"Do your palms ever itch?" All things Audrey

[entropy]

I'm definitely not saying there is some seedy conspiracy, but I want to believe there is more.

I was watching season 1 of the X-Files tonight, so your "I want to believe" has inspired me. I've far from an authority on this and you'd get a better answer from someone like Audrey Horne, but I've never really doubted that there was more than meets the eye. Even before some of the more recent interviews with Engels and Fenn where they are much more blunt about LFB's role in this fiasco, "Secrets from Another Place" made it quite apparent that there was something more than just "Audrey is in high school." Frost's "for reasons I won't go into" and Engel's "intramurals wouldn't let that happen," paired right next to Kyle's party line explanation, speak volumes. I think their delivery says a lot too. Engels is laughing the entire time, so I can only imagine what kind of drama he was privy to backstage. If it's really something as simple as "Kyle thought the idea of Cooper being involved with a high school student was inappropriate," then why all of the cryptic non-answers? The mere fact that Cooper and Audrey share one scene in the last 10 or so episodes (and the one at the police station doesn't really count) suggests to me something ugly happened. I also feel like there is something in Kyle's body language that hints he's not being completely honest about the situation, but that's probably just my confirmation bias looking for whatever smoking gun I can find.

It never gets any less frustrating for me to watch, though.

[Colonel Cooper]

Just re-watched that documentary - and it's so clear that Frost and Engels have one hell of a story to tell - which someday they're bound to do.

I find ironic Kyle's remark of seeing endless guest star credits appear onscreen - we wouldn't have needed Zane and Graham, for a start, if he'd done what Ray Wise did - namely just knuckle down and act the hell out the words given to you, no matter what the storyline meant to your character. So he thought it was inappropriate for his character did he? And yet in real life he was seeing LFB, all of 20 years old at the time. What a waste.

Glad to see I've re-invigorated this thread, and look forward to Audrey's next entry.

[entropy]

Not to mention that Ray Wise got stuck with "not only did you rape and murder your own daughter, but we're killing you off." That has to be a bit tougher to stomach than "we're romantically pairing you with the 2nd most popular character on the show with whom you've been narratively connected for pretty much the whole series and have incredible chemistry but is technically still in high school even though no one cares or even remembers since we haven't actually shown anyone in school since the second episode." And it would have been a whole lot easier to tweak the story to keep Leland alive in some capacity. Kudos to Ray Wise.

As for the actual story, I was always looking forward to (and honestly expecting) the moment in the show where Audrey calls Coop "Dale." It seemed to be a natural progression of their relationship; since Coop was the only person to take the time and see past the bad girl facade to know the real Audrey, she in turn would be the one to know Dale - the man behind the facade of the unflappable Agent Cooper. I think everyone else in the show addresses him as some variation on Cooper, except for Windom Earle and Annie (but it's not really Annie, it's Caroline). Still, from that perspective, they're the only two people with whom Cooper was intimately connected and would know and understand "Dale." I don't know what the appropriate moment would have been for them to do this, but assumed it would have some gravity. Possibly when Audrey gets kidnapped to the Black Lodge, or during their final goodbye at the close of the series. It would be like a consummation of the emotional connection that would have continued to build over the course of the show. Just one of many disappointments I felt from watching their arc disintegrate.

Very much looking forward to Audrey Horne's write-ups (no pressure!).

[Audrey Horne]

ahhh, that's great.

there were a few of us a couple of years ago that tinkered with the series reimagining the episodes if they went according to the plan. And I believe it did end with Audrey calling Cooper "Dale" when she is abducted to the Black Lodge. I think we talked about those same points, and I completely agree.

started rereading some of these ancient posts re: Audrey. I think I had an outline for the 2.05 writeup. I'll start on it tonight.

It's funny when I started this, I thought it would maybe start threads for all the characters.

[blair]

I'm definitely not saying there is some seedy conspiracy, but I want to believe there is more.

I was watching season 1 of the X-Files tonight, so your "I want to believe" has inspired me. I've far from an authority on this and you'd get a better answer from someone like Audrey Horne, but I've never really doubted that there was more than meets the eye. Even before some of the more recent interviews with Engels and Fenn where they are much more blunt about LFB's role in this fiasco

,

Sherylin Fenn have never accused LFB to have changed the script, she was simply not her friend (easily to understand now that we know that Kyle have flirted with her according her blog)...she have the same version of the story that Kyle (according her interview during the 90's)...Engels seem to indicate that it was LFB fault, but we don't know if he have repeated some rumors or he have seen something himself (he have also lot of difficulty to remember correctly lot of details, he have been completly wrong about the age of Audrey and the performance of Michael Anderson for examples).

"Secrets from Another Place" made it quite apparent that there was something more than just "Audrey is in high school." Frost's "for reasons I won't go into" and Engel's "intramurals wouldn't let that happen," paired right next to Kyle's party line explanation, speak volumes. I think their delivery says a lot too. Engels is laughing the entire time, so I can only imagine what kind of drama he was privy to backstage.

The problem it's we don't know if there are something important behind these words, or we simply speculate about that...

If it's really something as simple as "Kyle thought the idea of Cooper being involved with a high school student was inappropriate," then why all of the cryptic non-answers? The mere fact that Cooper and Audrey share one scene in the last 10 or so episodes (and the one at the police station doesn't really count) suggests to me something ugly happened. I also feel like there is something in Kyle's body language that hints he's not being completely honest about the situation, but that's probably just my confirmation bias looking for whatever smoking gun I can find.

He is not the one to have this version of the story, it's the official, maybe there are more behind that, but probably like lot of others decisions (for the better or the worst)...there are also Lynch and Fenn who have said the same reason that him about the end of the romance...so I have doubt that he have lied (it's pretty hard to say that about him without a proof) because Fenn have absolutely no reason to give the same reason except of course if it's true.

About the various comparaison, well Ray Wise don't play the same role than him, so the comparaison don't work, the Cooper character is perfect, to make him to have a sexual relationship with an high school girl is really too much...I understand perfectly the Kyle choice about his characters, and for his relation with a younger LFB, well I don't think he see himself like the equal of Cooper or see himself like someones perfect...so his decision have nothing to do with his own moral but more about what is good for his character.

[entropy]

blair, I agree with you that is all speculation, and my intention wasn't to present any of this as fact. All we have is a bunch of "read between the lines" comments that are totally subject to the person interpreting them and get colored with our own biases. Also, I have to imagine that most of the Audrey/Coop fans are in agreement with the idea that a full-on "sexual" relationship between Cooper and Audrey wouldn't have worked either. I certainly never wanted that. It would destroy the magical tension. As long as the "romance" was never physical and they were just out of each other's reach, now that could have worked nicely. The reason I speculate on the subject is because it's just so hard to believe that if Kyle objected to the arc for character reasons (which is fine and although I may not agree I can understand, especially if it did involve sappy soap opera elements and actually consummating the relationship), the writers would completely scrap everything they had been building previously and never have the characters interact again. I just always wanted the reason for the completely botched handling of the arc to be something more than "well, the writers just had a complete brain fart and did the absolute worst thing they could in terms of story."

I do disagree on the idea that Leland and Cooper are completely different characters w.r.t. Cooper being "perfect." Obviously, Leland's duality is a much more pronounced distinction between good and pure evil. But I can't imagine Lynch would spend so much time and effort reinforcing his leitmotif of duality and not have it apply to the most important character in the show. Agent Cooper may be the best lawman around, but Dale's weakness was in matters of the heart. His problems arise because the two start overlapping.

[Audrey Horne]

blair, I think you're misunderstanding Fenn's comment that you're citing. If this is the one you're thinking of from her blog:

There are so many more memories....snow on the ground.....much times spent with James......avoiding parties and Kyle a bit on the make.....I even had an emergency wisdom teeth removal during the filming. But that is all for now.

I think she meant that Kyle was just being a young guy and flirty with the girls while shooting a pilot for a show they never knew would be picked up. I don't think it was anything serious. At this stage she didn't even know she would be working with him. It wasn't until months later when she got the script for the series, she surprisingly found out that she was going to have scenes with Cooper. (She was led to believe if anything developed it would be between Cooper and Josie.)

You're right though. Everything is conjecture. Last year, Engels did state it came down to Boyle but did not ellaborate. In a Wrapped in Plastic interview Heather Graham didn't know why the C&A plot was dropped but said she heard it had something to do with Boyle not wanting MacLachlan to film with Fenn (again though, conjecture).

So officially, you're right. You can't libel Boyle, and it becomes a bit of a witch hunt.


And in other news, I started drafting the next entry. I'll have it up after Thanksgiving. It was fun to get back into this.

[blair]

blair, I think you're misunderstanding Fenn's comment that you're citing. If this is the one you're thinking of from her blog:

There are so many more memories....snow on the ground.....much times spent with James......avoiding parties and Kyle a bit on the make.....I even had an emergency wisdom teeth removal during the filming. But that is all for now.

I think she meant that Kyle was just being a young guy and flirty with the girls while shooting a pilot for a show they never knew would be picked up. I don't think it was anything serious. At this stage she didn't even know she would be working with him. It wasn't until months later when she got the script for the series, she surprisingly found out that she was going to have scenes with Cooper. (She was led to believe if anything developed it would be between Cooper and Josie.)

I don't have said that there were something serious between them (it's still a possibility)...but I don't think Fenn comment is so innocent, I'm pretty sure he was not the one to have flirted with her during twin peaks...she don't seem to talk about the others girls too, but just about her, if she have said "Kyle try to seduce every young beautiful women"...I could understand, but it was imo a way to talk about him without to say to much , regardless their relationship, I pretty sure that LFB was not too happy to see his boyfriend play with others girls, Fenn was seen like probably the most beautiful woman in this show...and we have maybe something more about the tension between these two women.

There are also the weird comment of Lynch when Fenn have complained about the end of the Cooper/Audrey romance, he have asked directly to her if she was fallen in love with Kyle (what she have denied)...I have always found curious the kind of question from Lynch, it's very weird to say something like that to a young actress who complain about a professional situation...except of course if there were something more, but hey, I don't like to speculate... because in general we read more about their words that what there have been in the reality.

You're right though. Everything is conjecture. Last year, Engels did state it came down to Boyle but did not ellaborate. In a Wrapped in Plastic interview Heather Graham didn't know why the C&A plot was dropped but said she heard it had something to do with Boyle not wanting MacLachlan to film with Fenn (again though, conjecture).

So officially, you're right. You can't libel Boyle, and it becomes a bit of a witch hunt.


And in other news, I started drafting the next entry. I'll have it up after Thanksgiving. It was fun to get back into this.

Yes, it's my problem Boyle take everything about this decision, maybe she have played a role about that (probably minor), but I think Fenn, Kyle and Lynch are honest about their comments, specially Fenn who has absolutely no reason to say the official reason... we can easily to be lost about various speculations, because I think we should clearly be aware, that we know near nothing about the behind the scene stuff ....there are maybe various reason behind the end of the romance, maybe it's about something that we don't know (and it's true for the others decision about the show)...it's for that I prefer to keep just the official reason.

[blair]

blair, I agree with you that is all speculation, and my intention wasn't to present any of this as fact. All we have is a bunch of "read between the lines" comments that are totally subject to the person interpreting them and get colored with our own biases. Also, I have to imagine that most of the Audrey/Coop fans are in agreement with the idea that a full-on "sexual" relationship between Cooper and Audrey wouldn't have worked either. I certainly never wanted that. It would destroy the magical tension. As long as the "romance" was never physical and they were just out of each other's reach, now that could have worked nicely.

According Engels, there should have been a physical relationship between Audrey and Cooper, so it would have been more that just a platonic romance between them.

The reason I speculate on the subject is because it's just so hard to believe that if Kyle objected to the arc for character reasons (which is fine and although I may not agree I can understand, especially if it did involve sappy soap opera elements and actually consummating the relationship), the writers would completely scrap everything they had been building previously and never have the characters interact again. I just always wanted the reason for the completely botched handling of the arc to be something more than "well, the writers just had a complete brain fart and did the absolute worst thing they could in terms of story."

First, we don't know when Kyle have taken this decision, I think most of the fans see that like the reason behind the second problem...the main problem of the second season, it's ABC who have forced Lynch to conclude the Laura Palmer story...without that, I'm pretty sure that the TV show would have continued, now Kyle decision was, imo, probably done very early in the first season, why ? Simply because the famous bed scene (the 4th episode), if the commentary in DVD are chronological, Kyle decision have been done very early in the first season , so his decision have maybe not a direct influence to the second season problem...for the bed scene, for me was the end of the potential romance between them and they begin to be friends, it would have been weird to see his character change his mind and accept to be Audrey lover..., after that they have continued to link the two characters, but I don't think it would have been judicious to make Audrey to be captured again and again.

There are also the Engels comment about how the romance should have been the main story with the end of Laura Palmer story...I have some difficulty to understand his point, Dale should have contradicted himself and have a sexual relationship with Audrey ?...so Twin Peaks should have been transformed in a romantic TV show during the second season ? I think Engel try to find a way to explain the authors problems to write a story and try to say that it was Kyle fault, but honestly we don't know if they would have done a good works in these relationship, maybe that wouldn't have change the second season problem, ...

I don't think the second season was mediocre, it was still very good imo, way better that 99% of the TV show who have continued despite worst problems (x-files for example), I think most peoples want someone to be guilty for to explain the end of the TV show, if someone should be guilty, it's ABC for to have forced to reveal the killer, the date change who was apparently apocalyptic, and the Irak War who have hugely influenced the Channel decision (for what I have read).

I do disagree on the idea that Leland and Cooper are completely different characters w.r.t. Cooper being "perfect." Obviously, Leland's duality is a much more pronounced distinction between good and pure evil. But I can't imagine Lynch would spend so much time and effort reinforcing his leitmotif of duality and not have it apply to the most important character in the show. Agent Cooper may be the best lawman around, but Dale's weakness was in matters of the heart. His problems arise because the two start overlapping.

Well, Dale Cooper was not possessed by Bob, Ray have known for advance that he will play a fragile character...in the other end, Dale Cooper seem to be "perfect" in superficial sense, he seem to be a white knight, of course he have his own weakness, that make the character so alive...but to be in sexual relationship with an high school girl...it's too much for his character imo...I would have been lot of difficulty to accept that, it's for that I understand Kyle decision, but a part of myself would have liked to see such ambiguous relationship in a tv show.

[tellharryididn'tcry]

audrey is my friends favorite,big time. so sophisticated and amazing. she is in my top five. laura is my other friends favorite. i'm insane for shelly. i love trailer trash. cooper's not bad either!

[Colonel Cooper]

Lots of speculating going on, I see, but then that's all we can do isn't it

On youtube, one user has posted all of the Cooper/Audrey scenes linked together, starting from their 'freshly squeezed' meeting up until the kiss in front of Denise. The latter happened in episode 12 of season - so in the final 10 episodes, they had NOT ONE significant scene together. Argubly the two most popular characters on the show, inextricably linked storywise for a season and a half in an arc that was hugely popular with fans - and it gets dropped, totally and utterly, it's like they have no idea of the other's existence for the rest of the show.

That strikes me as being, not just a 'didn't think it quite appropriate for his character' reason that Kyle mentions - but a complete and irreconcilable breakdown of off-screen relations between actors and producers. In the documentary Frost's 'reasons that I don't want to go into' and Engels' 'I think that was not going to happen for uh inter-personal...(laughs)...the uh intermurals of the show...that wasn't going to happen' aren't so significant as Fenn's quote 'I was not interested in Kyle, as a man, but Audrey loved him.' Somebody, somewhere along the line, and I'm pointing a finger at you Lara Flynn Boyle, became unable to distinguish between on-screen reletionships and off-screen relationships, whether through professional jealousy or sheer immaturity (she was only 20 at the time), who knows? Why Kyle, a seasoned actor in comparison, didn't sit her down and explain the do's and don'ts of acting to her, I'll never understand - or forgive him for.

There's another quote, somewhere, of Lynch asking Fenn if she was in love with Kyle - and Fenn responding 'No, but Audrey is in love with Cooper.' That just reinforces my view that on and off-screen relationships became fatally confused, and it caused the death of Audrey as a character.

Just my opinion, of course.

Just seen the next episode, and looking forward to see what Audrey Horne (the forum member not the character!) have to say about it. I'm in the U.K. - therefore I have no idea what Thanksgiving is, or when

[blair]

Lots of speculating going on, I see, but then that's all we can do isn't it

On youtube, one user has posted all of the Cooper/Audrey scenes linked together, starting from their 'freshly squeezed' meeting up until the kiss in front of Denise. The latter happened in episode 12 of season - so in the final 10 episodes, they had NOT ONE significant scene together. Argubly the two most popular characters on the show, inextricably linked storywise for a season and a half in an arc that was hugely popular with fans - and it gets dropped, totally and utterly, it's like they have no idea of the other's existence for the rest of the show.

Maybe because have already known that they will built others relationship with news characters and they don't need to concentrate about them anymore...it's not necessary a conspiracy or behind the scene drama behind all their decisions.

That strikes me as being, not just a 'didn't think it quite appropriate for his character' reason that Kyle mentions - but a complete and irreconcilable breakdown of off-screen relations between actors and producers. In the documentary Frost's 'reasons that I don't want to go into' and Engels' 'I think that was not going to happen for uh inter-personal...(laughs)...the uh intermurals of the show...

Why not, but again we don't know if they have seen themselves something, or repeat a rumor among the crews (again, Engels have said several mistakes about some Twin Peaks fact), or talk about another story that we don't know...Fenn have said the same reason that Kyle about the end of the Cooper/Audrey romance...why she should have hidden something like that...except of course there are a more complex stories behind that...but for the moment, according Fenn, Kyle and Lynch, the main problem was the young age of Audrey.

I think to call Kyle a "liar" is very harsh, maybe it's just Engels who have just repeated a rumor...maybe Engels lie and repeat a old rumor for to protect himself for the second season so-called problem...or maybe both have a different vision about that, but I trust more Kyle and Fenn simply because both of them have been the first and directly involved in this decision (unlike the other crews members).

that wasn't going to happen' aren't so significant as Fenn's quote 'I was not interested in Kyle, as a man, but Audrey loved him.' Somebody, somewhere along the line, and I'm pointing a finger at you Lara Flynn Boyle, became unable to distinguish between on-screen reletionships and off-screen relationships, whether through professional jealousy or sheer immaturity (she was only 20 at the time), who knows? Why Kyle, a seasoned actor in comparison, didn't sit her down and explain the do's and don'ts of acting to her, I'll never understand - or forgive him for.

There are no real proof that she have played a role in the script change...LFB was very aware the difference on and off screen relationship, you can see her blog with an interview from the 90's about Twin peaks:

http://laraflynnboyle.blogspot.com/sear ... results=20

"Yeah, right," she said. "It's very funny because sometimes I'll have, like, this huge kissing scene with James and, like, Kyle'll be sitting in the trailer like this, you know?" she said, impersonating a man in turmoil."

"He doesn't understand that you're just acting?"

"Oh, we do," she said. "I understand that, he understands that, but, still, I don't like somebody else touching my boyfriend and he doesn't like somebody...."

There's another quote, somewhere, of Lynch asking Fenn if she was in love with Kyle - and Fenn responding 'No, but Audrey is in love with Cooper.' That just reinforces my view that on and off-screen relationships became fatally confused, and it caused the death of Audrey as a character.

Just my opinion, of course.

Maybe there are more, maybe LFB have seen something between Kyle and Fenn (she avoid Kyle flirt according Fenn blog), maybe he have a sexual relationship with the two actresses...maybe Lynch have seen something himself, it's for that he have asked if Fenn have fallen in love with Kyle...the problem when we begin to speculate, we can see lot of things about the words from the crew...again I take the official reasons, specially because it's the reason that the main actors (Kyle, Fenn, Lynch) of the show have given, an artistic problem about the difference ages in this romance...the reason is imo very logical so I don't have to suspect another reason, and imo, it's a good decision he have taken, regardless the fact that they has a good chimestry between Audrey and Cooper, it would have been really weird and disastrous for this character to have sexual relationship with an high school girl.

[Audrey Horne]

wow, lots of activity in this ancient thread. fun!

First, we don't know when Kyle have taken this decision, I think most of the fans see that like the reason behind the second problem...the main problem of the second season, it's ABC who have forced Lynch to conclude the Laura Palmer story...without that, I'm pretty sure that the TV show would have continued, now Kyle decision was, imo, probably done very early in the first season, why ? Simply because the famous bed scene (the 4th episode), if the commentary in DVD are chronological, Kyle decision have been done very early in the first season , so his decision have maybe not a direct influence to the second season problem...for the bed scene, for me was the end of the potential romance between them and they begin to be friends, it would have been weird to see his character change his mind and accept to be Audrey lover..., after that they have continued to link the two characters, but I don't think it would have been judicious to make Audrey to be captured again and again.

blair, you've brought this up before, and I don't think Kyle's protesting could take place in the first season. If it was, then it doesn't make sense the writers would have the rug pulled out from under them when plotting the second half to the second season. If Kyle did protest that early, then it wasn't considered by Frost and company. They were still structuring Audrey linked to Cooper.

Harley Peyton in a Wrapped in Plastic interview states...

"Mark and I figured out the best thing would be to have Cooper become passionately involved with Audrey. To have a big affair. That was what all our mail was about, and that's where it was all headed. It seemed like a great thing to do next - to have the love affair carry the show for about six episodes. We had planned it, but unfortunately Kyle refused to do it. So we ended up with no second season! Every story that you saw for those five episodes was meant to be secondary and really unimportant story. Suddenly that is all we had. And we had nothing to replace it."

he goes on to how easy the show was to produce with the sets and the actors, and then Eric Stoltz questions-

Stoltz: Well then, how come Kyle refused to cooperate?

Peyton: A very good question.

WIP: We had heard that he didn't feel his character should be involved with someone who was supposedly under age. I don't know how true that is.

Peyton: Oh, Kyle! I don't know! You'd have to ask him.

WIP: So then you brought in Annie Blackburne.

Peyton: Yeah, the one who was the saint! [Laughter] She came out of a nunnery! [Peyton rolls his eyes] It was ridiculous. It was just a mess. It was a mess! And once Kyle was allowed to do that, all the actors felt that they should determine their storylines, too. Who could blame them?

Even if Kyle felt that way in the first season, it was not apparent enough to the writers to stop them from plotting out a bulk of the second season.

[Audrey Horne]

blair, also no one's opinion is wrong, but weird that you felt the bedroom scene is when the romance ended. I always thought (and assumed the writers thought) that this is when they were deepening the connection beyond the flirty cat and mouse scenes and making it a deeper, richer connection. And it's a basic tennet to drama, especially in a serial/soap opera: keep your lovers apart.

[bosguy1981]

Even if Kyle felt that way in the first season, it was not apparent enough to the writers to stop them from plotting out a bulk of the second season.

Yeah, it definitely seems like all this drama unfolded during Season 2. And Lynch talked about his disappointment with some of the actors (though never naming names) in one or two interviews. I remember one where he said something to the effect of, "You learn a lot about your cast when you go into the second season of a popular show."

It's been said that certain cast members got big egos after all the great press and ratings of the first seven episodes, and became difficult as the second season went into production. And when that happens, even the "well-behaved" cast members can start to feel upset that other people are getting special treatment.

I have to believe that sort of friction and ego on the part of some of the actors was one of the things that soured Lynch on continuing with the series. I don't think it was the primary problem by any means, but just think about how different it must have felt for him making season 2. The network people suddenly want to dictate storylines (revealing Laura Palmer's killer), the actors want to dictate storylines... what a mess.