 years later. I'm not saying he always intended to continue the series, but that it may be a play on the idea of the time-slippage and "official version," that at some point the true narrative as many will recall it due to Cooper's messing with time is that Lynch had always intended to film this return as far back as 1990. The thought of playing with the central (theorized) narrative in such a meta-way is very amusing.

Along the same meta-lines, I was wondering if it could be - or perhaps was mentioned in Twin Perfect's video - that the drunk in the jail cell is intended on one level to reveal how annoying mimicry (in art) is, for example, how annoying all the less original Twin Peaks copycats are. This fits with the whole diner discussion in Part 13 of franchising and diluting the formula.

I'm still not sure about Green Glove overall, but I've come to see how folks like Needleman believe that for Lynch Freddie is a sincere creation, even as meant as deux ex machina by Frost (and possibly Lynch as well). I also must say that I like the green glove fight more and more every time I see it, as both a visceral scene and as a formal experiment.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:37 am

boske wrote:I mentioned this in the disappointed thread I think, but my reading of Ep. 29 was that the Giant was an embodiment of Jupiter. Why?
  • It was about a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn;
  • LMFAP is in charge of time and rings, and there is a Saturn lamp in the waiting room;
  • "One and the same" has the Giant and LMFAP together, a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn;
  • Jupiter is a gas giant;
  • It is slow as it paces across the sky (remember that aspect of Senior Droolcup);
  • Giant's wardrobe has all the dominant colors of Jupiter's disk;
  • And the most peculiar one: the bow tie! It is just like Jupiter's giant red spot; :-)
  • So if we start from this premise, then Dido is actually Juno;
I did not notice the hallway until today. It was my second real viewing, and the first viewing was at 2 am (for us European viewers), there is no way to be able to notice all those details that require real attention. :lol:


Great idea, you are the first one I've seen mention this, and I am thoroughly convinced that this is the case.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:29 pm

eyeboogers wrote:
boske wrote:I mentioned this in the disappointed thread I think, but my reading of Ep. 29 was that the Giant was an embodiment of Jupiter. Why?
  • It was about a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn;
  • LMFAP is in charge of time and rings, and there is a Saturn lamp in the waiting room;
  • "One and the same" has the Giant and LMFAP together, a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn;
  • Jupiter is a gas giant;
  • It is slow as it paces across the sky (remember that aspect of Senior Droolcup);
  • Giant's wardrobe has all the dominant colors of Jupiter's disk;
  • And the most peculiar one: the bow tie! It is just like Jupiter's giant red spot; :-)
  • So if we start from this premise, then Dido is actually Juno;
I did not notice the hallway until today. It was my second real viewing, and the first viewing was at 2 am (for us European viewers), there is no way to be able to notice all those details that require real attention. :lol:


Great idea, you are the first one I've seen mention this, and I am thoroughly convinced that this is the case.

Thank you. I had noticed that originally a while back, and I just remembered that when I mentioned that originally elsewhere, it was also the time when I noticed some themes that had appeared in David Bowie's "Let's Dance" video, that were seemingly paralleled in TP later on, so I may as well mention them here, so they do not get forgotten.

For example:
  • The opening shot has a truck passing by a corner of an Aussie diner; an electrical pole is prominently featured; I am pretty sure we have an exact such scene (the distance from the diner and the camera angle) early on in the original TP, except that the truck there is transporting logs instead of cattle;
  • A scene featuring a radio set, played backwards! Now that is some literal music in the air; ;-)
  • The bar that Bowie plays in has a checkered pattern (red and black though), and there is a fan in the ceiling as well;
  • Bowie is dressed in white, just like Phillip Jeffries was in Buenos Aires, except that here Bowie has white shoes;
  • Red shoes though appear shortly thereafter followed by a nuclear blast in the distance;
  • Let's Dance vs. Let's Rock, it is an obvious parallel;
  • The verse "because my love for you would break my heart in two". Remember Laura's heart pendant here;
  • There is more in there, the snake skin pattern in the gallery, left hand flashing and then settling as sun is setting, and probably a few more;
Another video that may have served as inspiration or perhaps came from the same pool of ideas is Tom Petty's "Running Down a Dream". What does it have:
  • Red curtains behind Tom;
  • A dwarf with no, or perhaps doppelgänger-like light pupils, descending a ladder in a dream, imploring Tom to wake up;
  • It is shot in black and white, just like those Fireman scenes in S3;
  • Party balloons;
  • A phonograph that trips Tom;
  • More and more stairs;
  • Number 8 ball;
  • Natives and then some giant rabbits;
  • Tom getting scared and losing his shoes;
  • Fireworks and explosions in the sky;
  • The dwarf falling into open space just like Naido;
  • Edit: and a few more: Manhattan with some moth-like flying creatures;
  • Tom and the dwarf falling through cracks in the ground;

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